Commons talk:Photo challenge/Archives/2014

Archives 2013 • 2014 • 2015

Extending the deadline

Should we close the December challenges now or leave them a little longer till the holidays are over? Anna reg has some pics taken for the challenge but yet to upload. I thought the duration (a month) was reasonably clear but see we didn't explicitly say the images must be uploaded in December only. So it might be reasonable to allow people some time to upload. I'm more keen to be generous for images taken for the challenge during December rather than images taken earlier but not yet uploaded -- since there's no excuse for them being late. Thoughts anyone? -- Colin (talk) 16:18, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

I think we can give one more week. Jee 16:26, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

I've added a note extending it over the coming weekend. I think that should be enough time. If anyone needs more then shout. -- Colin (talk) 22:59, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Could we still upload pictures taken before December? I spent the end of December out photographing rather than editing. :-P And plus the allowance of pre-December photos in the first place was more of a concession to the fact that it's impossible to tell when a photo was taken rather than an intent of the contest, so I don't see why this argument shouldn't still apply, i.e. someone could still manipulate the EXIF date. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 06:19, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

It seems you are confused by the allowance provided. Any "own work", "not previously uploaded to Commons prior to the challenge start date" is eligible. The purpose of that "allowance of extending to one more week" is "to allow people time to submit any photos taken during December". That's all. Jee 06:31, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

@Jee : "Submissions must be your own work and not previously uploaded to Commons prior to the challenge date" doesn't mean the pictures may be taken during the challenge month but just uploaded during the month... --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 07:26, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes; just uploaded during the month, and now upto January 5.Jee 07:52, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm not confused by the wording of the allowance. I'm just arguing that "taken during December" is an unenforceable restriction, so any photos should be still allowed. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 07:30, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. Jee 07:52, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Closed for voting. Colin and Dschwen, could you link the voting pages to the main page if they are ready? Jee 06:08, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

January theme

I am struggling a little with the Jan themes. The "bunch of stuff" works well. But when I went to look at the category for Frost (or ice) I see Commons has loads of pictures so am not sure now. The other suggestion "The four elements in Winter: air (sky, clouds); water (rain and sea); fire (storms, lightening); earth (frozen land, snow, ice)" seems very general and might allow just about any winter-themed picture. I'm not convinced about fire (other than a warm one inside) as storms aren't fire and lightning is a summer weather. We have plenty opportunity throughout the year for pictures of wet weather (in the UK certainly). Since Jan/Feb are often the coldest months (in the north) I wanted to take advantage of their seasonal attributes compared to other cold-wet months. We also have lots of pictures of snowy landscapes so wanted to avoid those. I think a specific small subject helps creativity and concentrates the images round a tight theme, which will help when judging. Ideas? -- Colin (talk) 16:18, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

For northern-hemisphere people, winter is the best time for cityscapes/skylines because office lights are still on at sunset. (There are also a slew of other advantages, e.g. the air is often clearer and sunrises/sunsets tend to be more colorful at winter, snow is always a plus for places that have it cf. File:Montreal Twilight Panorama 2006.jpg, etc.) It's not going to work for our Australian/South American/African photographers, but then again we don't have to accommodate everyone, and besides, at least southern-hemisphere people can actually photograph something (which may not be the best) as opposed to people in tropical areas given a snow theme. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 05:10, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

If we are going to have seasonal themes, can we please have two alternatives? It is summer here. HelenOnline 13:38, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

There will always be challenges where some people are excluded from participating. Either due to climate or city/country or equipment, etc. I would like there to be always one challenge where most people feel they can participate (e.g. the "bunch of stuf"). I wouldn't want us to be forced to include everyone all the time or to try always to balance with opposing themes, say. There is no reason to just have two challenges, though. Are there enough southern-hemisphere participants to make a viable challenge if we target one for them? If we only get 6 photos then it doesn't work. And what about if the challenge gets swamped by us northern-hemisphere folk uploading old holiday photos and not really participating in the challenge to go out and take something? Should we restrict seasonal challenges to photographs this season? At the end of the day, the Photo Challenge isn't the only reason one might take pictures and upload them to Commons -- we have FP/VI/QI to celebrate good photos too. -- Colin (talk) 15:13, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm thinking of going with "Frost and ice" (along with "Bunch of stuff") unless anyone jumps in with a better suggestion. I'd like it to exclude snowy landscape pictures, though, just to keep the scope small. I don't want to delay launching the January theme much longer. -- Colin (talk) 15:20, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

• I suggest something more general than "frost and ice" because the subject leaves behind the photograpgers living in temperate countries. What about "storm" or "winter"? -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 15:40, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Well "winter" also excludes. I really don't like very general themes like "winter" or to exclude themes just because some people can't participate. And "storm" isn't a good challenge theme imo because it is so unpredictable and opportunistic -- we'll just get people looking over their Ligthroom catalogue for stormy pictures, rather than going out to take something new. The problem with a very general theme is the entries will be very random and hard to judge, and it doesn't focus the photographer in any creative way. One might as well say "take a picture outdoors" for all that. I'd much rather add a third theme for people in other climates than to restrict ourselves to bland themes. Aspects of our seasonal weather make great photographic themes, albeit one with issues in an international community. Let's not waste the chance to have some specific January theme. If the southern hemisphere folk want to suggest a third theme for them ... -- Colin (talk) 16:11, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

You can have frosting and ice cream in temperate climates ;-). Just saying there is always a way to get creative, and I'm sure if the idea is original enough it will be applauded rather than lawyered out of the competition. --Dschwen (talk) 16:28, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps but the point remains that some themes will have in-built restrictions on participation and I'd rather than have that flabby themes that absorb practically any outdoor photo taken in the last two months. -- Colin (talk) 17:06, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Yeah. I agree. --Dschwen (talk) 18:14, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Going back to the specifics, "frost and ice except snowy landscapes" just seems overly convoluted and somewhat ill-defined (what constitutes a snowy landscape?). Does anyone have a better way of putting the same idea? -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 18:30, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

• Sorry to insist, but "frost and ice" seems more restrictive to me than "winter", and much more than "storm". Yes, we can find subjects other than the atmospheric/oceanic ones (e.g. ice cubes and icecrem) but they will remain a small minority. In practical terms, the subejct will be almost restricted to people living in the northern part of the northern hemisphere. -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 19:36, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes, we did understand that. The point brought forward by Colin is that we have more than one theme and it is not required that everyone can contribute to every theme. This forced equality type of fairness is in practice unattainable anyways. So let's nit try to dull down the topics. --Dschwen (talk) 19:42, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

But that's the point, Alvesgaspar. Please let's have several running themes if it makes people happy. Some universally applicable and some that perhaps a minority can participate with -- as long as that minority is big enough to make the contest worth running. We've had suggestions above (like birds, or concerts, or sports) that won't appeal to everyone either. Let's remember that a month ago we had no photo challenge and so no themes that appealed to anyone at all, but that didn't stop people taking pictures and uploading them. Perhaps in future we can have some voting system for themes that may help gauge likely levels of participation and keenness. At the moment we just have to pick a few themes and get something going. What about "close up frost" -- the Google Image Search results for that are very attractive. -- Colin (talk) 19:45, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

• OK, go ahead, I got the point. But "close-up frost" (that is, "ice crystals") is a very specialized theme only possible to few photograpers. Alvesgaspar (talk) 20:31, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Maybe. I'd still like to try running a specialised theme to see what happens. If we get only 6 entries then it will have failed. Could someone suggest a third theme for January then. It doesn't need to be "the opposite hemisphere" climate theme. It could be something for everyone too. And if you want to suggest a big flabby unrestricted theme, then we could try that and see how well it works too :-) -- Colin (talk) 20:38, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

How about making the third theme just a color combination theme, like Turquoise and yellow or Orange and silver. You'd get a variety of entries for sure. --Mjrmtg (talk) 21:49, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

There's a violent hail storm with thunder outside my house right now. We've had lots of stormy weather and more is forecast. The 10-day forecast for me shows no frost. Hmm. What do I know. -- Colin (talk) 11:54, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Except in the freezer, that's the same here... Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 14:42, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

This news is why I'm not happy about running "Storm" as a "Challenge": "searches resumed in south Devon for missing 18-year-old university student Harry Martin who was last seen leaving his home to take photographs of the weather, with more than 100 people volunteering to look for him... In Aberystwyth, Dyfed a man was rescued by lifeboat after he defied police warnings and became trapped when photographing waves from a harbour jetty.". -- Colin (talk) 09:21, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Today, I came across February (from the Window in My Studio), 1948 by Josef Sudek in a book on photography. Since we haven't come to any strong consensus for the second theme for January, I'm just going to bounce the problem back at the contributors. The second theme will be "January". The photograph should reflect something of that month in the opinion of the photographer. And I'm going to try out restricting this challenge theme to photographs taken by the nominator in January 2014. The other theme "Bunch of stuff" will be open to any self-made picture not yet on Commons and uploaded during January 2014. If necessary we can extend the upload deadline if required. -- Colin (talk) 14:08, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Excellent idea. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:08, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't like the restriction to photos taken in January 2014. I took some pretty good photos in January 2013, which was very snowy here, while this January so far hasn't been. Just expressing my opinion, you don't need to change anything of course. darkweasel94 12:07, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, I've got some interesting pictures from the end of december, which would fit in here seamlessly. It's a shame I can't enter them, but on the other hand now I've got a good reason to go out shooting again this month ;-) --El Grafo (talk) 17:30, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Most photo challenges online are absolutely restricted to new photos taken specifically for the challenge. Otherwise there is no "challenge", just a photo contest. My main intention on starting this was to inspire people to take new photos for Commons. However, I appreciate that people have photos they haven't uploaded for whatever reason and that this might encourage them to do so. There are some negatives to allowing "old photos" to be entered:

• People with a large photo archive are at a huge advantage in terms of the contest compared to people who have nothing and so have to attempt the challenge in the few weekends they have free during the month.
• If the challenge-attempters keep losing out to the archive-uploaders then they will give up taking images for the challenge. It then becomes no more than a themed photo contest.
• As a way of getting images out of these archives onto Commons, it is very inefficient as there are only a few challenge topics at any one time. The vast majority of images wouldn't meet the challenge criteria and would remain not uploaded.
• People might actually hold-off uploading images in case they can use them in some future challenge.

However, some theme subjects might be difficult or might be so lacking in existing material on Commons, that we need the contributions of existing archives in order to make the challenge viable and produce enough new pictures. Also, some people just might not be able to get out that month to take new pictures but could still participate with pictures they had already. So I'm experimenting and seeing if we can find a compromise. Perhaps we will continue to have some challenges with the restriction and some without. And so for some themes you are disappointed (because you already had good pictures and are unlikely to take better this month) but for others you may have an advantage (because this year the weather/holidays are good to you). Ultimately, I think those taking new pictures should get some boost to encourage them and thank them for their extra effort. -- Colin (talk) 20:29, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Capitalization

Just wondering about a really pedantic point - why is this page called "Photo challenge" while the subpages are capitalized "Photo Challenge"? Shouldn't that be unified? darkweasel94 15:56, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm now going to be bold and move the subpages to lowercase. If that breaks something unexpected, please scream. :) darkweasel94 11:23, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Advertising

After three days since the January voting started the number of votes is still very low. It would be nice to have some advertising in the usual places (FPC talk, QIC talk, VIC talk,...) as well as in other wikis. -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 12:43, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't really know how quickly voting will occur. It might take till the weekend before some people get the free time to review and vote. There are 120 photos to judge so it requires a bit more time than just a couple of FPCs. I sent a message to everyone who contributed an entry or participated on this talk page. And there's a watchlist notice too. I advertised the original Photo Challenge at COM:FP and en:FP, but not the month's. Feel free to send out more invitations on other forums you think suitable. Is there likely to be any language-barrier reasons why some people don't vote? For example, the instructions aren't clear to non-English speakers relying to GoogleTranslate. I don't know enough about translation efforts to know what the situation is. -- Colin (talk) 14:38, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I moved the instructions to Commons:Photo challenge/Voting header and enabled the Translate extension on it. The version in the language of the user (if it exists) is automatically used. Hope that helps, Jean-Fred (talk) 17:04, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Maybe a one-click javascript could be cooked up to make voting a quicker process? --99of9 (talk) 11:32, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Realistically the number of photos makes voting a significant time sink so most people aren't going to. Suggest introducing a panel that trims it down to say ten images before opening up for wider voting.Geni (talk) 01:25, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Another possibility is to simplify the voting process, e.g. choose 3 pictures without rating them. HelenOnline 16:14, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Monthly theme

I would be in favor of continuing this monthly theme for all the months in 2014. So, for example, the theme for February 2014 could be "February," etc. The other theme should be something that does not depend on the month (or at least not as much), e.g. still-lifes, portraits, wildlife, a technique (like "silhouette"), etc. What does everyone think? -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 01:40, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support I like the idea very much. For some months the theme will be more universal than others, e.g. Valentine's Day is in February everywhere. For other months, there is no seasonal bias. There are some ideas for monthly subjects in Digital Photography Month by Month by Tom Ang (see monthly topics on contents page via Look Inside facility on Amazon UK). HelenOnline 11:51, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
• I'm interested to see how this January theme turns out before committing to repeating it. A concern is a large number of entries will be indistinguishable from December or February. It might be something to try only 6 or 4 times a year. Are we going to keep with two simultaneous themes for now or have more? We're still at the experimental stage so trying a number of radically different themes may be more useful than settling into a pattern already. I wondered (considering Valentines day) whether "Love" would be a good theme to run in February. It might also encourage more people-pictures. -- Colin (talk) 12:25, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

  Perhaps we could give ideas to people for each monthly theme. So we could push the idea of love for people doing the "February" theme. Besides, for me at least December and January say "snow" much more than February does. February is also the month of the Horsetail Falls in Yosemite. And Chinese New Year... I think doing a monthly theme each month is fine and wouldn't get repetitive as long as people don't just interpret the month as merely being part of a season. If you just make a Valentine's Day theme, you're shutting out a lot of other possibilities for February-specific things. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 18:37, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

  I like having two themes. We could try it out for one whole year. We could also suggest that relevance to the particular month be a judging criteria for the "month" theme (it is for me). HelenOnline 19:08, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

It remains to be seen whether we are creative enough here or we just end up with "pictures I took in January". Yes we could list some suggestions for the month (as you give, and as the book Helen mentioned gives). Well the "Love" theme isn't just soppy Valentines, it is an emotion and can include friends and family too as well as objects and pastimes and eating and well.. lots of ideas. A month-theme can also be limiting in that all the things I just mentioned wouldn't suit. Really, the whole point of a challenge is that there are limitations to focus the image taking/selection so that's not a bad thing. And the photo challenge isn't the only motivation for people to take/upload photographs so if people want to take Chinese New Year pics then there is nothing stopping them. And there's nothing stopping us running six simultaneous themes if there are enough volunteers to review the entries/voting and enough participants. What we need is more participants on this talk page, though, as we need numbers to establish a consensus. The previous month we just had a few people with a few ideas. There's no easy way to resolve that. If we do decided the park one theme as "month" then I think we need to increase the numbers to 3 to give some more variety. -- Colin (talk) 19:21, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

• I prefer a diversity of tighter scopes, and agree with Colin that about 4 of these per year would be good. But let's see how the first one goes. --99of9 (talk) 21:56, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
• I frankly don't think that January or February are goods themes. Like Colin said, it may end up with "pictures I took in that month". I'm more and more convinced that my original suggestions (winter, storm) are much better because they are objective. On the same line, we could thing about "heat", "cold", "windy", "calm", "green", "blue" and so on. The problem with the subjective themes is that people will tend (even more) to vote on the pictures they prefer aesthetically, with no concern for the alleged compliance to the subject. How do we compare a picture with waves breaking on the rocks in the coast of Portugal with the beginning of the academic year in Brazil? By the way, "Valentine's Day", "Thanks Giving" and "Halloween" are American celebrations, not followed in the rest of the world... -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 22:37, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
• It's a bit the same here - I like the idea to have some of these themes, but e.g. for the now running January I#m blocked in ideas: In Germany and more parts of Europe we have 15°C+, no snow and no special weather in January in the moment and that will be the same for February (but maybe we will have snow then, donnow) and except the christian tradition of the biblical magi or the outtake of christmas trees on the streets there is nothing typical for January to illustrate - so thinking about that it really comes more to "What is my personal January 2013 and what pictures I took at that month" so maybe I will contribute pics from an evening concert I will visit today in Cologne ... -- Achim Raschka (talk) 07:32, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• I think looking at what we got for January is a good idea to help deciding if the theme could be continued for other/all months. I love the picture you linked to illustrate how you decided on that topic, but I think it's a theme that is really difficult if taken seriously and very easy if not... which brings me to another question - of course, deciding if a picture fits is always a bit difficult (e.g. is a picture of more or less white christmas decoration coloured light), but what do we do if we can't follow why somebody thought his picture would fit? Comment?

