Commons:Categories for discussion/Archive/2008/06

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Archive June 2008

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Category:Italy - France, 17 Jun 2008

Rename to "France - Italy, 17 Jun 2008" - France was named as the official "home" team for this match and so should be named first in the category's title. - PeeJay (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

• Does any fucker actually read this thing? Can we move the category now? PeeJay (talk) 18:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

 Done --Ahonc (talk) 20:15, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

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Category:Thamshavnsbanen

Proposing moving to Category:Thamshavnbanen. Current naming is a spelling mistake, per en:Thamshavnbanen and this publication [1]; the second 's' (acting as a genitive) is not part of the name, but this may be a common spelling mistake. --Arsenikk ^(talk) 15:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. However, there is IMO no need for a formal discussion about this — just move it and tag it for speedy deletion. --Kjetil_r 17:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for the advice :) Arsenikk ^(talk) 19:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

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Gone. Rocket000 (talk) 02:20, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

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Category:Varaždin castle

Replaced with Category:Old Town, Varaždin --Suradnik13 07:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

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Deleted as empty. Rocket000(talk) 18:00, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

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Category:Eating animals

It is somewhat ambiguous whether 'animals' are the subject or object (they are the subject). Category:Animals eating would be less ambiguous and sounds more natural. This also applies to the subcategories category:eating cats, category:eating dogs, category:eating animals in art. When one sees a name like 'eating cats' it isn't clear that the category isn't actually of people eating cats. Richard001 09:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I noticed this too and agree it would be better changed. --MichaelMaggs 10:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I made a comment on the talk page about a year ago now that I look at the date. Is there a bot to help with the recategorizing? I don't really feel like doing this myself... Richard001 10:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Completely agree, but as I was in the middle of preparing the move commands for SieBot, I discovered Category:Cat behavior. I think a lot more need to be renamed. We have lots of "<verb> <animal>" that are ambiguous and usually worded the other way, like Category:Hunting cats. Eating cats sounded kinda, um, interesting before seeing what it actually was. :) Rocket000 (talk) 19:35, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we should have a naming convention on this sort of thing, but can we just move the 'eating Xs' to 'Xs eating' for now? Richard001 (talk) 08:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

OK. I'm doing the eating ones. Rocket000 (talk) 02:27, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

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Renamed. (Should have close this awhile ago.) Rocket000(talk) 18:04, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

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Category:Ruins in Ancient Orient

Ungrammatical name. --Sumerophile 19:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

It's empty, too. Has it been moved somewhere else? If so, where? --rimshot^talk 14:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

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Deleted Rocket000(talk) 18:01, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

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Category:Russia - Greece, 14 Jun 2008

Greece was named as the official home team for this fixture, and so should be named first in the category's title. — PeeJay (talk) 20:30, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that is true, see UEFA official tournament schedule. /Ainali (talk) 20:52, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

 Done--Ahonc (talk) 20:18, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

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Category:Mayors from New Orleans

I wish to state my objection to today's move of "Category:Mayors of New Orleans" and its contents to "Category:Mayors from New Orleans". The new name IMO sounds absurd (what does it refer to-- perhaps a mayor of some city in another state who was born in New Orleans?) and some of the parent categories now seem non-existant. There was no discussion about renaming this category on the talk page nor immediate parent categories before the move. I request a reversal of this move. -- Infrogmation (talk) 17:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

There was no need for a DRCFD. It's being changed back. Simple mistake. Rocket000 (talk) 17:58, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Leave this open a bit in case there's any similar ones. It will give us a place to discuss the "from/of" issue in general. Rocket000 (talk) 18:05, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I just had a look through the related categories. I agree all or most "politicians by place" categories should use "of" and not "from". It makes more sense and avoids confusion about whether they are (for example) the a cities' mayor or simply some mayor that happens to live(d) in that city. We have things like Category:Senators of the United States from New York which show how it can be both. Rocket000 (talk) 18:26, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree. I think "(Office) of (Place)" rather than "from" is probably better for most elective offices (eg, "Governors of Missouri" rather than "Governors from Missouri". "People from (place)" may be a good overall convention, but exceptions should be alllowed when other wording makes more sense. IMO conventions are good guidelines, but shouldn't be pushed to absolute uniformity if it comes at the expense of clear language and logical description. -- Infrogmation (talk) 19:08, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

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Closing for the archive. Rocket000(talk) 18:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

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Category:Kharkiv

There is rename war going on between Russian-speaking and Ukrainian-speaking users abdout naming this category in English (transliteration from Russian or Ukrainian). Lengthy discussion on Russian could be found on Category talk:Kharkov.