As you were discussing February (and possibly 'Love') - for me, as an Austrian, February means carnival and the traditional end of the ball season with mardi gras (Faschingsdienstag) - even though this year it's very late and actually ends at the beginning of March ()... Valentine's day does exist, but only as a new commercial tradition. Anna reg (talk) 07:43, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I think letting everyone write a very brief explanation of what they're trying to go for would help. And your mention of Faschingsdienstag is exactly why I think month-based themes are beneficial: they let everyone create their own interpretation of the theme, so that we aren't fixated on a particular culture. And if people explain what they're doing, hopefully images that are merely "I took this in February" won't get too much support. (Using the two current themes as examples, this looks optimistic; I see quite a few "wow"-ful images that don't capture the theme too well and they don't have many votes.) -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 07:49, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

• Mostly per Alvesgaspar. I would prefer a plain theme rather than a vaguer related-to-the-current-month incentive. --Myrabella (talk) 10:09, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• I think that for now, we should try to find themes that aren't just the months. If we ever run out of ideas we can once again fall back to this. Months mean different things in different cultures and hopefully we'll find enough ideas for a few years; Anna reg gave a good example of what months mean in different cultures (indeed I also thought of Mardi Gras long before thinking of Valentine's Day), but indeed I'm not very opposed even to themes based on seasons: if we alternate them such that each climate zone and hemisphere gets treated fairly, that isn't very different from the culturally dependent themes that we've already set a precedent for in December with "colored lights" (and I do hope that we won't have a majority of Western cultural themes in the long term). darkweasel94 23:12, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Excuse me, but we've run four themes with an emphasis on experimentation. So how on earth has a "precedent" been set in what universe is "coloured light" a "Western cultural theme". I'm getting tired of the bickering and moaning over cultural or geographic issues. No theme can prevent or discourage anyone from taking a picture or uploading it to Commons. If you feel left out, run another theme. Be my guest. -- Colin (talk) 19:35, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I think I kind of expressed that in a bad way. I didn't mean to criticize anything at all, really. This theme was entirely ok. darkweasel94 19:53, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

February themes

As we only have a week left until February, I wanted to restart the discussion about next month's challenges. Any suggestions/concrete wishes?
There were some people wishing for human topics - perhaps we should try one of those? Action verbs, sports, jobs, concerts/entertainment and emotions were already suggested - I could also imagine something like traditions, which wouldn't necessarily be as people oriented, but I'd prefer that a bit later (perhaps in April, as there are a lot of more or less undocumented traditions associated with Easter). Anna reg (talk) 00:46, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

I like the "traditions" theme. But maybe you're right and we should do it later. Here are my two suggestions:

• Textures
• Contradictions

Looking forward to the next round ;-) --Frank Schulenburg (talk) 02:32, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

If we're looking for themes without founding ideas may be we can shortcut to the number of the month : 2 for feb ? 2 colors, 2 things, 2 persons, 2 something... Or twin things ?

Or, why not, the history of the name February or dictums, sayings, proverbs, adages ? In France we have some ans I guess in the rest of the world too. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 16:11, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

I like the two things idea - all the more, as I saw a lovely motive today (unfortunately I didn't have my camera with me) - an empty doll stroller next to an empty stroller... I still don't know how they manage to use both... ;->
About the textures - I thought of structures, but I think both are too similar to this month's theme to use in February... on the other side you could say something similar for the two things... Anna reg (talk) 02:00, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

As we need 'awards' for our winners, Colin suggested running that as a challenge. I like the idea, but perhaps we could run it as an additional creative challenge with even more flexible rules. After all, it isn't a photo challenge and doesn't necessarily have to run for a whole month - and perhaps it could even be something between a brainstorming platform and a challenge, allowing/promoting collaborations during the challenge...

What do you think? And we still have to decide on the other two topics for February... ;->

Anna reg (talk) 16:27, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

December 2013 winners

Coloured light: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Author	Colin	XRay	Colin
Score	35	25	20

Silhouette: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Author	Julian Herzog	Duke of W4	Abrget47j
Score	44	35	17

I've modified the votes page so that everything is visible. The scores page linked above details the scores for every image that got a vote. The scores page indicates what the result would be under other voting-weight systems. None of them would change the overall winner this time. Under the 321 voting system, about 60% of the images got some support. Under a top 1 voting system, about 30% of the images would get some support.

Well. What do you think? My wife thinks it's a fix :-). -- Colin (talk) 23:13, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Interesting results - thanks for doing the evaluation! You are really the driving force behind the challenges... The 321 voting-weight system seems to work fine, but I'm not sure on what exactly you would like an opinion (how the votes should be evaluated or how we should vote in the next round).

By the way, congratulations on your first and third place! ;-> Anna reg (talk) 01:38, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Those pictures : 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 were uploaded in january not in december... Thought only pics uploaded during the month's challenge were in competition... Some votes could have been for other pics uploaded in time. It's a trail challenge I know but.. rules are rules.

It's the same for the current challenge : some pics were uplaoded before january. This part of the rules may be in bolt and big and red if you want everyone to follow it... IMAO.

Not uploaded in january : 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

--Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 05:33, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

There was a discussion (see above) to request an extension of the deadline for the December challenge. So that's why there are a few photos uploaded at the beginning of January. Since that was the first challenge, with rules only just being made up and written, and it was a holiday period, I was happy to be flexible. I don't see any reason to extend the January challenge, though. I agree having clear fixed rules is helpful and makes it fair for everyone.

As far as the current challenge is concerned, if there are pictures taken/uploaded too early then I'll remove them later today and inform the uploaders (unless someone else wants to volunteer!). The "Bunch of stuff" challenge is accepting photos taken any time but not uploaded to commons before January. The "January" challenge has an additional restriction that the photo must be taken in January. We're still experimenting with the rules to get a balance. We could try bold red 18pt text if you think it helps but some people just don't read instructions or may not have text in their native language. I'm sure once things settle and become routine then the rules will be clearer for everyone. But we'll still have people nominate images incorrectly so I would appreciate if the task of monitoring this was shared. Cheers, -- Colin (talk) 08:52, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Ah, OK, I forget this point... My bad... The pics listed above are in "A bunch of stuff". If written in red it can attract the attention of those who may not read. Even if not in their language Google is our friend .

Is it possible to create a template to be pasted in the talk page of who nominates a pic "out of time" ? Could be easier to warn/advise them. I can't create it (I don't know nothing about creating templates) but I can help watching entries and paste template if needed. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 17:45, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm no expert on templates. I can just about create a basic one but not with parameters (e.g. Challenge theme, offending image, etc). I've just hand-written a note each time. I had to remove a bunch from the other January theme too. :-( -- Colin (talk) 23:07, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Ok, that's the same work to c-p a template or an hand-written note .

I was asking myself if it wouldn't be appropriate to create a special page with all the tables as you made (but 2 columns per month) of all winners of past present and future competition...

--Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 00:14, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Congrats all winners and participants!!! Jee 09:54, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Voting

In a few days time, the January challenges will close and we can vote on them. Look at the scoring statistics for December (here and here). Are we happy to keep the 321 scoring system? Although a couple of voters made mistakes, that's to be expected anyway particularly with multi-language issues. Personally, I think it will be useful to keep 321 a while longer and keep looking at the scoring. If after several months it shows that 111 (i.e., just pick your top 3) has the same results then it might be worth going to that as it is simpler. I'm concerned that 100 (i.e, pick your top 1) will result in just a small number of images getting any love and so be demotivating to many. What do you think? -- Colin (talk) 09:41, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I prefer 321; but we can switch to 111, if the 321 system is difficult to manage. Jee 09:57, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I also think sticking to 321 is good. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 10:35, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I had a different idea for voting, but I'm not sure if it would work... I would like to have the possibility to show my appreciation to more than three pictures (and I didn't really like giving comments only). But if you can give points to as many pictures as you want, I think that the difference in points given must be a bit higher, which is why I thought of something similar to

• 1 star: nice picture
• 2 stars: very nice picture
• 3 stars: great picture
• 4 stars: excellent picture
• 5 stars: my favourite

I don't think that we would end up with many ties, if we encourage to use 5 (and 4 ?) points sparingly, but perhaps such a system would just make everything more difficult... ;-> Anna reg (talk) 15:58, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

+1 for voting for as many pictures as one likes. I've found it very difficult to find my three favourites – and finally ended up not voting at all. But I think I'd prefer 3 categories over the 5 you proposed. Personally, I'd even go one step further:

• 1 star for every picture you like
• a double star for your personal favourite

Or something inbetween, like a double star for 3 pics maximum and a triple star for your favourite, plus as many single stars as you like. However, I'd say let's give the current system at least another month for testing. --El Grafo (talk) 17:54, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

As we already started voting for the January themes, of course it should apply at the earliest for the February themes (but we should probably decide how the voting system we want to use looks like before February 22). And I can easily understand your frustration with selecting three pictures - while I have already managed to select my three favourites for 'January', I have only created a folder of about 10 favourites for 'A bunch of stuff' - and I know it will once again be a tough decision to decide which ones will deserve my points....
I'm not fixated on five categories - in fact, I think five is a bit much myself - I first thought of a system with four categories, but as a lot of grading systems use five, I proposed that. But I'd really like to be able to vote for several pictures. Your idea with limiting three and two stars, while allowing the use of as many single stars as you want sounds good, even though I think that that would mean that the scoring system should probably be changed from 321 (to something like 531??) as three times one star would mean a lot less then one time three stars... Anna reg (talk) 19:13, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Appreciations/awards

Can we appreciate the 1st, 2nd and 3rd winners for each theme? It would be ideal if we place barnstar in their talk page. If we agree, we can create different 3 barnstars/templates for them.

Here is a draft barnstar/award:

		Monthly Photo Challenge Winner
		I hereby award you for 1st place winner in monthly photo challenge, under Coloured light theme, in December 2013. --Anton·٠•●♥Talk♥●•٠· 06:27, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

It is not big enough :-)! Seriously, I do think we should have some award/notification like with FP/QI/VP. But since I'll be a recipient this month, I'll leave it to others to decide what. Thanks. -- Colin (talk) 08:54, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree on the award/notification and I like the draft. I wouldn't use the monthly in the title - the project is called photo challenge (and who knows, perhaps the challenges won't be really monthly, what with all those flexible rules... ;->) and perhaps we could use the camera used as challenge icon for the barnstar - I'll try if I can do that if I find the time... (I can't work with svg but I should be able to produce a png or jpg version...) Anna reg (talk) 18:26, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, I did try - but I didn't manage to get a transparent background. What do you think of something like that? Anna reg (talk) 19:02, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

A thought: it doesn't need to be a barnstar. The FP/QI/VI don't use a barnstar, nor does POTY (see Commons:Picture of the Year/2012). We could have an extra challenge in Feb to design the Gold/Silver/Bronze medals, aimed at the graphic design folk. Then we could choose a winning design. I'm not particularly attached to the camera used as a challenge icon -- I just quick picked something from Commons and it looked more professional then the compact camera :-). So someone could design a new Challenge icon and then the prizes could be based on it. -- Colin (talk) 20:01, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

• +1 on that. — Julian H.^✈(talk/files) 13:17, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
• Great idea :) --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 16:28, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

I tried something else - following the QI-notification. What do you think to something a bit like that? Anna reg (talk) 17:05, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

		Photo Challenge Winner
		Congratulations! Your picture Plasma globe 60th.jpg won the 1st place in the Photo Challenge Coloured light, in December 2013. You can find the results of the challenge here.

I think this is the best solution -- we can always improve it later as we are a wiki! Does someone else want to hand out the prizes as I'd rather not award myself :-). -- Colin (talk) 11:36, 1 February 2014 (UTC) Two more things. Should we give out awards for 2nd and 3rd place too? I think that might be nice as it makes more people winners. Secondly, we should create a template for the Image Description page to note that this image won the prize (1st/2nd/3rd) just like we do for FP/QI/etc. -- Colin (talk) 12:19, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, we should award 2nd and 3rd. Anna, could you create silver and bronze cameras for 2nd and 3rd places. I have awarded to 1st place winners of Coloured light & silhouette. --Anton^{·٠•●♥Talk♥●•٠·} 12:30, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I already tried - before uploading the gold one (I'm not as happy with them, but I think they are more or less okay). I'll upload them later today or tomorrow, as I'm not on my computer at the moment. Anna reg (talk) 21:09, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I'm back at my computer faster than I thought... so here are the pictures: &
If somebody can improve them, please do (the silver and bronze look a bit strange to me). - Oh, and thanks for distributing the awards, Anton! --Anna reg (talk) 21:46, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I just 'distributed' the awards for second and third place - with the same box as for the winners, just changing the title to Photo Challenge - Second Place/Third Place - and of course the camera colour. It would also be easy to use the cameras as picture in a template - or we could still try the graphic design challenge and look if there aren't some better options than my quick solutions. Anna reg (talk) 10:14, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Deadline for January?

Can somebody (Colin?) perhaps clarify when exactly the deadline for the January themes is supposed to be? I took it to be 2014-01-31, 23:59 UTC, but Achim Raschka has now added a nomination clearly already in UTC February. So, when exactly is or was the deadline? "May be extended a little into February if requested" isn't very clear. darkweasel94 10:27, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Well nobody requested extension and Commons generally runs on UTC AFAIK. Achim seems to be German so there's no huge timezone explanation. What is perhaps confusing is that the entry page hasn't been "closed". I'll get onto that. We have no bot to do these things and I have a real life :-). What do people think? Is there enough confusion that the entry page is still open that we should accept it, or should we be rigid about the challenge period? I'm personally predisposed to being generous if there is ambiguity. -- Colin (talk) 11:10, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Don't thought about that - even in Germany today is 1 February so if I'm beyond the deadline please delete the nominations (had no time in January to work with pics) The confusion really is about an open nomination page and the expanded deadline in December as well as the not yet startet February themes. -- Achim Raschka (talk) 11:21, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for making the decision. Sorry about confusion. I'm sure we'll get better organised eventually! It was a rather nice submission, though. -- Colin (talk) 11:46, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

No problem - I really like this contest, even if I do not have a good chance to win; I am very curious about the topic of february and hope to have more time this month. -- Achim Raschka (talk) 12:08, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

See the section above. I've asked Anna to pick this month, but the more help you can give her the better. -- Colin (talk) 12:21, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm just going to say that File:U6 Währinger Gürtel.jpg didn't make it into WLM because the upload process was completed two seconds too late for it to get into UTC+2 September. And I think this is okay, even though the contest rules had not made it clear if "September" meant UTC September or local September. I don't think it's unfair to set a rigid deadline. darkweasel94 14:03, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Commons is global. I think we should close each challenge when the last country of the world reaches 23.59 (Chatham Islands or Anadyr)) but some one may be awake at this time to do it if we don't have a bot. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 17:24, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

The places you've given as examples reach the end of the month ahead of UTC. If enwiki can be trusted, your rule would mean we have to use 23:59 of UTC-11:00, which is the last inhabited time zone to reach the end of the month, or UTC-12:00 if we allow uninhabited places. However, I think UTC is a good time zone for a global project, as it is is used as global time around the world and also on Commons (look at any of the signatures in this thread for proof). I think many people know how to convert their time zone to UTC, while converting to Niue time will be something fewer people are able to do without much thinking. darkweasel94 17:42, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes sorry, I was too speed to write... I wanted to say the FIRST country reaching 00.00 with my examples... Sorry... --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 18:05, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't aware WLM used local time but those are local contests. I think UTC is the best choice for us as Darkweasel explains. -- Colin (talk) 18:14, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

OT: WLM uses the earliest local time of the country. This means that Spain's contest ended according to UTC+1, not UTC+2, because the Canary Islands use UTC+1 as DST. At least that's how it was explained on IRC. If Austria only had some western colonies... darkweasel94 18:50, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Concurrent FPC and Photo Challenge voting

Please see Commons talk:Featured picture candidates#Concurrent FPC and Photo Challenge voting and comment over there. Thanks. -- Colin (talk) 12:20, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Voting considerations

I'd like to add some text to the voting page:

In addition to technical and artistic merit, voters should consider how well the photograph meets the challenge theme.

Does this seem reasonable. I don't want people just to vote for pretty pictures that have nothing to do with the theme, as that makes the challenge pointless and little different to FP/QI. However, I'm nervous about making changes to the translation template page -- last time I did that I not only broke the page but uncovered a MediaWiki bug that crashed the browser. Can anyone help? -- Colin (talk) 08:14, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good to me - but I fear that I have no more experience with translation template pages than you have. Anna reg (talk) 10:17, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

 Done − is that what you were expecting? Revision #115459789

Jean-Fred (talk) 12:37, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Newsworthy

Hi. What exactly you consider "Newsworthy"? A crashed car could be "newsworthy"? Should forcely to be link to an article to be candidate? How many pictures is possible to upload? Thanks. --Ganímedes (talk) 12:33, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Hello Ganímedes, I'll answer the easy question first: You can upload and submit as many pictures as you want (but it's recommended that you select the best ones for the challenge - ten pictures of the same motif will only make the decision for which one to vote more difficult).

About what is considered newsworthy - if you think it is, upload it. The policy at the moment is that the voters decide how well the picture depicted the theme by giving your pictures more or less points. We only remove pictures which were uploaded before the challenge started or don't follow the time restriction set on some challenges (the pictures for newsworthy have to be taken in 2014!). And I don't really want to make the link a requirement, though it would great if you can provide one.

I hope I was able to answer your questions and look forward to seeing your submissions! Anna reg (talk) 16:57, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! --Ganímedes (talk) 20:09, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Newsworthy... Something enough important to be relayed by medias. Hmmmm... "The idiot cat stuck in a tree : it was a bonsai !!!"... "The world's oldest cheerleader stole Miss Universe's crown !!!"... For some local newspaper lacking important information it could be all and nothing... . --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 04:17, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

de:Wikipedia:Fotowettbewerbe

I noticed a German version of the photo challenge project today - interestingly enough, they also started last December (with a Christmas decoration theme), but plan to make only about 4 challenges a year (the next one around and about Easter). I asked if they want to coordinate/link the projects and Martina Nolte and I thought that perhaps an interwiki-link would be a good idea - after all, it's more or less a sister-project with a slightly different scope on a wikipedia...
Anna reg (talk) 19:36, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

I think you meant to link to de:Wikipedia:Fotowettbewerbe. darkweasel94 04:57, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Of course. I should really always try out the links I write - I make too many silly mistakes otherwise... Thanks for pointing out my mistake. I have now corrected the title of this paragraph... Anna reg (talk) 10:43, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Thoughts

Things with Photo Challenge don't seem to go the way its promoters wished. The original idea was to organize a series of thematic contests whose main evaluation criteria were the adherence to the subject and the quality of the images. What I see is a 'like-type' popularity contest in which the technical and artistic merit don't have a significant weight. I wonder if most people even care to see the pictures in full size! In my opinion two factors contribute to the situation: the use of a 3-2-1 type of vote, which favors the more emotional (and shallow) positive reactions, and the lack of critique. If the idea is to encourage quality participation, the voting system should be closer to the one in FPC. -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 16:25, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I see what you mean, but I'm not sure about the solution. Are you thinking of oppose/support votes for as many pictures as you want to comment on? And the winner is decided by looking which one has the best difference? I'm not sure how well that would work... I'd also like more comments/critique for the candidates - at the moment I'm a bit hesitant in commenting anything but why I like a picture, but as a participant myself, I'd be happy about some constructive critique... we can try to discuss that a bit more, but as you see, discussions are often really slow here... ;-> Anna reg (talk) 18:05, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Para conocer sobre los posibles temas del Reto para el proximo mes de Marzo

Hola a todos, he colaborado y participado en los 3 Retos anteriores de diciembre, enero y febrero, pero hasta hoy no veo que se hable sobre los posibles temas para el próximo mes de marzo, ¿Es que áun no se han determinado? Si alguien pudiese decirme algo al respecto lo agradecería, para poder ir preparando algunas ideas para el mismo. Un saludo cordial y sigamos defendiendo esta idea del concurso, es algo muy válido y estimulante para la comunidad de Commons. Ivan2010

Hi everyone, I've collaborated and participated in the previous 3 Challenges of December, January and February, but until today I see none talking about possible topics for March. Is not yet been determined? If someone could tell me something about I'll grateful to start preparing some ideas for it. Regards and let´s continue defending the idea of the contest; is very valid and stimulating for Commons' community. Ivan2010 fast translated by Ganímedes

Thanks for the translation, Ganímedes! About the topics - feel free to write your ideas/wishes! Suggestions really help the person responsible for that month to decide which themes to pick for the next month(s)... (I was responsible for the February themes and if nobody wants to take over for March, I can prepare the next two topics, but if somebody else wants to have a go, please tell me or Colin!)
My ideas so far would be something according to

• traditions (perhaps as a longer challenge - ending only in the end of April, thus including Carnival, Lent & Easter?)
• textures
• undocumented species/cultivars for april

other ideas would be local food, action verbs (both overlap with traditions), reflections (too broad scope without additional restrictions), proverbs, contradictions, jobs, below... but nothing I'm too sure about... Anna reg (talk) 18:53, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

No problem :) Acerca de los temas - ¡Siéntete libre de escribir tus ideas/deseos! Las sugerencias realmente ayudan a la persona responsable de ese mes a decidir qué temas elegir para el próximo mes (s) ... (yo era responsable de los temas de febrero y si nadie quiere hacerse cargo en marzo, puedo preparar los próximos dos temas, pero si alguien más quiere, ¡por favor díganselo a Colin o a mi!) </ br>

Hasta ahora tengo las siguientes ideas:

• Tradiciones (tal vez como un desafío más largo - que termina solo a finales de abril, incluyendo así Carnaval, Cuaresma y Pascua)
• texturas
• Especies/cultivos no documentados para abril

otras ideas serían comida local, verbos de acción (ambas se solapan con las tradiciones), reflexiones (alcance demasiado amplio y sin restricciones adicionales), proverbios, contradicciones, empleos, abajo ... pero no estoy muy segura de nada ... Anna reg (talk) 18:53, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Hola Colin y Anna reg, ya que me invitan a opinar pues lo hago, quizás si logro servir de ayuda para este proyecto, sería ya muy válido para mí. Antes de comenzar pedirles disculpas por solo poder escribirles en español, pero no manejo el ingles como para poder expresarme como quisiera, solo espero que alguien pueda hacer la traducción correcta para ser bien comprendido. Comienzo felicitando la idea de reto mensual, pienso, desde mi perspectiva de amante de la fotografía, que es algo muy bueno, ya que estimula mucho a la creatividad, por promover crear imágenes a partir de “una idea que deberá ser visualizada”, creo que ese pudiera ser casi la definición de este proyecto: “Ideas para ser Visualizadas”, además, de hecho contribuye a la comunidad aumentando las buenas imágenes de Commons. Y dicho esto me concentro entonces en el “tema” de los “temas”, en realidad las propuestas pensadas por Anna reg son buenas, pero algunas son tan amplias de interpretar, que implicarían un diapasón muy abierto donde el cúmulo de imágenes que cabrían sería incalculable, el tipo de temas que considero más sensatos deberían ser aquellos que obliguen a una realización más cerrada, por ejemplo; pienso que de las propuestas de Anna reg, el tema de las texturas puede ser válido, pero si tuviese “apellido”, digamos: -Texturas en Metal. -Texturas en arquitectura. -Texturas en paisajes. Lo mismo me ocurre con las Tradiciones, y con los Empleos, son buenos, si también llevasen apellidos: -Tradiciones culturales. -Tradiciones políticas. -Tradiciones geográficas. -Empleos artísticos. -Empleos rudos. -Empleos sociales En fin que se darán cuenta que soy de los que considera la idea de temas que “cierren el diapasón” y limiten así la cantidad de posibles imágenes que cabrían. Tal vez de los temas que habla Anna reg, el que pienso pueda quedar así mismo sería el de: “Contradicciones”, pues ya lleva implícito una limitante en sí misma. Finalmente les agradezco me hayan permitido dar mi humilde opinión, y creo que ganaríamos todos si defendemos el que este proyecto de los retos mensuales pudiéramos mantenerlo vivo por todo el año, siempre con las reglas ya establecidas en los 3 meses anteriores respecto al momento de subida, los posibles votantes, y sobre todo mantener que sea “Mensual”, para estrechar la cantidad de imágenes que se suban y promover participantes que se esfuercen por estar presentes en tiempo. Bueno, no quiero cansar con más palabras, quedo a la espera de escuchar sus comentarios sobe mis ideas, y ojalá puedan hacerlo en español. Les doy las gracias y les envío un saludo muy cordial para ambos, y para todo aquel que lea estas letras y esté interesado en preservar Photo challenge. Ivan2010,

Sorry I've been a bit absent this month. Busy in real life and didn't get the chance to take pictures I wanted. Previous attempts to determine themes by consensus failed I think party because we don't have enough voices for a clear choice to arise and partly because the choice of perfectly good themes is vast, so it is difficult to argue why one is better than another. So I had to pick something. But in the opposite way, I didn't want this to become "Colin's photo challenge". That's why I asked Anna to do February. Plus she offered some good discussion points. Anna came up with themes that I wouldn't have considered, which is good. At present we are experimenting with themes to see what works for Commons, so having a good variety of themes of different kinds will be helpful. I would encourage the next themes to be quite different to previous ones. I'm very happy for Anna to pick March, with suggestions offered by anyone who has an idea. Perhaps we could have someone be the "theme chooser" for a 2-3 months and then pass the baton onto someone else? What do you think? Nothing needs to be written in stone, so we can change if this doesn't work. -- Colin (talk) 09:00, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm struggling a bit with a Google-translate of the above. Here's some thoughts.. If we have some seasonally-advantageous theme (like the Traditions) then it would be good to restrict that photos must be taken during the challenge -- but when we do this we get less entries so having it for a longer period makes sense. If we have one longer theme, then perhaps have two normal-length ones too? I think having at least one theme with this restriction is good as it makes people get their camera out and fully participate. I agree that "textures" is very broad and it is similar to the recent "bunch of stuff" theme. But "Textures in landscapes" is a good idea. Limitations are good for creativity and clever thinking whereas too broad a theme encourages lazy thinking. Here's an idea for ongoing selection choices: we pick one of the Design elements and principles (e.g. Shape or Texture or Balance or Scale) and then apply some restriction to it (e.g. in Architecture, in Landscape, in Wood, in Stone). -- Colin (talk) 09:00, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I am also interested to know what the March theme will be. I am still very much a beginner photographer and have a lot to learn so it will be some time before I can submit high quality images, but I would still like to take part as it motivates me every month. If both topics are somewhat advanced (as in December) I probably won't be able to, so maybe bear that in mind. HelenOnline 10:27, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm not only amateur but I've got a not very good camera. However, I put some pics in this challenge because I think it's a nice idea and I want to help, even when I'm sure I've got no chances seen the quality of the other pics. In other words: Do it!!!! It's fun, it's easy and you loose nothing but win practice :) Cheers. --Ganímedes (talk) 10:32, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

It's the same for me - I do like to make photos and I think/hope I know how to make a nice picture, but I'm not an expert in any way. But I also think that the challenges are a really nice idea - which is reason enough to participate... ;-> I also noticed how the challenge themes make me look for motives and thus encourage me to take pictures (by the way, Helen, silhouettes isn't really that difficult, it's just something you normally avoid - you should try it!).
About themes & theme restrictions: it seems I restricted the February theme Newsworthy too much (in this case because I wanted to avoid old news) - if I saw it correctly, two of the 13 pictures submitted at the moment should be removed as they are against the challenge rules - the storm in Sydney took place in October and this picture was taken in the end of December (even though the news are for February, so perhaps it could be okay?). In my opinion, 11 pictures are less then I'd like in a challenge, which opens the question if we should

• say it was a trial & error mistake and vote as planned
• open the restrictions somewhat and give people a few more days to react to the change
• extend the challenge for another month (the pictures we got are interesting)

I like the proposed restriction for textures (even though I'm not sure how textures in landscapes look like), but I don't think traditions needs to be restricted - even if perhaps it needs a better explanation (I'd say what I'm thinking of could be cultural traditions, even though that sounds a bit strange to me). After looking through when the pictures for two of something were taken (15 out of 51 were taken this month), I understand the need for time restrictions for open themes better (I think it was fine in this case - 51 pictures aren't that many entries).
Perhaps we could also try to change the voting a bit - de:Wikipedia:Fotowettbewerbe wants to try our three-star system plus an extra star () for the encyclopaedical most useful entry. I still would like the possibility to vote for more than three pictures and I think, honouring usefulness/techniqual merit etc. could change the submissions a bit... Anna reg (talk) 12:19, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Hola Colin ,Anna reg, y el resto de participantes, veo que mis palabras han dado lugar a un nuevo debate, algo que veo muy válido para mejorar y enriquecer el proyecto, y me alegra que estén de acuerdo en limitar algunos temas, también al igual que ustedes, considero una cifra valida las entradas recibidas anteriormente. Por eso, partiendo de las propuestas para marzo de Anna reg, y de la invitación a que yo participara dando mi opinión, y tomando en consideración que ya solo quedan horas para comenzar el próximo mes, quería proponer concretamente dos de sus temas para analizarlos y que sean aprobados o rechazados para poder comenzar el reto de marzo, estoy pensando en ese de: “Texturas”, limitadas ya sea con paisajes, metal, madera o agua, y en otro tema que Anna reg, solo ha mencionado, pero que pienso es una muy buena idea de ella para mover a la creatividad: “Contradicciones”. ¿Qué creen? Propongo valorarlos y lanzarnos a escoger para finalmente ver cuales quedarían aceptados para este próximo mes de marzo que ya tenemos casi encima nuestro. En realidad solo trato de ayudar y aportar en lo que humildemente considero. Gracias por escucharme. Un saludo a todos y veré sus comentarios, que por cierto, si alguien me ayudara con la traducción al español lo agradecería infinitamente.Ivan2010 12:50, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Anna reg re Newsworthy challenge, I don't think you should change the rules retrospectively (especially not so late in the submission period). I don't mind there being fewer submissions, it is going to be really hard to vote in the other February challenge. HelenOnline 16:47, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I am happy for Anna to choose the March themes. I would prefer separate monthly themes, perhaps we could use "Carnival" for March (not time-restricted to allow for global variations nor restricted to Easter-related festivities) and "Easter" for April, but allow photos taken during Lent in March to be uploaded in April? For the second theme, I like "Proverbs" (uploader must state the proverb it represents.) HelenOnline 13:04, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm a bit nervous about "Carnival" as theme on its own as that it would eliminate many people from being able to take pictures for the challenge and likely just one day in the month to do so. Do we have a feel for what proportion of Commons users might be able to attend a carnival with camera in the given month? If we do run a theme with likely low-participation, then that makes it all the more attractive to increase the number to three. The problem with "allow photos taken during Lent in March to be uploaded in April" is that unless we advertise that the April theme is "Lent and Easter" well in advance, few people will know to take Lent pictures in March for the challenge. I think the primary focus should be that people see the challenge theme and then go out and take a picture that month/period. So Anna's original idea of "Traditions (e.g. Carnival, Lent and Easter)" running for March+April may work better even though it breaks the monthly cycle. -- Colin (talk) 19:39, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

As I'm playing with the idea of proposing traditions as a topic for a longer period since mid January (and I think that we should try out if longer challenges are a good idea or not), I'm against changing it from traditions to specific festivals - but I hope that the restriction to local traditions helps a bit to focus on regional events/customs (not necessarily Easter related, as there are also other early spring celebrations). I think I'll go with proverbs and textures as the other two topics (somehow I connect contradictions a bit with two of something)... Anna reg (talk) 22:03, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Christmast is also a cultural tradition... --Ganímedes (talk) 11:54, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, of course - but as it's better if we have a limited number of entries and the challenge will be run for two months, I think we will end up with too many images if we don't restrict when the picture is taken - I restricted it to 2014, which excludes Christmas pictures, but allows pictures of carnival and spring traditions... the challenges are now up (the last one just a few minutes ago) and hopefully more or less clear. I tried to find examples to illustrate the themes a bit, as I think that we struggle a bit with the different languages when defining the themes - they were quite difficult to restrict for me, and I'm quite sure of my English... Anna reg (talk) 17:34, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Anna reg. Do you mind if I edit the Proverbs examples? For example, "love is blind" is the English version and the Netherlandish Proverbs illustrated and "tempest in a teapot" are idioms not proverbs. Here is an explanation of the difference. HelenOnline 18:52, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the pictures - though as I think the challenge is difficult enough, I think differentiating between idioms and proverbs isn't that important (in my opinion, a bunch of stuff was a mixture of stuff, structures & plant pictures - and for me that's stranger than differentiating between different sayings...). Anna reg (talk) 22:17, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I have a very literal brain. If we are going to include idioms, please can we change the heading to "Proverbs and idioms". HelenOnline 06:56, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

As the rules say that a submission should illustrate the topic in the eye of the photographer we have till now never removed a picture because somebody feels that it doesn't fit the theme. How well a submission illustrates the theme is therefore only defined by how many votes it gets (at least hopefully people take that into account when voting ;->). My last comment was not about changing the rules but what I think is realistic (I found it difficult finding pictures to illustrate the theme and looked in category proverbs and that was what I found... - and therefore really appreciate the pictures you found except the apple - in my opinion that's a too small/easy part illustrate the proverb well... ;->) I suspect that if I find the distinction a bit difficult, there will be others as well... perhaps changing the title is a good solution, even though I'm still not sure it's necessary (the next shady boundary could be against 'winged words'). Anna reg (talk) 07:42, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Maybe the topic "Traditions" is too restrictive... January - April 2014. We lose many traditions. I think it would be better to extend it to a year before the end of the challenge: May 2013 - April 2014.--Alurín (talk) 17:11, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Wo sind denn die Februar-Bilder hingekommen?

Hallo! Ich sehe nur mehr die Bilder vom Jänner und die neuen für März, die vom Februar finde ich nicht mehr. Hätte gern noch zwei Bilder eingereicht ... Liebe Grüße, --Häferl (talk) 18:18, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Da nun schon März ist, kannst du jetzt sowieso keine Bilder für Februar mehr einreichen. Sie befinden sich jedenfalls auf Commons:Photo challenge/2014 - February - Newsworthy und Commons:Photo challenge/2014 - February - Two of something. darkweasel94 18:27, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Schade. Ginge um dieses denkmalgeschützte Objekt. Nirgends ein zugedrücktes Auge ...? ;-) Liebe Grüße, --Häferl (talk) 18:35, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Eigentlich haben wir im letzten Monat (siehe #Deadline for January?) entschieden, dass wir keine Augen zudrücken, sondern dass 23:59 UTC (also 00:59 mitteleuropäische Zeit bzw. 01:59 mitteleuropäische Sommerzeit) die fixe Frist ist. Es ist allerdings nicht meine Entscheidung, ich organisiere hier nichts mit. darkweasel94 19:42, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Nachdem ich dieses Bild gestern tapfer entfernt hab (obwohl ich lieber ein Auge zudrücken würde, nachdem das Bild nur drei Tage zu früh aufgenommen wurde und die Nachrichten für Februar sind - also keine alten Nachrichten), glaube ich, dass dein Bild im Sinne der Gerechtigkeit auch nicht mehr teilnehmen darf... (keine nachträglichen Regeländerungen etc.) Zu nicht deine Entscheidung, Darkweasel94: soweit ich das sehe, möchte hier keiner gerne entscheiden, manche werden nur dazu 'gezwungen' ;-> Anna reg (talk) 22:28, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Paßt schon, Anna und Darkweasel, ich wäre da selber ja auch streng, aber man probiert es halt. ;-) Liebe Grüße, --Häferl (talk) 00:27, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

January 2014 Winners

 January: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Author	Abrget47j	Estormiz	Alvesgaspar
Score	35	26	20

A bunch of stuff: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Author	XRay	Alurín	Alurín
Score	35	19	15

Congratulations to Urmas83, Estormiz, Alvesgaspar, XRay and Alurín! -- Colin (talk) 15:13, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Interesting results... and thanks for the assessement and award distribution, Colin! By the way, I just asked for help with the camera icons in the Illustration workshop of the graphic lab - perhaps you want to have a look at their improvement. --Anna reg (talk) 16:10, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

They look good. I wonder if someone can help us turn the talk-page box into a template with some parameters -- it was quite tricky to get it right by hand. -- Colin (talk) 17:09, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to all, especially to the organizers and voters. Congratulations to the other winners and other participants. I am very happy with the results.--Alurín (talk) 17:21, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Voting March 2014

As the voting for march will start soon, I want to discuss once more if we can't change the voting a bit. In my opinion, our current voting system of three votes in total per person works fine for challenges with not too many submissions (22 out of 29 submissions got a vote = comment, as there are hardly any comments without points), but doesn't work as well for challenges with many pictures. Less than half of the submissions of A bunch of stuff (40 out of 91) got at least one vote. And I know that I personally had 8 or 9 pictures I would have liked to award points. I think allowing users to give two and three points to several pictures and one to as many as they want (or up to one tenth of the number of submissions ;->) would improve that. Anna reg (talk) 16:30, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Anna, do you mean the voting for the February challenge? I was planning to get that up shortly so there may not be much time to radically change things. I agree it is good if many pictures get some recognition. I'm worried about making the rules much more complicated without some automation to help, and also because it will be harder to understand in the various languages. Also at present every voter has the same number of points to award in total so their vote is as equal as anyone else's. A few people might choose to not use all their votes but that is their choice to be under-represented. But under your proposal, if someone voted for lots of photos then their opinion in the result would carry more weight than someone who just voted for a few. Would it actually change the result for the top three anyway? Earlier you suggested a silver star for commenting. Would this meet your desire to show some love to more pictures but at the same time keep the voting representation between voters fair and simple? The "silver star" wouldn't have any point value but would be a note of appreciation. -- Colin (talk) 17:04, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I prefer the 54321 system proposed by Anna. We would have a better ranking.--Alurín (talk) 17:29, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I didn't see this as "54321" but more of a freedom to cast (with some limits) lots of votes, especially one-point votes. -- Colin (talk) 18:31, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

As we are once more discussing voting at the last possible moment, I'd say we try a small change this month and find out if a coloured star (I didn't find a silver one, but perhaps green? ) promotes comments while using the established system otherwise. All the more as we still don't have a clear idea how several votes could be handled... so perhaps we could discuss it now and develop clear ideas for possible changes for April?