Last rename was made by User:Ahonc who represent Ukranian speaking group. I think this is not appropriate and decision should be made by neutral side.

Unfortunately we still doesn't have technical ability to keep both sides happy (category names translation).

EugeneZelenko (talk) 15:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• Support. But there is another border laying, not exact in language difference but in political vector only. Kharkov and it`s area is the city of overwhelming majority of Russian-speaking people at least in several centuries - both Ukrainians and Russians. So if you want to satisfy that city inhabitants, you should rename the Category:Kharkiv to its normal name 'Kharkov'. But if you want to spread momentary external hypernationalist`s vector then stay. I think it is shameful for Wikipedia to glide away according to just another Great Party directives. Rename Category:Kharkiv please. (sorry my poor English) Nickpo (talk) 17:04, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

  But Ukraine has only one official language — Ukrainian. And Ukrainian language has its romanization system; according this system the word Харків romanizes as Kharkiv but not Kharkov. And also the article in English Wikipedia has the name Kharkiv. ( Oppose).--Ahonc (talk) 17:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

  Kharkov City has two official languages — Ukrainian and Russian. --80.249.229.48 15:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

  Please give source.--Ahonc (talk) 15:45, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

  S'il vous plaît Lenta.ru Сдобников А. (talk) 18:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

  What's ironic is that they use "Kharkiv" in the link. ;-) --Akhristov (talk) 02:56, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

  06.03.2006. According to the official website of the city council, the Kharkov City Council has adopted on Monday, March 6, a decision to assign to Russian the status of a regional language. 53 City Council members voted for, with 3 voting against the decision. From now on, all paper work in the territory of Kharkov will be conducted in two languages: Russian and Ukrainian. As the regional language, Russian can be used in preschool and school training and in higher education. Names of streets will be repeated in Russian too.

Vladimir Shumilkin, Mayor of Kharkov has stressed that the decision to assign the official status to Russian was made taking into account the current Ukrainian legislation.

According to the information of the Central Administrative Board of Statistics in the Kharkov area, over 65 percent of Kharkov population consider Russian to be their native language, while 91,5 percent are fluent in it.

Сдобников А. (talk) 18:54, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

• O_O. Shumilkin? Mayor of Kharkiv is Mikhail Dobkin.Ahonc (talk) 21:27, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

  Since 2006. And follow this:

6 марта 2006 года горсовет Харькова, первым из местных советов юго-восточных регионов Украины, принял решение признать русский язык региональным [2] Позже горсовет отклонил протест прокурора [3], а 6 февраля 2007 областной Апелляционный суд отказал в жалобе прокурору, оставив решение городского совета в силе. [4] 4 июля 2007 сессия Харьковского горсовета в уставе города закрепила положение, что русский язык на территории города Харькова является региональным.Харьковский горсовет признал русский региональным языком

So since July, 4th, 2007 Kharkov is officially a bilingual region according to the City Charter. Russian is the regional language and Ukrainian is the state language. Any more questions? Just ask. Nickpo (talk) 00:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

• Be careful: not official. It correct name is state language. And it isn`t strong directive for Wikipedia: we aren`t state. Nickpo (talk) 22:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

  Due to Wikipedia articles Ukrainian is official language.--Ahonc (talk) 15:45, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

  Wiki-articles are not legal source for coming to a decision. Look at origin sources: term state language is there. Nickpo (talk) 01:22, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

  And what difference for this discussion? (Что это меняет?)--Ahonc (talk) 16:24, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

  Wikipedia is not state and we should see majority of origin sources. Correct name: Kharkov. Nickpo (talk) 17:53, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