About the total amount of votes - wouldn't voting for many pictures mean that your single votes carry less weight? If you e.g. give one point to every submission, they cancel each other out... but I suspect that the assessment would get more difficult, as the weight of the votes probably would have to be changed from 3-2-1. --Anna reg (talk) 17:40, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

If you award just one point to every photo then you might as well not have voted. But that's an extreme. Let's say I vote 3:2:1 but you vote 3:3:2:2:2:1:1:1:1:1:1:1:1. I've awarded 12 points in total and you've awarded 20. You've had a much greater say in which photos get top prize than me. My question is that there seem to be two objectives. Firstly is to find a winner (or top 3). Secondly to review and show appreciation to lots of photos. For the former, I favour keeping things simple. I worry that if we have a complex system or give people lots of points to award as they see fit then some might spend hours agonising over their allocation (or fear they might) or end up not bothering as they can't find the time to do the job fully. -- Colin (talk) 18:31, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

How about this for your extra * idea:

Voters may select up to three photographs to award points to their 1st / 2nd / 3rd place images, but can give Highly Commended praise to any other photos they wish.

1st Place ★★★ *{{3/3*}} -- ~~~~

2nd Place ★★★ *{{2/3*}} -- ~~~~

3rd Place ★★★ *{{1/3*}} -- ~~~~

Highly Commended *{{0/3*}} -- ~~~~

I can't figure out the translated pages at all and fear to break something so if we agree to this, I'll need some help from someone to replace the English text and do some translations. Also the above might look nicer in a table with alignment. (Note to translators -- the header template is quite short. Do we really need all those numbered divisions and tediously separating out the words from the symbols. Can't we just make the whole thing a block that gets translated in one go by someone. That would make it infinitely easier to edit. Colin (talk) 18:35, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

@Colin: Don’t worry, you virtually cannot break anything − any change you make on the English page must be approved by a translation sysop before propagating to the translated subpages. So just edit the source − I’ll clean up after if something goes wrong. :-)

Re:making it a huge block: theoretically it’s possible (though in this case you’d need toreally want it to make it behave that way) but no, it is much easier this way for translators (at least in my opinion, as someone who has done his fair share of translations both the old and new way). And as there are potentially tens or hundreds of translations, I’d rather make their life easier :)

Jean-Fred (talk) 18:58, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Jean-Fred, can you point me at the manual/instructions for these translation tags I know what is safe to change. For example, if I wanted to move stuff around, what happens if the numbers get out of order. As for "you virtually cannot break anything", well I did manage to break with MediaWiki software last time I tried this! -- Colin (talk) 19:21, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

@Colin: Sure, here is the full manual. The <tvar stuff can look weird but there no need :)

Yes, moving stuff around can be a bit tricky − in this case might be best to remove the numbered thingies − new ones will be added when the page will be re-marked for translation. The drawback is that translators will have to re-translate the moved chunk from scratch, while the numbered sections keep the unchanged parts in sync. Jean-Fred (talk) 22:10, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Highly Commended *{{0/3*}} -- ~~~~ sounds fine - but could we change the picture from three empty stars to the green star or something else showing appreciation? A smiley or something similar? Three grey stars looks sad... --Anna reg (talk) 19:30, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

What about ? -- Colin (talk) 20:00, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Since someone's already started voting (despite the notice the page wasn't ready) I've gone ahead and made the change. Could someone (Jean-Fred?) translate? -- Colin (talk) 21:11, 2 March 2014 (UTC) I edited the English text but it isn't showing up on the page? -- Colin (talk) 21:16, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

 Done Re-Marked the page for translation, and updated French accordingly. Jean-Fred (talk) 22:16, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

The heart is lovely ;->. I just tried to translate the highly commended to German, but there is a formatting error - I think I found and corrected it, but I won't know for sure before the page is re-marked for translation once again... --Anna reg (talk) 22:52, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Good catch Anna reg. Should be good now. Jean-Fred (talk) 23:50, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree too. 5 look better than 5 {{0/3*}}, just because 5x0=0 !!! --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 00:59, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't sure what to use for the template. It isn't worth any points so 0/3 makes sense but awarding 0 seems a little sad even though it shows up as a heart. But if I choose a worded-template then I don't know if it would translate. In the UK we have the idiom that there are prizes for 1st, 2nd, 3rd places but other entries can be "highly commended" which is a recognition that those entries were very good too but just missed the award. Does this translate to other cultures/languages? -- Colin (talk) 08:27, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Btw, Jean-Fred, the English text has some wiki markup showing round the heart on the voting page. -- Colin (talk) 08:27, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Hmmmm, weird. I don’t see what could be the cause of that − I asked for help on the Translators noticeboard. Jean-Fred (talk) 09:49, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Fixed by Patrick87. Jean-Fred (talk) 10:31, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Re:translatability: I used “Mention honorable” which I think conveys the same meaning. I was inclined at the beginning to use “coup de cœur” which is kinda “out of competition fave” but that does not seem right − I was influenced by the heart symbol so that may be confusing. Jean-Fred (talk) 09:49, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

In French "Mention honorable" is the good term but only for the 4th place IMAO. "Coup de coeur" could be good for 5th ? How many challengers could be awarded ? 4 ? 5 ? 10 ? Can we think about a "Médaille en chocolat" ("Chocolate medal")  ? --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 13:00, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

As the idea of the heart is to promote comments and reactions to pictures, you can award as many as you want. But at least at the moment there are no plans to include it into the point system to establish the three winners or a separate system (not sure if one of those even could work) - the heart still stands for zero points, even if it looks a lot nicer... Anna reg (talk) 14:24, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Inconsistent submission criteria

@User:Anna reg I think it would be better to aim for more consistent submission criteria. For March we have one that must be taken in March, one that must be taken in 2014, and one without a time limitation. Additionally one is open for two months instead of one. I assume you have some subject-related rationale for these choices, but for simple minds like mine it just adds unneccessary complication. I'd stick strongly to the one month submission period. I'm not sure of the optimal rule for taking the photo, so except in special circumstances (e.g. newsworthy), I'd just leave it open to photos taken at any time. --99of9 (talk) 03:11, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I think the criterion for "traditions" makes sense, because that challenge is (I think) supposed to mostly generate Easter-related files, although it doesn't say that for the sake of cultural neutrality. ;) For the other two, I agree with you, there's little sense in requiring "Surface textures" to be taken in March. darkweasel94 06:48, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Maybe the topic "Traditions" is too restrictive... January - April 2014. We lose many traditions. I think it would be better to extend it to a year before the end of the challenge: May 2013 - April 2014.--Alurín (talk) 09:27, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

The main reason I used time restrictions in March is to limit the number of submissions somewhat - while I suspect that proverbs won't have that many submissions, surface textures and traditions (which is run for two months also because I think that it's a good idea to try out if it makes sense to run some challenges for longer than a month) could both end up with a lot of pictures. Perhaps that should be changed for surface textures and we should just see how big challenges are dealt with (or even if there will be that many pictures)...

for traditions I had two reasons for the time restriction - the number of pictures in a challenge run over a longer period of time and the restriction to traditions around the challenge period. And yes, of course the first traditions I'm thinking of in spring all have something to do with Easter (even carnival is related to it) - I'm from Austria and that's a country where Catholicism is involved in most traditions ;->. But as seasonal traditions exist around the world - especially in spring and autumn (Australia - we could get some harvest traditions or something similar - in addition to Easter celebrated in autumn... ;->), I am really looking forward to see other traditions as well. I already saw some other traditions in March and April with often only only very few pictures while trying to prepare the theme.

I'm not that interested in pictures of Christmas - it's just really the wrong time for those... if you have another idea how to restrict the challenge to different traditions around the world taking place in a time period (spring in the northern hemisphere), I'd be open for changes... and Alurín, I suspect that there will be other challenges allowing for traditions at some point in the future - and not all pictures have to be uploaded because of a challenge! ;->

By the way - I really don't want to chose the themes for April - somehow, it's a bit stressful for me (especially this month) and I think two months is enough for me... if anybody would like to do it for the next (two or three) month(s), please say so. --Anna reg (talk) 09:44, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

We already had a Christmassy theme last December (Coloured lights) and we could have another related theme this December so I am happy with the 2014 dates. It is autumn here, but January is New Year carnival season and it is harvest season here now. There is very little Catholic influence here, our Christmas and Easter traditions are mostly commercial. HelenOnline 10:20, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate 99of9's concern about complexity of submission rules. We are also trying to create challenges that work internationally as much as reasonable, which is rather hard. I think it worth experimenting with longer challenges to see if that works. I really don't want all the challenges to be simply "photos any time" as all we will end up with is a themed FP contest and few people actually getting their camera out to actually take a photo for the challenge. No other photo challenge online (AFAIK) allows photos that aren't explicitly taken for the challenge. It's the main point. I think in fact that if we get participation levels high enough, we could enforce the "taken this month" rule for all challenges. Ultimately it is up to those setting the challenge (Anna this time) to set the rules for a good challenge. And I agree with Anna that it is stressful to please everyone here. -- Colin (talk) 10:47, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I'd be happy if it was always "taken this month" - it would make everything simpler and clearer, just stick to one rule. I think opening submissions for two months is not going to add much, and will slow things down, but if it's an experiment, go for it, we'll find out. --99of9 (talk) 02:24, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

For the Proverbs and idioms challenge, "For this theme, photographs must be taken by the nominator and uploaded to Commons during the challenge submission period." could be understood to mean taken and uploaded during the submission period. I understand there is no restriction on when it is taken but it may be misunderstood by others. HelenOnline 13:56, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Ajam, good idea, Anna... we could do three or four-month challenges about tradition. This first challenge could start at February, like this Christmas isn't good for it. What do you think??--Alurín (talk) 23:55, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

It's an idea, but I won't be responsible for a second traditions-challenge... ;-> but I think it's a good idea to look first how well this one turns out.

@HelenOnline: You are right, that could be misunderstood (there are no time restrictions for proverbs) - any suggestions how to avoid that ambiguity? --Anna reg (talk) 00:21, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I took the liberty of changing it to the wording used for one of the January challenges, hope that is in order. HelenOnline 06:52, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

It's a wiki, "taking the liberty" to edit something is what we're supposed to be doing!! :-) Of course discussion before making controversial changes to rules is important, and not everyone has the necessary language confidence. -- Colin (talk) 08:04, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Formaler Einspruch gegen den ordnungsgemäßen Ablauf der Commons:Photo_challenge im Monat Februar

Ich protestiere hiermit gegen Änderungen wie diese und erhebe hiermit formal Einspruch gegen den ordnungsgemäßen Ablauf der Photo Challenge im Monat Februar. Unabhängig davon ob mein Bild was gewonnen hätte, finde ich die Entfernung aus der Kategorie sehr kurios. Oder ist jetzt zukünftig ein Nutzer in der Pflicht permanent zu prüfen ob nicht seine Bilder mehr oder minder heimlich aus den Wettbewerbskategorien entfernt wurden? --Slick (talk) 14:02, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Deutsch: Die Datei ist nicht im Wettbewerb eingetragen. Die Kategorie ist ja nur nebensächlich, ob man am Wettbewerb teilnimmt oder nicht hängt davon ab, ob das Bild in der entsprechenden Galerie ist, und da ist es nicht. Wurde es dort ebenfalls entfernt? Wenn nicht wäre das absolut korrekt es aus der Kategorie zu entfernen, da es nicht am Wettbewerb teilgenommen hat. Wenn das aus der Wettbewerbsbeschreibung nicht deutlich wurde, müsste man vielleicht den Text dort etwas klarer formulieren.

English: The file is not listed in the contest. The category is only secondary, defining for entering the contest is whether or not the file is listed in the gallery of the contest, where it was not listed. Unless ist was removed from there too, removing it from the category is actually correct since it did not participate in the contest. If that wasn't obvious from the contest description, that text should probably be rephrased to make that clear.

— Julian H.^✈(talk/files) 14:41, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Entschuldigung aber mein English ist zu schlecht das auszuformulieren, aber die Teilnahmenbedingungen sagen aus das ein Bild nur der Kategorie hinzugefügt werden mußte: Please add to your challenging picture(s) this Category:Photo challenge/2014 - February - Two of something. Thank you.[1]. --Slick (talk) 14:52, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Wenn ich die Situation richtig verstehe, ist dir beim Einreichen deines Bildes ein Fehler unterlaufen - das machst du, indem du's als letztes/aktuellstes Bild in die Gallerie des jeweiligen Bewerbs einfügst (einfach auf der Photo challenge-Hauptseite bei deinem Bewerb auf Bearbeiten drücken und den Bildnamen deines Kandidaten vor 'insert your image here' hineinkopieren). Die Kategorie ist nur eine zusätzliche Hilfe, um die sich Llann Wé² freundlicherweise kümmert (aber darum bittet, dass die Teilnehmer ihre Kandidaten wenn möglich doch gleich selber einordnen). Nachdem mittlerweile nicht nur die Einreichphase abgeschlossen, sondern auch die Abstimmungsphase recht weit fortgeschritten ist, sehe ich keine Möglichkeit, wie man den Fehler diesmal korrigieren könnte. Tut mir leid... (es wäre ein netter Beitrag gewesen).

Aber vielleicht kannst du helfen, Unklartheiten in den Regeln zu beseitigen, so dass solche Fehler in Zukunft nicht mehr passieren? Sollte irgendwo noch ausdrücklich(er) erwähnt werden, dass die Teilnahme über die Galerien und nicht über die Kategorien erfolgt? Ich werd mir den Text gleich selber noch einmal anschauen, bin aber für Hilfe dankbar (überhaupt, nachdem ich die Regeln ja kenne und also solche Fallen wohl nicht so leicht sehe...)

Liebe Grüße, Anna reg (talk) 15:12, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I have clarified the submission process for March entries. HelenOnline 15:18, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Ok, jetzt verstehe ich das Problem. Ich bin nur etwas überrascht das ein "neues" Verfahren benutzt wird. Bei WLM reichte auch ein Eintrag in eine Kategorie. (Muss das hier wirklich wieder anders sein?) Die Beschreibung der Teilnahme-Regeln war wirklich unzureichend. Danke fürs Nachbessern. --Slick (talk) 16:29, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Deutsch: Du hast recht, dass Llann Wé²s Bitte, Kandidaten in die entsprechende Kategorie einzuordnen leicht falsch aufgefasst werden kann. Helens Zusatz sollte das Problem eigentlich klären... aber vielleicht sollte man die 'Einreich-Anleitung' auch in die allgemeinen Photo challenge Regeln schreiben (unter 'Participation'/'Beteiligung')?

English: Turns out that Llann Wé²'s request to categorise the submissions could be misunderstood and taken as an explanation how pictures should be submitted... thanks for the clarification, Helen. Perhaps we should also add a short explanation how to submit your pictures into the general rules (point 'Participation')?

--Anna reg (talk) 15:45, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I just added this (before I realized you had already added something about it). HelenOnline 16:08, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it would hurt to add Slick's picture now, there are still two weeks of voting left. Incidentally, people who voted for the first image now deleted may want to vote for something else instead (Crisco 1492, Ivan2010, Revi). HelenOnline 16:19, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Would be okay for me. And I'll write to those who voted for the deleted image (even if I'm not sure I understand the reason it was deleted... license laws are sometimes a bit strange to me...) --Anna reg (talk) 16:43, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Added. Es tut mir leid dass es spät ist Slick. HelenOnline 16:57, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Danke dafür. Entschuldigung das ich die Bedingungen falsch verstanden hatte, aber so hilft es allen weiter und verbessert die Qualität :) --Slick (talk) 12:54, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

C'est à quel propos ? What the what ? What did I did wrong ? --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 00:08, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Nothing. User:Slick misunderstood the submission rules and added the image only to the category and not to the gallery. darkweasel94 07:13, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I consider this a teething problem that we all learnt from. If anyone adds a challenge category again without adding the image to the challenge gallery, we should ask why before removing the category. HelenOnline 07:21, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Darkweasel. That's what I guessed but I was not really sure I understood all .

Helen, it did happen last week with M0tty but we cleared this point.

Can we make things clearer with this kind of 8 steps explanation ?

1. Choose one or all current challenge's theme
2. Take your picture(s) during the challenge period
3. Upload your picture(s) during the challenge period
4. Submit your challenging picture(s) at the bottom of the current challenge page with clicking [Edit] button of the Entries section
5. Do not sign your entry(ies)
6. Add the challenge's category to your challenging picture(s)
7. Have a look at the previous challenges and vote (if you want)
8. We thank you for participating .

--Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 12:15, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't see why not. Nobody seems to be in charge here, so take the initiative as I have done (mentioning it here as you have done is always a good idea). HelenOnline 12:20, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps it may be usefull to create a template, so you just fill the nessary information to the each challange. (i.E. start-/endtime, requirements, ...) So it should be easy to translate. --Slick (talk) 12:58, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

There is one step in your list which isn't a general requirement - taking your picture during the challenge period. So far it's an additional rule to some challenges, because there were participants who wished for the option to upload old pictures. As others are wishing for consistent rules, we can of course decide that all future challenges should only accept pictures taken during the challenge (I think that may be a good idea), but I wouldn't write that point into a list of rules as long as it isn't decided... In either case, I would add

• read the challenge description/rules

as a second point (and change your second point to Choose your picture(s). --Anna reg (talk) 15:49, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words Helen. I agree Anna. This was only a suggestion in relation to the problem of Slick and M0tty. If one missunderstands the rules it's because it's not clear enough. Yes, Slick, I know some challenge's photos could be taken before the challenge but it should be better for Commons to have some new pics and generalize this part of rule : take the pic during the challenge. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 21:16, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Award templates

As the award distribution was quite tricky, I tried to make some templates. Well, here's what I managed - if somebody has ideas how they can be improved, go for it! (I didn't even try to change the design of the award I managed to create in January - even though the layout isn't too convincing...)

• {{Photo Challenge Winner|File:Name.jpg|Year|Month|Theme}}
• {{Photo Challenge Silver}} and
• {{Photo Challenge Bronze}}

As an example how to use them:

This {{Photo Challenge Gold|File:-Insert_image_here-.svg|A bunch of stuff|2014|January}} will result in this:

	Photo Challenge Winner
	Congratulations! Your picture -Insert image here-.svg won the 1st place in the Photo Challenge A bunch of stuff, in January 2014. You can find the results of the challenge here.

--Anna reg (talk) 11:16, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Different users have now also created different ways of adding an Assessment-Style box to the corresponding images (Examples 1, 2). Is there a consensus that this can/should be done? I think then we should also create "official" templates for this purpose. — Julian H.^✈(talk/files) 12:47, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. About the boxes - I was not aware of them (and therefore don't think that they were discussed), but they are fine with me. If we are thinking of creating official template(s), we should discuss

• which pictures should use them - probably first, second and third place?
• a name for the template ({{Photo challenge}}? or {{Photo Challenge Winner}} and move that one to {{Photo Challenge Gold}})
• the colours we want to use (XRay and Alurín used the featured picture colour scheme, which I think is a bad idea).

As I don't think much of the colours in the congratulations template I created, I just tried the colours used in the Commons:Photo challenge box. As far as I know, they aren't used in one of the other projects (VI, QI, FP) - what do you think?

This picture won the {{{1}}} place in the Photo challenge [[Commons:Photo_Challenge/{{{2}}} - {{{3}}} - {{{4}}}|{{{4}}}]] in {{{3}}} {{{2}}}.

with 1: the place (first, second, third), 2: the year, 3: the month, 4: the challenge theme.

A disadvantage of the templates I created: I have no idea if there is a possibility to translate the flexible parameters into different languages. --Anna reg (talk) 13:59, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm all for this. Translation and other stuff can still be done later, that's why it's a template. — Julian H.^✈(talk/files) 09:06, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

I finally created the assessment template and named it {{Photo challenge winner}}. It can be used on file description pages to show that a picture won a place in a photo challenge.
To avoid confusion, I moved the template to announce the first place to {{Photo Challenge Gold}}. The old name still works as I didn't use capital letters for c and w for the assessment template - which means that we don't have to change the boxes already awarded, but on the other hand is a bit inconsistent... well, if somebody wishes to change that - feel free. Anna reg (talk) 12:43, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Themes for April and May

Since I was asked to select themes for the April challenge by Colin I would like to get some feedback for the ideas I had so far. We also discussed to increase the number of parallel challenges from 2 + one overlapping to 3 + one overlapping. I would like to have it 2 + 2 overlapping - having this in mind I would propose to choose to combine the following three themes for April and May:

April

• Four Elements (fire, water, air and soil)
• Black and green (as a colour combination theme)
• Spring time (overlapping until end of May)
• Traditions (overlapping already set until end of April)

May

• Heavy Metal (including real metal as well as concert photography)
• Drinks and food worldwide
• Spring time (overlapping until end of May)
• Time for sports (Overlapping until end of June)

Please tell me your thoughts on these themes and the combinations - I hope it will fit to the challenges. -- Achim Raschka (talk) 15:24, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Heavy metal could be fine in June for French users because we have a national 'Music feast' and June starts the music festivals. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 17:18, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Fine for me, Llann .\m/ , since also in Germany there are some festivals in June - you have an alternative idea for May? -- Achim Raschka (talk) 17:37, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

In Austria we have also more Festivals in June. An alternative idea for May: Demonstrations and Parades (because then is the en:International Workers' Day/fr:Journée internationale des travailleurs/de:Tag der Arbeit). Nice greetings, --Häferl (talk) 21:13, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

For May I'd suggest the theme Politics. The elections for the European Parliament will occur in May and many Commons users are from EU member states; this is probably one of the democratic elections with the highest number of eligible voters who are also Commons regulars. This theme might encourage some Commons users to go to campaigning events and take photos of politicians. This theme would include photos of International Workers' Day parades (as suggested by Haeferl), being political events, and probably many/most other demonstrations and parades, although the EU election was my original motivation to suggest this. darkweasel94 21:36, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

While taking pictures of politicians may well be a worthy thing to do, particularly if we lack good photos of them, I'm not sure many people will be wowed by pictures of European MPs. There was a recent Wikipedia event that took lots of pictures of Euro MPs with professional kit/setting by some of our best photographers. So this is something that perhaps WMF has organised/done better than via a photo challenge. Personally, I've added lots of Nordic politicians to WP articles that were taken by photographers working for the Nordic Council and thus released under CC, so I know that professional quality photos are much needed. But I suspect the challenge will work best if both the photographers and the reviewers are excited about the opportunities and results. And these are not, generally, beautiful people :-) -- Colin (talk) 22:03, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

And fr:Fête du Travail the first of May. But, Häferl, what's about the rest of the world ?

Achim , spring time is for the north part, not for south !

Darkweasel, I think this idea of EU Parliament's elections could be great only for who lives in big cities where they could meet V.I.Politicians. In my little country-town (2.500 ppl, 400km from Paris) I'll never see this kind of V.I.P.'s and can't go to Paris or Brussels (800km) just for that. But if many users agree with this issue, go on : democratic choice . --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 22:40, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Hm. These are valid points, but things like "spring time", "heavy metal" can be done every year at this time, while big elections in several countries at once happen much less frequently. I don't think it will produce only photos of current MEPs: it will probably also produce photos of candidates who aren't MEPs yet, including those of minor parties (as a side note, at least one Austrian campaigning event for the 2009 EU election, which I went to, also had speeches by other representatives of the respective party who weren't candidates for the European Parliament). "Politics" is a broad theme, you could for example take photos of your place's local politicians, or photos related to currently politically (perhaps only locally) significant topics, or even your place's town hall. I mean, perhaps someone will come up with some other great suggestion that will work best in May 2014 (and won't work as well in May 2015 anymore), but so far I still think "politics" would work pretty well. darkweasel94 23:18, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Discussions are running - great! So what do you think about combining politicians with other other topics in politics overlapping to june instead of spring time, where I thought about shooting plants, insects, flowers? So, have a second try:

April

• Four Elements (fire, water, air and soil)
• Drinks and food worldwide
• Politics and politicians (overlapping until end of May)
• Traditions (overlapping already set until end of April)

May

• Flowers and insects
• Black and green (as a colour combination theme)
• Politics and politicians (overlapping until end of May)
• Time for sports (Overlapping until end of June)

June:

• Heavy Metal (including real metal as well as concert photography)
• ...
• ...
• Time for sports (Overlapping until end of June)

What we have to fix soon are the April themes - so can we go for them? -- Achim Raschka (talk) 06:10, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I would like to see someone other than Darkweasel94 who thinks "Politics and politicians" is likely to generate more than a handful of low-quality contributions. Realistically, getting an actual politician to pose for a proper quality photograph by a complete amateur is not going to happen in any numbers. Have a look at Commons:Wikipedians in European Parliament to see how much effort went into that fantastic project. And even then, the photographers got only a very short time with each subject. Photographing a politician speaking at an event would require a large long lens as used by press, and the permission of the event organisers if on private property. I don't know about where Darkweasel94 lives but in the UK MEPs are nobody -- only a few top-level controversial ones will be known to anyone. And candidate MEPs are below nobody. I might as well take a picture of my dentist or bus driver for all that anyone would care who they were. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the candidate MEPs were dentists and bus drivers.

And I must object to the loss of "Spring time" for the usual complaint about southern contributors. Sorry, but this is a wonderful time of year for seasonal photography and I think would inspire some great photos for the challenge where people actually go out and take new pictures. Far more inspirational than a contest geared round EU elections that many contributors either can't participate in or have little interest in. Most of our contributors live in countries where it is now spring -- the only requirement for a challenge is that there are sufficient numbers of potential participants, not that there must be no contributors left out. Given that the are likely to be several alternative challenges running at the same time, I don't think our southern friends need feel ignored nor should they obstruct a good theme choice. So I strongly support "Spring time" in favour of "Politics".

Query on "Flowers and insects" -- this could be dropped in if Spring is restored, and Achim's Heavy Metal in its place. But should this theme run at some point, I assume you mean to have both in the picture -- as separate pictures of flowers or of insects would be quite different challenges. -- Colin (talk) 08:39, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I have only had time for a quick look, but would like to ask that the word "soil" be replaced by "earth" which is how that element is known to me (although it can represent any solid matter). HelenOnline 09:00, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

What do you think of the undocumented species/cultivars (or little documented) theme for spring? It's a possibility to make pictures of flowers and animals and not that seasonally bound as spring (even though it is easier to make pictures in spring than in autumn, it should still be possible to make pictures of animals or plants with colourful leaves, last blooms, drying up...) - it still would exclude other interpretations of spring (as long as they don't include a tradition... ;->)... perhaps Helen can help us decide what would be fine for the southern hemisphere (even though not every challenge has to be possible for everybody - after all, there will be four possibilities to choose from)

I love the black and green and heavy metal ideas (both are creative and already make me think of possibilities), but I'm less sure of four elements (seems very broad to me - if it is enough to have one of the elements depicted you can include everything from wave pictures to candle flames) and I fear that politics and politicians is a difficult challenge theme (a bit like newsworthy) - if you decide to use it, it's probably a good idea to have it longer than a month. About local food and drinks - I'd suggest waiting until traditions is finished, as there is an overlap (traditional Easter food), which would make it possible to submit a picture in both challenges... (is that allowed? I don't think we discussed that possibility... ;->)

Looking forward to the new challenges (that I don't have to decide! ;->) --Anna reg (talk) 09:20, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

My main concern is that we have themes with good participation levels and clearly defined focus. Are many of us knowledgeable enough to do "undocumented species/cultivars"? I'm not keen to waste the opportunity to celebrate "spring" by having some general wildlife theme that could happen any time of year -- which is what trying to please everyone in every theme will do. Please let's not make our concerns about international or city-vs-country issues prevent us running great themes that could be very popular. On Anna's concern, "food and drink" could be swapped with "black and green" to avoid overlap with "traditions". Participation on the challenge has fallen a bit in both nominations and voting (to be expected for various reasons, certainly not Anna's fault). To restore that we need not only inspiring themes that encourage lots of submissions, but also themes that produce high quality images that reviewers will enjoy voting on. -- Colin (talk) 09:48, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I think it would also be a good idea to ask if the photo challenge can be represented via a link on the main page - does anybody know where such a question should be discussed? I could ask Mono, who seems to take care of the main page...
About the undocumented species/cultivars - I'm probably quite biased on that topic, as I do a lot of clean-up etc. with cultivars - especially for the Rosa categories and galleries - and I know that there are already hundreds of photos of crocuses, hyacinths, tulips and flowering cherry trees, but that there are not a lot of identified cultivars - even if in some cases it would have been easy to get that information (flower shows, botanical gardens, even florists often have a sign telling you which cultivar it is). Of course identification is much more difficult (and with cultivars often even impossible) if you have to do it on your own... but as the usefulness-aspect shouldn't dominate the whole challenge, perhaps it would be a good idea to choose a broader subject and think of adding the extra vote encyclopedically useful to honor that facet of commons... (by the way, I think the heart seems to work fine)
Anna reg (talk) 10:47, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I started the new challenges of April in the morning (German Time) and also started the voting pages - feel free to add, correct my english, comment, whatever ... Best regards, -- Achim Raschka (talk) 09:48, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for keeping the ball rolling Achim Raschka. HelenOnline 09:17, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

February 2014 Winners

Newsworthy: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Author	Sven0705	Crisco 1492	The Photographer
Score	49	46	38

Two of something: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image		Deleted (File:Murano Campiello della Pescheria 2014 02.jpg)
Author	Baresi franco	Joadl	Abrget47j
Score	50	26	12

Congratulations to User:Sven0705, User:Crisco 1492, User:The Photographer, User:Baresi franco, User:Joadl and User:Abrget47j. -- Colin (talk) 20:31, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Congratulations to all the winners and thank you to all the entrants, voters and especially Anna and Colin for their organisational efforts (and anyone else I left out by mistake). HelenOnline 09:14, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Deleted image

What should we do about the deleted image in 2nd place? It isn't straightforward to decide whether or not to replace it with 3rd place and move the 4th (joint in this case) up to 3rd.

For

• The image is not a valid file on Commons so can't fit the rules. It never was free, even though it took a while to be deleted.
• If the file had been deleted during the entry month, we'd never have voted on it. If it had been deleted during voting, it wouldn't have got any more votes and people might have shifted their vote. Either way, it wouldn't have got 2nd place.
• It is important that images fit both the Commons rules and the Theme rules, even if the issues are spotted late. For example, if the image turned out to be taken outside of the competition month or already uploaded (under a different name, for example) or some other clear breach that would make their win unfair.

Against

• The image was taken, uploaded and submitted in good-faith. It isn't as though the photographer deliberately photographed a copyright work or stole someone else's image from Flickr, for example.
• The image was still on Commons during voting and when the awards were handed out.
• If the image had been deleted earlier, people's votes would be different and it is quite possible that the other two winners might be different -- merely moving up the list doesn't make the results look as though the deleted image was never there.

There may be other arguments. Clearly the best thing is for us all to look out for image issues before voting starts, because anything we do after that isn't great. I think I'd be keen to fix the results if it turned out the image was a bad faith nom (like a stolen photo) or clearly didn't fit the rules as not to do so would be unfair on those who missed out. But where to draw the line? -- Colin (talk) 14:44, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

In the interests of motivating people who submitted valid entries, I vote to move the next one up etc. We need to be extra careful of submitting photos of artistic works in future. I know what is allowed where I live and if it was something borderline I would probably not enter it in the challenge in case it got deleted. HelenOnline 15:24, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

While I'm very undecided about my opinion on moving the pictures up or not, I do have two more point against:

• time - how long do we want to change the results after a competition is closed? Depending on when the mistakes are spotted, the deletion requests can happen at different points (we already had several during the submission period, which is of course ideal; as far as I know one during the voting period and now a prominent one just after the results were presented).
• learning effect - if we want to encourage new users to participate, mistakes are normal and this one can help to make people aware of the rules in their country.

Anna reg (talk) 15:54, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

May be we can just add the 4th in the winner's board and leave empty the 2nd ? --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 16:24, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

I vote we either move the up the places so 3rd place now becomes 2nd, or at least display the 4th place winners for this particular event as a special case. --ZeWrestler (talk) 08:17, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

+1, I think the empty slot looks bad. I don't see why we can't move them up. — Julian H.^✈(talk/files) 08:43, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Re "how long", I would not worry about anything nominated for deletion after the results have been announced. In this case, the image was nominated for deletion without objection during March. HelenOnline 17:20, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Image descriptions

rant ahead: I am getting a bit fed up with images being uploaded without categories or adequate descriptions, e.g. I would expect entries for Commons:Photo challenge/2014 - April - Food and drinks worldwide to specify a geographical location. I have been adding some categories to images but am not prepared to do this on an ongoing basis. If the idea of the challenge is to encourage people to upload images, we need better information to be able to make the best use of the images. HelenOnline 08:59, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

May challenges

So just started three new challenges as aked for, a bit different from the proposed ones above:

• Flowers and insects - for flowers and insects combined
• Bridges - as classical architectural topic
• Time for sports - for sports photographers, two months

I hope you enjoy! -- Achim Raschka (talk) 06:31, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

• "Bridges"? That is (probably unintentionally) prohibitive to photographers in areas which do not recognize freedom of panorama. I know of few, if any, bridges here in Indonesia that would be both aesthetically pleasing and without a doubt in the public domain here. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:05, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

If you think it necessary, we could add a warning in the challenge description, linking to the freedom of panorama description. I'm once again curious to see how the challenges turn out - in my opinion you chose some fairly difficult topics... Anna reg (talk) 11:50, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

But surely many bridges are out of copyright? It doesn't need to be a major bridge -- could be some old foot bridge over a stream. Still I maintain that we should not obstruct or complain about challenges where some group is unable to take part -- this is true for most challenges whether the obstacle is season of the year, urban/rural, copyright issues, or simply lack of the appropriate equipment (such as a macro lens to capture high quality insect photos). Add to this the fact that some challenges simply don't interest some people. As they say, you can't please everyone all the time. There are two other challenges. -- Colin (talk) 12:29, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

• Fair points, Colin, regarding how some topics are intrinsically unavailable for some locations/people. Re: the bridges... 50 years post-construction for anonymous works, and the vast majority of bridges (even the less attractive ones) I've seen were constructed much more recently than that... There may be TOO considerations, but I haven't seen much discussion about TOO and architectural photography on Commons. Do you know of any discussions? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 17:07, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

What do you mean by TOO? I'm really amazed about your statement that most bridges are < 50 years old in Indonesia. Do you why that might be? In the UK some are over a thousand years old and we have, for example, the first ever iron bridge. -- Colin (talk) 17:50, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

• COM:Threshold of originality; some "statues", like one shaped like a standard bicycle (don't quite recall the name of the AFD though), have been found not to pass it. Would a bunch of logs with planks over them (like what I passed to go to Turgo, Sleman, a few years back) pass the threshold? Maybe not.