  Wikipedia is not a state, but Ukraine is a state and it has one state language: Ukrainian, and Kharkiv is not a state (not yet?), it is part of Ukraine, that's why it use the state language Ukrainian.--Ahonc (talk) 18:18, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

  Kharkov incidentally is part of East-European (Russian) plain too. Why shouldn't we to use this logique to rename? :o) The same thing. Nickpo (talk) 19:07, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

• Tell me why Commons must not use Romanization system which uses en.wikipedia?--Ahonc (talk) 15:47, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

  Cause Commons is not en.wiki - it unites all wikies including uk.wiki, ru.wiki and so on. Nickpo (talk) 01:17, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

  If it is so, why do we not call categories with local names: Київ, Москва etc?--Ahonc (talk) 16:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

  Cause there are source consensus with naming of Moscow. It's easy to understand, isn't it. Nickpo (talk) 17:57, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. There was a long discussion on the English Wikipedia's Talk:Kharkiv where it was decided that Kharkov should be renamed to Kharkiv with evidence that it is more established in most major English language publications a couple of years ago (i.e. Brittanica, among others. F—dima/s-ko/ 18:31, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. Харків відтепер та назавжди тільке українське місто. Хай москалі переіменують не Харків а свою Москву. --Dooo (talk) 13:18, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Please don't use offensive slurs. --Kuban kazak (talk) 15:43, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support. There is only loose consensus on en.wiki to keep at Kharkiv and not Kharkov, moreover a simple google test of Kharkiv vs Kharkov will show the latter's dominance. Internet domains are .kharkov.ua The fact that the whole city speaks Russian is another weight that cannot be ignored. Personally Kharkov should be treated as an established English name as is the case with places like Kiev and Odessa, or indeed Warsaw, Munich and Moscow. --Kuban kazak (talk) 15:43, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
  • English name is Moskow (engl.), not Moskva (russ.) In Russia state official language Russian - support to Moskva?. --80.249.229.48 16:01, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
    • English name is Moscow not Moskow, and exactly Commons does not have Category:Moskva but Category:Moscow. Here Kharkov is the English name, Kharkiv is the Ukrainian name.--Kuban kazak (talk) 16:12, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
      • Why do you decide that Kharkov is English name? For example, Britannica uses name Kharkiv.--Ahonc (talk) 16:19, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
        • Britannica uses Kharkiv (engl.), also Kharkov (engl.), also Charkov (engl.). See also Websters, Muller Dictionary (2007) - Kharkov. --80.249.229.48 17:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
          • But article name there is Kharkiv.--Ahonc (talk) 17:26, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
            • Write to Britannica and rename it please. It's wrong, look at majority sources. Nickpo (talk) 17:50, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
              • Why? I like this name and you dislike it. That's why you need write to Britannica :) --Ahonc (talk) 21:18, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
                • I like correct names so I don't like any sources which walks away from common sense area due to politics. Nickpo (talk) 00:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. On Сommons we commonly use English for the system of categorization. The English Wikipedia category calls w:Category:Kharkiv, respectively, and we should call it so on Commons. Similarly, since in the English Wikipedia currently category is called w:Category:Kiev, respectively, and here it should be called Category:Kiev, not Category:Kyiv. --Yakudza (talk) 16:43, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. Kharkiv is more established in English language! Mariah-Yulia (talk)
  • Kharkov is much more esablished in English (6 370 000 for Kharkov in google) then Kharkiv (1 940 000 for Kharkiv). --Russianname (talk) 04:38, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
    • That is because before Ukrainian independence that name was used more. Now when I look at a map made in W-Europe the city is always called Kharkiv. I wonder why you now better then my what is established in the English language while my neighboring country is England... I know W-Europe better then you mate... I live there... Mariah-Yulia (talk)
      • Sure: "before Ukrainian independence that name [Kharkov] was used more" and it is now much more widely used (google was invented after Ukrainian independence and 6 370 000 pages with name "Kharkov" were written after 1991 too). The name "Kharkov" was and is more established in English. --Russianname (talk) 06:26, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support. All arguments were presented previously. The new administrator (formerly desysoped in Ukrainian wikipedia) begins his administrative carrier here with neglect towards the opinion of other users who supported the category name "Kharkov" (view Category_talk:Kharkov). --Russianname (talk) 04:38, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support. Per above arguments. Kharkov is much more frequently used and is much more known world over. The English Wikipedia category should be changed to Kharkov as well, it is strange that it has been changed into Kharkiv at some point. Leonid Dzhepko --Л.П. Джепко (talk) 07:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support. Kharkov is historical name of the old town (more then 300 years it is only Kharkov). And what about kossak Kharko? :-)