Indonesia had a lot of infrastructure built by the Dutch, but much of it was destroyed during the Japanese occupation (1942–45) and Revolution (1945–49). Suharto's pro-development period probably replaced a lot of the surviving bridges (not just bridges... WWII, the Revolution, and decades of Sukarno and Suharto took their tolls on a variety of infrastructures and documentation). Mind, a bit of in-depth investigation might find something. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:04, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Dear all, sorry for the late reply, just arrived from a trip from Berlin where I was the last days very busy as a judge for the German writing contest. @Crisco 1492: You are right, I did not consider FOP as a problem - sorry for this - but as Colin told I think that there are not only new bridges and in every challenge will be some who cannot contribute for some reasons (as I will not dot for e.g. sports since I've never made any pic in that area) - so especially for Indonesia it would be great to have some entries on the flowers & insects topics with some tropical beetles, butterflies ... . I hope all challenges will work well and I am very curious about the entries. Best regards, -- Achim Raschka (talk) 20:25, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

• I'd love to get some insects. :-)  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:34, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

March 2014 Winners

Proverbs and idioms: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Title	Dead men tell no tales	Nothing ventured, nothing gained	Fire is a good servant but a bad master
Author	Jan.Kamenicek	Lesekreis	Jan.Kamenicek
Score	45	18	16

Surface textures: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Author	Nikodem Nijaki	Julian Herzog	Nandaro
Score	20	18	13

Congratulations to User:Jan.Kamenicek × 2, User:Lesekreis, User:Nikodem Nijaki, User:Julian Herzog and User:Nandaro. -- Colin (talk) 19:43, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I am so happy with the 2nd place in the challenge "Proverbs and idioms"! Thanks to all who voted for my photo and thanks to Anna and Colin and anyone else for the great organization. Congratulations to all the winners - nice weekend and many greetings Lesekreis (talk) 09:39, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

2014 - May - Flowers AND insects...

Hi all.

Something missing in the description : flower(s) AND insect(s) because some entries do not have insect so I removed them. If I did wrong I beg.

And, is there a choice : flower(s) OR plant(s) ??? A blade of grass is enough, a thin branch too ???

Need to be clearer, please.

A pic of a worm on the Mayflower is cool ? --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 04:35, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

If we allow non-insect arthropods, we should also have some leniency with "flowers" to include perhaps fruits and seedpods... or any other parts that were or will be flowers (but not cultivated yet). I'm less sure about leaves, stems and branches, but I won't object to them as long as the guidelines are clear. Thanks for bringing up the issue while the challenge is still at an early stage. Lastly, the word combined should stand out a bit more. How about COMBINED? --Nandaro (talk) 18:06, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• My opiniom is that the theme should be clear (it is) and enforced strictly. A flower is a flower, is a flower. And an insect is an insect, is an insect. -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 18:22, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • The detailed description is clear. It is unfortunate that the title isn't -- as the title should properly exclude spiders and the "and" in the title is ambiguous wrt whether both need to be present. Something to bear in mind in future that many people "don't read the instructions" so the title needs to be very clear. And I agree that bolding the vital bits can be helpful. In the early challenges, I asked a couple of nominators if they would reconsider their nomination as it didn't really fit the theme (and because it was one of the first few nominations, would be confusing to future nominators). In the recent "Surface textures" theme, I didn't monitor the nominations closely and when working on the voting pages noticed that quite a lot weren't actually "Surface textures" but just patterns. So I think it is best if we monitor the nomination and remove obviously faulty ones. Where there is some uncertainty or disagreement, then we can use this talk page to come to consensus. -- Colin (talk) 19:23, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Alvesgaspar, the text includes "other arthropods" and one of the example images has a spider, so "an insect is an insect, is an insect" is too strict unless we change the text. -- Colin (talk) 19:34, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    • You are right Colin, sorry. Let me strike the an insect is an insect, is an insect... Alvesgaspar (talk) 20:49, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

New themes

Here are three ideas for new themes -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 18:21, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

1. Ruins and hauted houses: a challenge for our creators, both in the field ... and in the lab. Example: ;
2. Eyes: of people, pets, insects, spiders... Example:
3. Hair: of people, pets, insects... Example:

I like the ruins one. Not sure about the others (for me personally anyway, but I don't expect all the challenges to suit me). HelenOnline 18:24, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• I like Ruins as well. I've already got 3 or 4 places I can go to. Eyes is fun too; I like for instance. Not sure about hair; too repetitive if we have eyes.. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:00, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I think we should have only one of "eyes" and "hair" at the same time, because otherwise it's too focused on anatomy. I don't personally find any of these themes particularly interesting, but that is just me, and it is not an objection or criticism. BTW, perhaps it would be a good idea to set up a separate "brainstorming" subpage for a list of theme proposals… darkweasel94 13:15, 12 May 2014 (UTC) darkweasel94 13:15, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

For June I think D-Day, Atlatic Wall, Landing or this kind of stuff could be a good theme for the 70° anniversary. Keeping the memory... --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 14:57, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure if 'outsourcing' the theme discussions will encourage participation or not, but as I find it more and more difficult to find the ideas already suggested, I just created the subpage /themes - we will see if it's a good idea or not... Anna reg (talk) 10:37, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I think that's a very good idea, but it should be linked more prominently so people can find it. I'd say: Place a big banner at the top of this page and enter something like "Everyone is invited to suggest new themes or comment on other proposals here." to the "Formal things" box on the main page. --El Grafo (talk) 09:52, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I didn't want to do that before I knew that more than two people liked the idea... but you are right that the link I made here is quite well hidden - thus making it difficult to get opinions on its usefulness... ;-> Anna reg (talk) 10:30, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Volunteer

I'm looking for someone to choose & help run the themes for June/July. I could appoint someone but (hopefully I won't regret asking) does anyone want to volunteer?

The first responsibility is simply to choose/create well-defined themes. I don't care much whether you try gather suggestions first, or preview your ideas, but ultimately you simply have to decide. I haven't found "waiting for consensus to develop" to be a useful method -- there are simply too many good options and too many people with their own opinions. If we see the upcoming themes in advance, then hopefully we can refine the wording to avoid any problems with ambiguity -- but everyone should respect that the person in charge that month has the final say and is bound to not please somebody.

In addition to choosing themes, you need to decide what restrictions to impose. I think we definitely need to keep the "new to Commons" restriction, to differentiate from other quality forums on Commons. But I would like to retain at least some themes with a "taken during the challenge period" to give extra encouragement to folks to get out with their camera. Possibly the best balance is to use this additional restriction for themes likely to be popular or which are already well-supplied with images on Commons.

I have some programs that count the votes and that prepare the new voting pages. They also do some checking that voters and their votes are valid, and display some date taken/uploaded information on the voting page so we can exclude invalid nominations before voting takes place. So I'll carry on with setting up voting pages and creating the results page until we can replace that with some online system.

At the end of the month the existing pages for nominations and voting need to be closed. If there is a short delay before the new pages are up, then that isn't the end of the world. Once both voting and nominations pages are set up, we can make a watchlist notice.

So that's the process. If you have suggestions for changed to this process then start a new section below. In the mean time, anyone like to volunteer?

-- Colin (talk) 14:45, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I will do it if nobody else will. I might need some help with the technical stuff (updating banners etc). HelenOnline 08:07, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I feared we'd be inundated with offers and have the same problem picking someone as we have picking themes! Good. Thanks, Helen. Here's the diff for the last Watchlist notice I made. The tricky bit is just that it is quite a long notice with lots of wikilinks. We need to try to keep it fairly short yet still mention the relevant pages. And to wait for both voting and nominations pages to be ready-to-go before posting. The voting page is the hardest bit to do but I've got a program for that now. You can post me a message on my talk page if you have any questions. -- Colin (talk) 12:10, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not good enough in english to do more than I do here... If it was all in French I'd be very pleased to participate more . --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 17:31, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Tentative June–July themes

I still have some work to do but will park this here for now in case anyone has constructive input. I don't expect to please everybody – the best way to get themes you are happy with would be to volunteer for the next round.

May–June

• Time for sports (already in progress)

June

• Wiki loves Pride
• Military appreciation (N.B. May is the US National Military Appreciation Month)

June–July:

• Ruins and haunted places

I haven't thought about July themes yet. HelenOnline 10:49, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I think that all three themes are more on the difficult side (not that easy to find possibilities to make pictures or already have some you'd like to upload) and it would mean three 'people oriented challenges'. Personally I'm not a fan of military appreciation - but then I'm not even sure if I understand the theme... e.g. would it include the D-Day celebrations Llann Wé² mentioned? or statues of generals from a few hundred years ago? ;-> --Anna reg (talk) 11:48, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Military appreciation would include anything related to the military, including the D-Day celebrations (which is too narrow a topic on its own in my opinion). I don't think military appreciation or ruins are necessarily people oriented. HelenOnline 11:53, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

The third theme I thought of was time for sports, not ruins ;-> - and I'm already thinking of aspects of military appreciation I like - making it the most interesting challenge theme at the moment (having to think of interesting interpretations is fun ;->) Anna reg (talk) 12:00, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

@Colin: Were we meant to have April–May and May–June (and June–July) overlapping themes? Help. HelenOnline 12:21, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there's a meant to have - it's your decision as the one responsible for the new themes (you could also decide on only two themes or three themes for June or one for three months) - but it is what we had in April and May. Anna reg (talk) 12:49, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I was just wondering if the original concept for longer themes was rather March–April, May–June, July–August etc? I never realised we had overlapping longer themes until I set them out above. HelenOnline 13:15, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Per Anna. I think the longer themes occurred because it was felt those themes needed more time or to ensure they covered certain calendar events. If there isn't a strong need for it, I'd prefer to keep things simple and just have monthly. What do you think? -- Colin (talk) 13:58, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

OK thanks, I would like to simplify the whole process as much as possible to make it more foolproof so I will leave out the June–July theme. HelenOnline 15:11, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

• Considering the proposed themes for June - Wiki loves Pride and Military appreciation - I would replace at least one of them with something more global and less prone to negative reactions. Notice that both subjects appeare in Wikimedia as strongly connected to US culture and values. -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 15:06, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

OK thanks, I have made some changes above. HelenOnline 15:11, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I've just suggested that because it is the 70th anniversary of the landing in France, meaning the end of WW2 (important thing, no ?). Monuments, museums, bunkers, 'relics'... Except 15-16 countries all the world was involved so everybody can participate. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 16:15, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Could any of that fall under "ruins"? (just checking) Otherwise maybe we can reword that one. HelenOnline 16:46, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

 Comment I love Ruins and haunted places! On the other hand, Military appreciation is a delicate subject... and possibly USA-centric? A war hero to one nation is often viewed as evil elsewhere, even centuries later. How about something less controversial, such as Parent appreciation (to include both Mother's Day & Father's Day and other similar activities), Weddings, Graduation, Vacation, or Romantic spots? Some of these may be too generic so we can narrow them down as necessary. --Nandaro (talk) 16:26, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't going to remove it, just thought maybe e.g. ruins of the Atlantic Wall might also be fit in there somehow. Otherwise, we have enough for June. HelenOnline 18:06, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

The Atlantic Wall and other "walls" built for fortification, e.g., the Great Wall of China, could have a theme of their own, but themes can overlap and I think it's OK to include the Atlantic Wall under Ruins and haunted places. BTW, my previous comment was not in response to your previous comment (if you compare the time stamps). I had posted it to the wrong discussion page and someone kindly copied it here for me. Sorry for the confusion. I've adjusted the indentation to hopefully make it less confusing. Nandaro (talk) 18:39, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

OK no problem. We could also explicitly include graveyards in "Ruins and haunted places" as those themes are linked? HelenOnline 07:09, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

I also like Ruins and haunted places. For the other theme, perhaps something more micro? "Ruins" is fairly macro, and most of the suggestions here are too. "Household object", maybe? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:41, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

The new challenges are up and running on the main page. It will take a couple of days to update the voting and results pages. HelenOnline 11:07, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I like the proposal from Crisco 1492 to have "Household objects" as a theme. I think Crisco also suggested "transportation", which I like as well. However, both of these themes sound perhaps a little boring. For transportation how about "On the move". It leaves some room for the imagination of what could be "on the move"? --Slaunger (talk) 15:47, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

• "On the move" could be fun too. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:16, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
• I like "On the move" and agree that allowing some imagination is good for a theme. But am worried that "transportation" is hugely well represented on Commons already -- we don't really need to motivate anyone to take a new picture of a train in a station imo. Since this is a Photographic Challenge, how about we challenge people to take images of something literally "on the move". Capturing that movement in a still image. The obvious techniques that come to mind are panning while taking the shot, to blur the background; freezing the motion with a very fast shutter or flash so everything is in mid air; long(ish) exposure so that the moving objects are blurred. That would I think be a superior challenge.
• Taking the "household objects" idea, static pictures of objects could be boring unless one is very clever with lighting, etc. But if we stated the objects were "in use", then that could be more interesting as well as good illustrative value for educational purposes. This is an area that Commons is actually very weak on, compared to professional stock photo sites. I'm not sure how to word this as a theme name, though. -- Colin (talk) 07:06, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

• 
  "on the move"
• 
  "on the move"
• 
  "on the move"
• 
  "on the move"
• 
  "household object" "in use"
• 
  "household object" "in use"

Both themes do sound very interesting - even if your interpretation of "on the move" sounds difficult for us less experienced photographers (but I have nothing against trying new things... and I'm still looking more at the insects on all those roses I'm photographing and trying to find out, how I can manage to get them in focus and sharp ;->). However, in my opinion it overlaps quite a lot with "time for sports", so I'm not sure if it's a good idea to use already next month... I've added both to Commons:Photo challenge/themes --Anna reg (talk) 07:56, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks Anna. I think I've been here too long. I recognized Colin's iron immediately, as well as his image of King's Cross. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:09, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

The iron is still going strong, which is remarkable since we have such hard water. What I find interesting is that stock photo agencies have loads of pictures of beautiful people doing things -- that's what people want to illustrate their articles, including educationally. Whereas Commons has very few. So our WP articles are illustrated with static product shots of an item on someone's desk or carpet. I know that personality rights issues make people reluctant to model stuff for free, but the person doesn't have to be identifiable, with their head in the frame. Anna, could the Commons:Photo challenge/themes page be expanded to give room for each suggested theme to have some explanation and possible example images (like above). Perhaps a sub-sub-section for each theme suggestions. People can comment/refine on each suggestion and we can mark the used ones with a tick. -- Colin (talk) 10:34, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

If you have an idea how to do that without having the discussions there, of course. Or we could try to make each point in the list a link to a section on the themes discussion page, were we could discuss it... sort of having pro and cons for each topic there (perhaps using the  Support,  Oppose and  Comment templates), but still proposing 'July themes' here... could work, but could also get confusing...

As for the tick - I removed the last themes (e.g. ruins and haunted places), as they can be found in the section above, but of course we could also leave them in the list and mark them...

By the way, do you have any additional statistics that in your opinion could be interesting to add to the table?

--Anna reg (talk) 15:44, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes I know the dilemma about where to discuss. I think the proposed coming themes might still be best discussed here to gain eyes, but themes that don't make it to immediate selection could be archived there and possibly refined to be brought back later. Don't know what's best.

For columns, I'd be interested in how many images were taken during the challenage (where no restriction was imposed). I might add that later. -- Colin (talk) 17:00, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I am having a busy week so just skimmed the above. One of the themes I was mulling over for next month is "Tools of the trade" which could be adapted to or include household tools. HelenOnline 07:56, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Tentative themes for July (two of the following)

• Primary colors (RGBY manmade objects) (manmade objects in one or more of red, green, blue and yellow should feature predominantly)
• Seven
• Tools of the trade

HelenOnline 12:21, 20 June 2014 (UTC) Primary colors examples:

• 
  Category:Red
• 
  Category:Green
• 
  Category:Blue
• 
  Category:Yellow
• 
  Category:Blue and red
• 
  Category:Red and yellow
• 
  Category:Blue and green
• 
  Category:Blue and yellow
• 
  Category:Green and yellow
• 
  Category:Green and red
• 
  Category:Blue, green, red
• 
  Category:Blue, red, yellow
• 
  Category:Green, red, yellow
• 
  Category:Blue, green, yellow
• 
  Category:Blue, green, red, yellow

Tools of the trade examples:

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 

Sounds fun to me. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:12, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Are you planning a two month theme, too? (Just curious...) --Anna reg (talk) 08:31, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

No, I prefer to keep things simple. HelenOnline 08:58, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the proposed themes and for the preparation. About the "Primary coulours" theme, both w:RYB color model (red–yellow–blue) and w:RGB color model (red–green–blue) will be on topic? --Myrabella (talk) 10:11, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Is the "Primary color" theme meant to have a single dominant primary colour, or to use all three in one image, or perhaps just two? If multiple, then imo adding yellow just makes it too colourful and open and less logical. I think that for us to successfully prepare the theme topics, we need more than just the titles. So could you give also the explanatory text that defines the topic precisely. And some example photo thumbnails if you intend to use them. -- Colin (talk) 10:29, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Sorry I won't have time to flesh these out much in advance of the month end deadline due to other Wiki priorities with June deadlines. The input I get here guides the final details anyway. I am leaning towards #1 and #3. I have been keeping my eyes open for examples of Seven and it is not that easy. For Primary colors, I was thinking that one or more of RGBY colours should feature predominantly in the photo. One way we could make this less open is to restrict it to photos of manmade things (no blue skies, green leaves etc). HelenOnline 11:21, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the inclusion of "household objects in use" in the tools theme, I think this should be saved for the (northern) winter months when outdoor themes are more challenging. HelenOnline 15:39, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Manmade objects? Oh... well, I guess I'll upload my rice field pictures anyways. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:16, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. Not sure if you are joking here but that would be very confusing if you did. I don't think farming makes the rice (or field) a "manmade" object. It would quickly be confusing if that counted, as then the flower in my garden would be "manmade" since someone planted it. -- Colin (talk) 15:22, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

They might mean upload it anyway but not submit it? We can have Primary colors in nature as a later theme, as well as monochromatic challenges etc. HelenOnline 17:10, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

• About the "Primary colors" theme, do artworks count (example)? Just to know—most contemporary artworks I have in mind would probably be copyrighted I guess. --Myrabella (talk) 17:43, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
• If the goal of this contest is making our photographers go out and find good themes, I wouldn't allow reproductions of artwork. Perhaps with the exception of own works? Alvesgaspar (talk) 17:53, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

• I haven't excluded artworks and I think it may be tricky to know where to draw the line on what is art and what is not. I have included a general note about avoiding copyvio among other things, as I did in June. Personally, I wouldn't rate photographs of artworks on display highly as there is little skill involved in it. HelenOnline 18:21, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

• I was thinking about photographs of sculptures, like this one—that can be a bit more creative than a faithful reproduction of a painting. Anyway, I won't have time this month to travel in Germany in order to collect photographs that I could upload freely thanks to FOP ;) Thank you a lot for setting up the July challenge. --Myrabella (talk) 09:53, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

• Something with sculptures would be lovely. Many of our images of sculptures are objectively terrible. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:59, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

@Colin: Helen got it. I'll be uploading those images but not submitting them for this challenge (might be able to work one or two into "tools of the trade", however). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:30, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

The July challenges are up and running on the main page. It will take a couple of days to update the voting and results pages. FYI I have created a month-end template of sorts in my sandbox which future volunteers may find useful. HelenOnline 08:06, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Categories and challenge requirements

Would it be possible to build in some kind of alert for editors to check the challenge requirements and add the challenge categories when adding entries? I (and User:Llann Wé²) have been checking entries but will probably run out of steam soon. :P HelenOnline 15:06, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

LGBT-related challenge as part of Wiki Loves Pride 2014?

Greetings! I was wondering about the possibility of having a photo challenge related to LGBT culture and history, as part of Wikipedia:Wiki Loves Pride 2014. This would be for the month (or part of the month) of June, when pride celebrations often take place. Thoughts? Or, is there another avenue in which this discussion should take place? I'd be more than happy to update the Wiki Loves Pride page with details about the Commons project, if the challenge comes to fruition. Please let me know if you have any questions. --Another Believer (talk) 18:43, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

• I am participating in this effort and saw Another Believer's notice about it. In the United States, June is LGBT pride month. See also en:Gay_pride_month#LGBT_Pride_Month. LGBT pride is not an inappropriate choice for June and beyond Wikipedia, there will be photos from around the world of all sorts of pride events shared online in this month. Blue Rasberry (talk) 18:58, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I understand I will be choosing and running the themes for June/July, and would be happy to accommodate you in June. HelenOnline 21:50, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely wonderful news, Helen. Thank you so much! Ping me if you need any information about Wiki Loves Pride, etc. I look forward to contribution to this project, and I will be sure to include some details about the photo challenge on the main WLP page. --Another Believer (talk) 14:49, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Another Believer, you're welcome. Pinging Fæ too as the most active user here with similar interests. Jee 15:21, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Depiction of images in contest

I don't like the way pictures in contest are depicted when we click on them. The image file, with all the attached information, should be available. -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 23:01, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

• Those which are up for voting, or those which have just been submitted? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:02, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

It is the new media viewing experience for all images on Commons. I don't like it either and have disabled it (Preferences, Appearance). HelenOnline 06:33, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

• Oh, that. I missed that. It's like Flickr now. *shudder*. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:59, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Outsourcing the theme discussions (to /themes)

darkweasel proposed creating a new page for the theme discussions - something I already wished for while trying to decide on the challenge themes for February and March. I therefore created the subpage /themes and now would like to have your opinion if the theme discussions should really be moved to a separate page.

Could you please vote  Support or  Oppose? Anna reg (talk) 12:06, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

 Support Good idea. HelenOnline 12:16, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. Not sure it is a good idea. I do think this page has grown to now need an auto archiver (anyone care to set one up? -- it has been a while since I last did it so I forget how). But at least a reasonable number of people have this on their watchlist. Sub-pages aren't necessarily going to be monitored as well or even known about by new people. Is there really a big problem with discussions happening here? It isn't as though there are so many pending discussions that one can't keep track of them all. -- Colin (talk) 12:21, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

That it could reduce involvement is my biggest fear and the reason I didn't propose it till know - but while normally this page doesn't change a lot it sometimes has several discussions at the same time - and I'm quite sure that some of them are overlooked - but normally not the theme discussions. I think that's the case as the theme discussions are a topic many people are interested in, so I would suspect that a subpage would be added to their watchpages - and this page would be for other questions which sometimes don't get as much attention as they should. I was also thinking of starting an archive, but to archivate former theme discussions without having a subpage would mean more or less losing former ideas, which is why I am pushing that idea more than the other. Anna reg (talk) 12:36, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

 Comment It seems most of the non-theme-related discussions here are on the initial and/or general setup of the structure and rules of the challenges... and probably will not come up again unless someone wants to make a major revision. In other words, most topics that will be discussed hereon will likely be on themes so I'm not sure if a separate archive would be necessary (although I do understand how difficult it can be to find things in archives). On the other hand, I like being able to tell what topics have already been used and what topics have been suggested, all on one concise page, just like the test page. It will be more and more useful as the list grows; think of two years from now, for example. Also, we should consider having "Previous challenges" on a separate page. The "Previous challenges" section will have more and more photos, adding weight to the page, i.e., the entire page will take longer and longer to load and will be inconvenient to people who just want to check the rules. Nandaro (talk) 18:01, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think we've yet really matured our system for proposing/choosing themes. We see above a few proposed themes. Then someone doesn't like one of them and suggests some alternatives. And then more alternatives are proposed and it just grows like some tangled weed. There's no group process that prunes it back down to a consensus -- only one that continues to grow the weed. Hence the best solution I have at present is that we distribute across the group and over time, the responsibility for making a decision. I'm sure any one of us, if asked, could spend an hour or two and fill a page with hundreds of themes in all sorts of categories. There's no shortage of reasonable theme choices. It is a bit harder to decide which two or three to run next month. I don't know of any technique for picking "best" and consider that such a goal may be misguided. Perhaps "good" is enough, and most of us are intelligent enough to come up with "good" themes. Does anyone have any better ideas? -- Colin (talk) 19:26, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Video entries?

As month end is approaching, I was checking that the number of May entries on the photo challenge page tally with that in the corresponding category and noticed two videos added to Category:Photo challenge/2014 - May - Flowers and insects by Pristurus that have not been added to the list at Commons:Photo challenge/2014 - May - Flowers and insects. @Pristurus: please note submissions will not be eligible for the challenge unless also added to the photo challenge page. However, I am not sure if videos are eligible? Help. HelenOnline 08:04, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello, In my opinion, the "Photo challenge" concerns only photographs, no videos. It presentation defines clearly the eligible media: "The Photo Challenge inspires photographers to take great pictures [...] Photographs entered into a competition must be new to Commons and taken by a Commons user. [...]". --Myrabella (talk) 08:18, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

There was a question raised about other media right at the top of the page. I was keen to keep things simple to begin with and not sure how other media might fit with challenges aimed at photographers. Perhaps I could have submitted the video version of my File:Plasma globe 60th.jpg in that first challenge. The insects-on-flowers videos (and the plasma globe) are just "moving pictures" versions of the still frame a photographer might take. My feeling is to be relaxed and inclusive about this and permit them. I know someone might think it unfair they didn't know videos could be submitted (and so might have) but it isn't as though we are offering a $1000 prize to the winner. If the videos were taken and uploaded as part of the challenge then the challenge has been successful. This is Achim Raschka's theme, so I'd be interested in his view. -- Colin (talk) 09:10, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Mmh ... I am not sure. I am a fanboy if it's on the videos of @Pristurus: who added lots of very good videos to articles I wrote in the German Wikipedia so maybe I am not neutral here. At the end: What counts are good files for commons comong from the challenge and if there are no real objections I would say they count. -- Achim Raschka (talk) 09:26, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I am not against including other media in the challenge—I would have preferred to keep it simple but I totally agree that what really matters is to collect fresh and goods files upoaded thanks to the challenge, and to have fun :) I just wonder if that widening will make the choice more difficult for voters (by the way, it seems to me that the number of voters tends to fall a bit, but I may be wrong). --Myrabella (talk) 10:34, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I share your concern about different media being difficult to compare for judging winners. In this case, they are similar enough that I think we can compare. Perhaps we can get feedback later on how people found comparing the two. Or wait to see if a future challenge has a problem and deal with it then. Wrt numbers, for the first couple of challenges, I spammed people's talk pages to drum up support from people who had shown an interested. I guess we could do this same next month with a list of everyone who has entered/voted. I wouldn't want to do that all the time, though. I must get round to voting myself... -- Colin (talk) 10:44, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

The number of voters decreased from December to March, after your first campaign: Commons:Photo_challenge/themes. Let's wait April results and let's keep in mind your suggestion of a new advertising campaign soon—but that's another topic than videos :) --Myrabella (talk) 11:19, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Photo challenge is not Video challenge, I agree with Myrabella. So : not eligible IMAO. Let's create a video chalenge ? --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 01:44, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

The reason for nominating these files was to show that video is also able to describe a given theme. However I don´t think it would be a fair idea to compare a photo to an other kind of medium. So in my opinion it would be a better way to leave videos (without a change of choice) out of competition, but within the category of the challenge. If in future more people will submit videos (>10 people?) we can start for this kind of files a separate voting process. Greetings, --Pristurus (talk) 23:17, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes; it is better to run videos as a separate challenge theme. No need to wait for ten participants; if we start one, it will encourage people to try one. That is the primary intention of this project. So why not try "insects mating", "insects hunting" or "insects on flower" (videos only) as a challenge for next month? (The name "Photo challenge" is just incidental; we can read it as "Media challenge" if necessary.) Jee 05:52, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

• We're just wrapping up an insect theme. Something else, perhaps? "Transportation"? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:22, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

• Yes; any topic can be. :) Jee 10:38, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd be in a right mess if I only started thinking about June challenges now. I still have to figure out how to get it all up and running by midnight tonight. :) HelenOnline 10:48, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Ok. We seem to have concluded that the videos are not part of the challenage wrt voting. I wish there sufficient people making nature videos for Commons to make a challenge viable but very much doubt a "video challenage" would succeed on its own -- but I'm happy to be proved wrong. If anyone setting the theme for future challenges wants to explicitly open the scope to include videos (or other media) then I have no problem with that provided they realise the result has to be a collection of media files that can be judged together. -- Colin (talk) 21:22, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Video vs GIF...

Hi.

Because we decided we won't start a video challenge can't we make a concession to animation in a GIF challenge ? Some GIF made with a fex pictures (up to 10 ?) could be fine for illutrating some wikipages, no ?

--Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 17:19, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

April winners

Traditions: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	2
image		[[File:Deleted (File:Lego_Easter_Bunny_drowning_in_eggs.jpg)|x240px]]
Title	Easter bunny after work.	Lego Easter Bunny minifig drowning in chocolate minieggs	Little girl praying in front of Vishukkani on Vishu
Author	Lesekreis	Mightyhansa	Clockery
Score	37	19	19

Food and drinks worldwide: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Title	Octopus arms suntanned - Thasos, Greece.	Filet mignon with potato and string beans	Oysters and lemons in a basket
Author	Nikodem Nijaki	Ɱ	Nikodem Nijaki
Score	36	15	14

Four Elements: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Title	Burned candle and spilled wax	Water droplet on a leaf	Fire sleeps within the bowels of the Earth (Merapi, 2014)
Author	Nikodem Nijaki	Mightyhansa	Crisco 1492
Score	19	17	15

Congratulations to Lesekreis, User:Mightyhansa, Clockery, Nikodem Nijaki, Ɱ, Crisco 1492. The exact voting result for "Food and drinks worldwide" is uncertain as there were a couple of mistakes in voting. I've asked two users to correct their votes, but regardless, it doesn't affect the overall winning places. I'll publish the full results once the votes are corrected. -- Colin (talk) 18:34, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you, Colin, and everybody for organizing another delightful photo challenge. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:06, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
• Thank you Colin for counting the votes and updating the results etc, and to everybody who participated and helped in the background. Congratulations to all the winners! HelenOnline 09:27, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
• Thanks to all for the great work and the votes for my photo. My twelve years old little rabbit and I are very happy! Lesekreis (talk) 10:50, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Flowers AND insects - invalid nom

File:Laab im Walde - Bärenberg - Gelbwürfeliger Dickkopffalter (Carterocephalus palaemon).jpg contains now flower. So I think this one should be removed ASAP. Also User:AmaryllisGardener would need to change their vote. -- Colin (talk) 16:58, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

@Colin: Changed. It's a shame, that was a good picture. --AmaryllisGardener ^talk 22:08, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

I've removed it. Someone else voted too, so I've asked them to re-vote. Yes, it is a shame. -- Colin (talk) 06:58, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

I was wondering whether, in general, one should just keep the nominated photos in the contest irrespective if 'some' find it is not in scope. Surely, that will also be seen in the votes, if voters find it does not fit with the theme. Not so controversial in this case, but for a competition with the four elements, there is a much broader range of interpretation of what could be perceived as an illustration of the elements. I'm just wondering if it is worth the effort to police the nominations for being in scope. --Slaunger (talk) 15:41, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

As far as I know, that's what happens in most cases - sometimes with a comment on the voting page to point out that a picture doesn't really fit as Colin did during the Surface textures-voting. The strange thing is that it's not necessarily reflected in the votes, which is why Colin asked if we shouldn't just remove pictures which really don't fit the theme - as was done with several pictures without insects for this contest. I think the one Colin removed remained as it's a bit more controversial - at least there were plants and an insect in the picture - but as the theme asked for flowers and not plants, I think it was correct to remove it... Anna reg (talk) 18:31, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

It would be useful, Slaunger, if you read some of the existing talk page :-). We have a problem that an early misguided nomination could upset the whole challenge and lead to lots of inappropriate nominations. Plus, keeping to the challenge (flowers + insects) is much hard to take/select than just ignoring one of the theme aspects -- and if that were to win because it was a great photo, then people who stuck to the theme might well feel upset. I'd certainly feel upset if a butterfly with no flower won the competition. I think if removing a pic is controversial then take it here to discuss. -- Colin (talk) 18:38, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I promise that from now on, I will read the talk page before making any more "clever" suggestions. Given that you have had several problems with nominations not fitting with the theme, and that this does not stop people from voting, it of course makes sense to remove such nominations. --Slaunger (talk) 19:10, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Tatsache ist, daß ich auch andere Bilder nominiert hatte, die entweder nur Insekten oder nur Blumen zeigten. Diese wurden gleich zu Beginn von einem User entfernt (finde leider die dazupassende Versionsgeschichte nicht, es ist hier alles sehr verwirrend). Dieses eine Bild hat die ganze Nominierungsphase hindurch niemanden gestört - erst, nachdem es eine Stimme bekommen hatte. Hätte man das Bild gleich in der Nominierungsphase entfernt, hätte ich das eingesehen und wie bei den anderen entfernten Bildern nichts gesagt. Aber wenn jemandem erst einfällt, es zu entfernen, nachdem es eine Stimme bekommen hat, ist das für mich ganz schlechter Charakter und unfair zugleich. Man hätte ja auch den Wettbewerbstitel eindeutiger machen können (z.B. Flowers with Insects), um es auch für Leute wie mich, die nicht so gut Englisch können (die Beschreibungen verstehe ich regelmäßig nicht), klarer zu machen. --Häferl (talk) 19:49, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

• Haeferl finds it unfair that the picture was removed after the voting had started. He had some difficulties with the English challenge description (and the ambiguous title) and had other pictures of either insects or flowers removed, but this one seemed to be okay. I think that he has a point and that we should at least take care to avoid that in the future. To help with the language difficulties I translated the challenge descriptions to German using LangSwitch. I'm not sure that's the best solution, but it should work... --Anna reg (talk) 21:40, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there was anything "unfair" about its removal -- it is invalid and would be unfair on everyone else if it won. It is regrettable that it was spotted late and I agree that arranging challenges in advance so we have other languages (esp German, which seems the next most common here?) and a chance to comment on any ambiguity. -- Colin (talk) 06:46, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it is unfair to remove it. I am sorry I missed it, but the reality is the checking is pretty ad hoc and voluntary so if we don't pick it up before voting it may only be picked up during voting. HelenOnline 08:35, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Number of nominations per user

I just went through the nominations for bridges. There were quite a lot to consider, and it was my impression that some users had nominated several photos depicting almost the same bridge or the same kind of bridges from the same area/city. I did not see the several nominations from the same user adding much value to the contest. They mostly fill up a lot of space and make it a quite large task to go through all the nominations prior to deciding. I felt a little fatigued by the end of it, and quite frankly a little bored because there was so much of 'the same'.

I have not followed how this project was formed, but I was wondering if it has been discussed to limit the number of nominations per user? I would actually propose to make a rule saying that only one photo can be nominated by a user within a given theme - to give more diversity, make the voting page more manageable, and to urge nominators to carefully consider what is the best photo they have.