But Google give: 6 370 000 Kharkov vs. 1 940 000 Kharkiv

More, famous scientific searcher Google Scholar know: 67,500 for Kharkov - but Kharkiv 7,290.

It is real reputation of Kharkov .

Is it sufficient? Alexandrov (talk) 09:47, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

• Support. Kharkov - this is historical name of the city, Kharkiv - only translation.I am from Kharkov. Most people spoke Russian. Канопус Киля (talk) 10:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

  Spoke? And now don't speak?--Ahonc (talk) 12:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

  "According to the information of the Central Administrative Board of Statistics in the Kharkov area, over 65 percent of Kharkov population consider Russian to be their native language, while 91,5 percent are fluent in it." Nickpo (talk) 14:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• Support. Lived in Kharkov for 4 years - nobody named it "Kharkiv"--Hmel' (talk) 11:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support When I studied English, the city has always called on it as «Kharkov» --Butko (talk) 12:15, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose: in English Wikipedia the city is called Kharkiv, and, as Commons is using English Wikipedia category system, it's logical to keep the name Kharkiv. Also, in Ukraine, the one and only official state language is Ukrainian, and in the official cartographic sources from Ukraine the city is called Kharkiv. That's enough. Роман Беккер (talk) 12:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

  Now in English Wikipedia the city is called Kharkiv/Kharkov; the article name was Kharkov and has been renamed back and forward three times. --Vizu (talk) 15:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

  Not in Kharkov area. Nickpo (talk) 14:16, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• Support. All my arguments see this: Category talk:Kharkov. In addition, the article name was Kharkov and has been renamed back and forward three times, and - what's interesting - in almost all Wikipedias, irrespective of language. In addition, English language rules cannot be determined with a politicized voting. In addition, many voting persons have never been to Kharkov, some of them have a vague idea at all where our city is located but do know how it should be named! --Vizu (talk) 15:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. Kharkiv is standard in the English language, it is feautured in major encyclopedias and maps. Moreover, there will be confusion between a category here and the city name elsewhere, where there is an established name Kharkiv. There is enough confusion as it is without adding this one, motivated not by common sense and prevailing English spelling usage but by Ukrainian politics. --Hillock65 (talk) 19:23, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

  {{Userbox |id= [[Зображення:Fofudja01.jpg|45px|none|]] |id-c = #FF8000 |id-fc = |id-s = 14 |info = ''' <span style='color: gold'>Етат (І.З.І.Ж.Б.К.) пользаватєль - староннік </span> [[Фофуддя|<span style='color: gold'>Святой ^{<small>МП</small>} Фофудіі</span>]]''' |info-c = #FF0000 |info-fc = |info-s = 8 |border-c = red }}- your userbox is "Ukrainian politics"? Kharkiv is not standard in English, but "politic" standard in "Масква-МП-пользаватель" language. --80.249.229.48 19:34, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

  • I guess we cannot count votes with nationalistic assaults, right? Or some users would like to say that ethnic slurs are OK in the discussion?--Russianname (talk) 06:26, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
    • I concur, the above nationalistic assault of the anonimous user has no place in WP and should be disregarded. --Hillock65 (talk) 12:47, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Що, москальска фафудья не подобається? Скільки ж вас осирає Вкраїну. Як клопи. А Харків назавжди наш, та й назавжди Харків. --Dooo (talk) 15:49, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support per all arguments above. Kharkov in English is prononced and wrote Kharkov, not Kharkiv. Serebr (talk) 02:12, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose per DDima and Hillock65. Kharkiv is a well-established name in the English language. --Akhristov (talk) 13:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Kharkiv is not a well-established name in the English. --80.249.229.48 12:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support. If Kharkov should be renamed to Kharkiv, then, we have to rename Category:Cities and villages in Kiev Oblast, Category:Kiev, Category:Cities and villages in Odessa Oblast and all subcategories and pages that involve old English spellings Kiev and Odessa. --Michael Romanov (talk) 17:33, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
• Comment. I have a question. Why is it that whenever Wikipedia has votes like these, people from ruwiki start showing up and pushing for their POV? It's a Ukraine-related topic after all, not a Russia-related one. --Akhristov (talk) 04:19, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

As for me, I am a Ukrainian citizen. Should not I? Or cannot I? Why? --Michael Romanov (talk) 07:33, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Wiki is international, not national proect. But I'm from Ukraine too. And?

Why we do not transliterate Україна as Ukraijna but use traditional form Ukraine ?

People must recognize the all old (traditional) objects (Google Scholar know: 67,500 for Kharkov - but Kharkiv 7,290), and don't everyday rename traditional names for interests of some political activists. Alexandrov (talk) 10:59, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Why do you think that we must write Ukraijna? --Ahonc (talk) 13:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there are plenty of Russian-speaking Ukrainians, including me. But there are also plenty of Russians (Kuban kazak as an example, he doesn't even live in Ukraine, yet he votes here). Sure, people need to recognize traditional names, but Wikipedia is the place for that. Commons should go by the article name that's used in enwiki, to avoid confusion. As for "Ukraine", it is a name, not a traditional form, and is recognized as such internationally, which is why there's no renaming controversy about it. Also, Google tests can only do so much. What are the odds of most of those sites being English translations of Russian pages on Russian servers? Google only shows 100 pages of results, the search tests are worthless. --Akhristov (talk) 12:25, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

We doesn't live in Kharkov. Traditional names - Kharko City. --80.249.229.48 12:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Got any credible sources that Kharkov is the correct international name instead of Kharkiv? --Akhristov (talk) 12:37, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

You is the Kharkov citizen? No. Traditional names - Kharko(v). --80.249.229.48 12:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

What does that have to do with anything? --Akhristov (talk) 13:02, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

• It's Kharkiv on en.wp, it should be Kharkiv on Commons. Samulili (talk) 12:08, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

It is funny that most of the people claiming that Kharkiv is not a standard English name write with grammar and spelling mistakes. That shows that people are motivated by politics, not by their knowledge of the English language and names that are common there. --Hillock65 (talk) 13:12, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

• It is normal discission?? - [5], [6] --Vizu (talk) 14:50, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

That sentence is absurd. The word Харьков formed from Харько + ов, and Харків from Харко + ів (Kharko + iv). All two words formed from Kharko. P.S. learn English and than discuss about English names.--Ahonc (talk) 15:03, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

It's WP:OR + WP:PA. Nickpo (talk) 15:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Where is original research? It is etymology of the words. And where is personnal attack? User doesn't know basic knowledge of English and tells us how this word spells in English.--Ahonc (talk) 16:19, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Please comment on content, not on the contributor. And don't be so stubborn just see another etymology version above. Nickpo (talk) 22:08, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

It is not original research, and there's no such thing as "another etymology version". People above are basically claiming that Ukrainian does things incorrectly, while, in fact, they have no idea what they're talking about. Let's keep things simple. Kharkov and Kharkiv are identical words in different languages, and there are certain rules in Ukrainian which caused the spelling variation. And Kharkiv is a Ukrainian city, no matter how many Russian-speaking people live there. Makes sense? --Akhristov (talk) 02:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

• Support, why the Ukrainion translation, which nobody use must be named of my city? 92.113.136.165 20:48, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

---

Closed. Regardless of all above arguments, category names will be in English. Gallery names can be in the native language. You can create a soft redirect from categories local names to th English names. Siebrand 08:15, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

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Category:1996 statues

Empty category. Adequately covered by Category:20th century statues. --InfantGorilla (talk) 07:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Deleted. --Ahonc (talk) 14:18, 4 July 2008 (UTC)