Besides that, I like the project. I like how it is setup, where you are urged to look at the photo, and not the creator prior to voting. --Slaunger (talk) 20:43, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

See Commons talk:Photo challenge#Limit number of entries?. I haven't really changed my opinion. The bridges was the most popular theme so far in terms of entries. It had over 100 images ("a bunch of stuff" was close). Most aren't nearly so big. The lowest was 15. If you think reviewing 100 images is fatiguing, you should try being a pre-selection judge for WLM with thousands of images and often far lower quality than any presented here :-). But seriously, nominators should appreciate that reviewing this large group is quite an onerous task and remember that when nominating. I agree we should encourage people to select their finest and most diverse offerings. I haven't rigorously collated any stats, but I reckon most participants submit several images to each theme. If we limited it to one, I think Commons would have less images and people taking part would have less incentive to take lots of photos. They'd also have to gamble that the one they picked was the winner, and I'm not confident in my own ability to do that. One further problem with imposing a limit, is that it would need to be policed, and policing the existing rules is hard enough. Some ideas:

• Add something to the wording for each theme asking people to select only their finest and most diverse images that fit the theme. Disadvantage is that people don't read instructions.
• Spam every participant so far with a friendly message encouraging participation but with the same request above.
• Identify individuals who are nominating lots of images and send them a personalised message.
• Consider for themes that are easy, likely to be popular and already well-represented on Commons, that we restrict the challenge to only images taken during the challenge period. We don't seem to have done that recently. It does significantly lower the number of nominations, but it also makes it a real challenge, rather than just an image contest.
• Do nothing yet but see if this becomes a frequent problem.

If we had better tools for reviewing images then it would be less fatiguing. For example, one could review the images at a modest size for a first-pass selection and then make a second-pass at full-size to chose your winning images. The UI would then make voting/commenting easier and less error-prone. I think we may be at the stage where we could ask WMF/volunteers for some help automating all aspects of the competition.

-- Colin (talk) 07:21, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I understand Slaunger's concern and agreed with it earlier. But now I understand what Colin is saying. Earlier I too made self reviews and uploaded only my best works in Commons. But now I changed my mind and started uploading all the craps (:D) from a photo session so that people can use whichever they wish. And sometimes people like one that I think not very good. Finally Commons have more pictures! Jee 07:45, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

From my own experience, I can say I really am not a good judge of what people will like. I have been really surprised by which images of mine people voted for. I think it's quite a subjective thing. Regarding rules etc, please keep everything as simple as possible (even voting if possible), it is not easy manually enforcing rules consistently when people speak different languages and/or don't read rules, which also relies on and wastes volunteer resources. HelenOnline 08:21, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I have nothing against any of your suggestions, Colin, but I think doing nothing or adding another sentence (perhaps with an informal upper limit) are the easiest ones... ;->

• writing to every participant so far could be used as an advertising campaign with a small reminder (do you know if we really 'lose' participants? Or do they just participate irregularly?)
• writing to those nominating lots of images seems easier, but has to be done very carefully (as I'm quite sure that all nominators believe that they are selecting among their best - or the contest would look quite different.) - but perhaps we can introduce an informal upper limit (doesn't have to be controlled, but to give a guideline how many pictures are a lot) - e.g. not more than 5 or 10 images - (I just manually checked 'food and drinks' & 'bridges' - the first had 22 nominators, 13 who uploaded more than 1 picture, and 2 who contributed more than 5 pictures; while bridges had 40 nominators, 17 who contributed more than one image - and four who submitted 5 or more pictures - and both contests had one enthusiast uploading more than 10 pictures).
• adding another sentence to the introductions is easily done - and I would hope that it wouldn't mean even fewer readers... ;->

I don't think that it's absolutely necessary to do something - as long as we don't have more than about 100 pictures I think we are still okay - even though I agree with Slaunger that 100 pictures is more or less the upper limit of our voting system (I hope you have a better system for the WLM selections ;->).

Anna reg (talk) 13:37, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I had overlooked that it had been discussed previously, sorry.

• Given that several of you state that an objective is to encourage uploads of more than one file, and that some, e.g., HelenOnline find it hard to find out themselves, what the best candidates are, I agree the number of allowed nominations per user shall be more than one. But I also think that 10 nominations, which has been added by an enthusiast in two contests is excessive and beyond the limit of where you should be able to filter the best out yourself.
• Thus, I would propose to add to the guidelines that nominators are recommended not to nominate more than five photos in a single competition and no more than three photos of the same subject (e.g. no more than three images of the same bridge). Then, if some users abusive the system by spamming a contest with a lot of almost similar nominations and low quality nominations, they could get a friendly heads-up with a pointer to the guideline.
• I see that in one contest the same creator has gotten in on the 1st and 3rd place (of different subjects), so this definitely proves that more than one nomination per user is relevant. I also understand the concerns about having a strict rule, policing, and discouraging contributors. Getting a future script-assisted voting system, where voting is simpler will also be very helpful in avoiding voting fatigue.
• Regarding the proposal to make more frequent use of a requirement that photos shall be taken during the contest period, I would say no to that. The main point is if the contest can trigger people to upload images they would otherwise not have uploaded or forgot they had. For instance, in the bridges contest, I came to think about some decent pics I took in 2009 of a bridge, but had never uploaded. And the bridge contest triggered me into uploading the best I had from that session and add it to the competition. Not something I would have done, if the photo was required to have been taken in May 2014.

-- Slaunger (talk) 15:18, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

• One more thing, regarding cases where the same user nominates many almost similar photos, I also think this will self-regulate over time, as it will tend to diffuse votes among the different variants of the same photo, leading to not so many points on any individual photo, and I think that will automatically encourage people to limit the number of nominations and also learn, which elements in a photo voters like to vote for, thereby training the nominators to better self-evaluation - and filtering prior to nomination. --Slaunger (talk) 15:35, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I take your point about the long-forgotten photo being uploaded to Commons but remember that having a large archive of images (that aren't already on Commons) to draw from puts you at a considerable advantage to others who haven't and who may have been inspired by the challenge to go out and create new images. This isn't a Thematic Featured Picture Competition, but a Photo Challenge. And all other photo challenges on the web require new material -- their purpose is to encourage people to take pictures, not to browse their Lightroom catalogue. As such, I do feel it useful if one theme each month has such a restriction. I suspect that for the popular themes, the winning pictures will tend to be archive photos. If that were to happen frequently, then this is no longer a photo challenge.

Consider these two options:

• This month we challenge you to go out and take a great picture of a bridge, and upload it to Commons.
• This month we want you to review your photo archive to see if there are any great pictures of bridges you haven't yet uploaded to Commons. And if you want to take a new bridge picture, that would be great too.

Both may produce new pictures for Commons, but they are totally different beasts in terms of motivation. One of them will make you a better photographer.

One compromise to consider for a theme is allowing only one archive photo to be nominated per person, but no (reasonable) limit on new photos. -- Colin (talk) 18:09, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

You are making some good points there, Colin. If the main objective is to attract new users, and make them better photographers, your argument certainly has weight, and I will not stand in the way for "purely taken this month" theme (or to impose such a restriction on all themes for that matter). I do not want my archive to give me an unfair advantage over less experienced users. I do not think we should introduce one historic several new rules. It makes things too complicated. Simplicity of rules is more important. In the case of the bridges I only familiarized myself with the project, when the gate for nominations was closing, and I had no time for shooting a fresh bridge pic, but recalled the "archive" (and I do not use Lightroom :-) ). --Slaunger (talk) 19:19, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I just want to make a point about timing. It is midwinter where I live now (and pretty grim outside) so not everybody has the same opportunities every month of the year. Similarly, our festivals and other outdoor events tend to be in our warmer months so that could rule me and my southern hemisphere counterparts out for some themes. HelenOnline 08:03, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

May winners

Politics and politicians: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Title	Inauguration of EYE2014 at European Parliament, Strasbourg, 9 Mai 2014.	Roland Ries, mayor of Strasbourg, (5 April 2014)	United Nations Security Council on the United Nations Headquarters in New York City
Author	Ctruongngoc	Ctruongngoc	Neptuul
Score	25	17	15

Flowers and insects: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	2
image
Title	Hummingbird hawk-moth (Macroglossum stellatarum) in flight near lavender	Bee on whitehorn - Biene auf Weißdorn-Blüte	Ceriagrion coromandelianum on Catharanthus roseus flower bud
Author	Thorsten Denhard	Lesekreis	Joydeep
Score	21	18	18

Bridges: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Title	Ponte della Maddalena (Borgo a Mozzano, Tuscany, Italy)	The old stone arch bridge at Leshan, China	Columbus and Greenville Railway bridge over Yazoo River, Leflore County, Mississippi.
Author	Myrabella	Cccefalon	Magnolia677
Score	19	18	17

Congratulations to Ctruongngoc, Neptuul, Thorsten Denhard, Lesekreis, Joydeep, Myrabella, Cccefalon and Magnolia677. -- Colin (talk) 21:37, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Congratulations to the winners and to you - that was a new record time! ;-> Thanks for the results, Colin. --Anna reg (talk) 22:11, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

A big thank you to the voters and the organizers! I am really pleased to have won this competitive thematic challenge. --Myrabella (talk) 06:56, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Congratulations to all the winners! Thank you Colin for finalising the results and to everybody else who participated and helped make another successful photo challenge. HelenOnline 10:13, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone who voted for my photo. I'm really happy with my second place. There were so many wonderful nominations. Thanks also to the organizing team for the great work. I look forward to the next challenges. ;-) Lesekreis (talk) 11:00, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Commons talk:Photo challenge/themes

I just entered a new theme suggestion proposed at the German talk page into the list at Commons:Photo challenge/themes. As Colin asked, if there is a possibility to add short explanations to the suggestions, I tried to organise Commons talk:Photo challenge/themes in a way that helps the development of new ideas without removing the announcement of next months themes and the often long discussions around that decision from this page. I'd be interested to know if you think the way it is set up now could work - and be useful. --Anna reg (talk) 20:45, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Own work?

Hello, Maybe a concern about somes images uploaded by User:Magnolia677 for the Photo Challenge: are they really freely works by the user? They have no EXIF data and can be seen on Panoramio with an other author name and a "All rights reserved" mention—although in a lower definition. Examples: 1) File:Columbus and Greenville Railway bridge over Yazoo River.jpg -> us.geoview.info and panoramio; 2) File:Cherry pickers in Humbermede.jpg -> panoramio. Nice photos though. I asked Magnolia677 the question. --Myrabella (talk) 07:01, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

I think where this occurs, an OTRS confirmation is usually required. See Commons:OTRS. -- Colin (talk) 08:20, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

The "all rights reserved" setting on these Panoramio photos is now removed. Magnolia677 (talk) 11:33, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Magnolia677, you are allowed to publish photos elsewhere and apply different terms or licence arrangements if you want. I suggest you read the above linked guidance page and see whether contacting OTRS might help avoid any misunderstandings or faulty deletion requests. Remember you might not always be around to answer questions about authorship. -- Colin (talk) 11:57, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Proposal re challenge categories

Every month there are some editors who add the challenge category but do not add their entry to the challenge page and vice versa, creating extra work and sometimes disputes after the deadline. I propose we do away with the challenge category unless there is an easy way to add it after the challenge has closed. HelenOnline 08:14, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Until this is scripted by a bot, there are too many mistakes being made. -- Colin (talk) 11:31, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Everybody please note we are no longer using the categories from August 2014. HelenOnline 12:10, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

August/September organiser

We need a volunteer to choose themes and help organise the August/September challenges. See Commons talk:Photo challenge#Volunteer for information on the role. I'm particularly hoping one theme for August will take advantage of the holiday month for travel/tourist shots at least among our Northern hemisphere contributors -- it is such a busy time for photo taking. We also want to avoid clashing with the Wiki Loves Monuments theme. And my perennial request that at least one theme involves a "challenge" -- to go out to take new pictures rather than just upload old ones. It always was my intention to challenge people (and myself) to take pictures they'd never have though of taking, or that are outside their "comfort zone". I'm a bit late asking this month and we need to choose themes well before the end of month so we can set up the pages and watchlist notice with as many translations as possible. So if I don't get a volunteer within a few days, I may just pick YOU! -- Colin (talk) 11:39, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

• Note: we have Commons:Photo challenge/themes if the volunteer/voluntold wants something to start with. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:31, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Two theme suggestions for August:

• Holidays (time restricted ?)
• Hair

--Anna reg (talk) 12:06, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

It was my intention tonight to find someone new to help choose August's themes and setup pages, since there haven't been any volunteers (though this page might not be on lots of watchlists). However, these two suggestions look absolutely fine and I can't really think of any reason to look further. Looking that the sample pics for Holidays, I see Anna's intention is to focus on the act of going/being on holiday, rather than just pictures one took (of sites and scenery) on holiday. This is a good focus (and one we should make clear) because the random photos of amazing scenery and sites one takes while on holiday can be nominated at QI/FP and aren't related enough to make a theme. We are also free to take pictures of others on holiday or aspects of the holiday/tourism industry (even out of season, if that's your part of the world). So this might indeed work with a time restriction (possibly including July?). Do we have our August themes?

In terms of getting more volunteers for future themes, I may spam the talk pages of anyone who has participated to ask them to place this page on their watchlist. -- Colin (talk) 20:28, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

I thought that my suggestions would perhaps spark a discussion and could help a volunteer when choosing themes. And yes, my focus was on going/being on holiday and not the individual destinations - a theme which should be possible to photograph everywhere, but takes a bit of creativity to depict - which is the main reason why I choose Hair as a second suggestion.

Another theme I could imagine - but perhaps with more time or knowing in advance that it will be one of the themes of the next month is 100 years later (where you need some time to look for pictures you could retake - though I'm not sure if that's possible in every country) - which could be interesting during September, as it's possible to combine it with Wiki Loves Monuments.

By the way, as can be seen following the link 'Page information' on the left, this page is on 79 watchlists. But perhaps discussions are especially slow in summer as many people spend less time on the internet than they do usually?

--Anna reg (talk) 10:21, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

What I have discovered is that although some themes might be more popular than others, and some themes were clearer than others, it is hard to choose a bad theme. That said, someone can always find a problem or suggest a variant they think is better. Maybe there are enough eyes on this page but people are generally happy for the choosing to be "someone else's problem".

Unless anyone has a clear objection, I'm happy to run with the above two for August. I am around/available at the end of July and start of August, so can set up the pages, unless, Anna, you want to help with that. However, I won't get back from holiday till Sat 30th August so will need someone else to help then. I can still run my program to count the votes and set up the voting pages, but won't be able to plan/setup September's challenges. I may also be busy with WLM in September. -- Colin (talk) 11:59, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Anna reg I like the 100 years later theme for September but would prefer a more flexible time period assuming the "100 years" is meant to be taken literally (which I think would be pretty challenging for some locations). We could specify a minimum period of, say, 20 or 50 years. HelenOnline 12:19, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

See also Commons:Då och Nu (Then and Now) for wording ideas. HelenOnline 09:24, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

For the 150th anniversary of my town I took pics "100 years after" if you need some examples.

I also asked the writers of the weekly RAW and we'll have some lines in the next issue (1st August) to "spam" the challenges. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 15:03, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

@HelenOnline: : Nattr proposed 100 years or older on the German talk page - I just moved the idea to my theme suggestion page and mentioned it now as I was wondering what challenges could work during WLM. Additionally, I think that retaking an old picture is a very time intensive challenge as you have to find a picture to retake before you can even try to make a photos... A minimum how old the 'original' has to be can easily be changed, even if to me twenty years seems to be a very small time difference for such a challenge.

Anna I am not as concerned about the period as the wording, "or older" helps thanks. I know my brain is very literal. I imagined only looking for PD photos taken in 1914. HelenOnline 06:26, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

@Llann Wé²: , thanks for the link - I'll change the samples as soon as I have some time - at the moment all pictures are from Vienna - and the angles and points of view don't correspond very well.

Anna, thanks for fixing spelling in the link (my finger bounced ).

France and some other countries don't have FoP so it could be dificult for some users to retake pics as old post card showed 100 years ago. Worse : we don't upload OPC edited after 1934 (if I recall correctly). In my little town it's easy because nothing did change except cars, clothes, former shops and... colors. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 22:59, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

@Colin: , I'm in Vienna until 3 August, so I can help with setting up the pages - if we want to translate everything before August we should probably start soon (I'll try to find some time tomorrow). --Anna reg (talk) 21:39, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Anna, thanks. I should have some time this weekend too (and need to vote!). I'm assuming this old/new theme is being discussed for September rather than August. If we setup the new theme pages with clear indication they are draft (perhaps change background colour like we do for closed discussions) and placeholders for the voting/results pages, then we can also draft the Watchlist notice and work on language variants. Perhaps we need a sub-page of this one where the next month's watchlist notices can be drafted? -- Colin (talk) 07:07, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes it is for September. Don't forget the template I set up in my sandbox. You are welcome to copy it to a more central location. HelenOnline 07:23, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Okay, the two pages for the August challenges "Hair" and "Holidays" (the latter restricted for July and August 2014) are created and marked with a notice that they are still under construction. They should be checked for ambiguity (I used your description for Holidays, Colin) before they are translated into other languages. To make the translations easier (and to avoid having only part of the text appear), I created two templates (one for restricted and one for non-restricted challenges) - probably not the best solution, but I wasn't able to come up with something better... feel free to improve! ;->
--Anna reg (talk) 00:29, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• Anna, what if we were to use Holidays/Vacations as the title? When I simply read the title "Holidays", I half expected celebrations like Eid ul-fitr to fit. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:29, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

  Of course - if you think it could be ambiguous, it's better to change the title (that's the reason why in this case I need people controlling the English version - and not my German translation ;->). However, as the English title is used in the page name (and therefore part of all links), I'd like to be sure about the best way to put it before changing it - Colin, HelenOnline, what do you think of Holidays/Vacations - and should we just change the English title or move the page? --Anna reg (talk) 11:37, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I think "Vacations" is the US equivalent of "Holidays". Holidays/Vacations is fine. The two main categories seem to be Category:Secular holidays, a subcat of Category:Holidays, and Category:Tourism (redirect from Category:Vacations). I don't think it matters if you move the page or not. HelenOnline 13:59, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I added the en-gb watchlist notice to User:HelenOnline/sandbox/Photo challenge template. I've also run my programs on this month's entries/votes (so far) to find any miscast votes -- that should speed things up come the end of the month. Anna reg, HelenOnline, can we organise some translations of this notice and the two new challenges? -- Colin (talk) 20:44, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

The challenges are already translated into German, French, Hungarian, Swedish and Afrikaans. As the challenge titles are the only thing to change in the watchlist notice, we should be able to do that with the texts and translations already available. --Anna reg (talk) 22:12, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Anna reg, HelenOnline and others: do you think the submission period for Holidays should be extended? A lot of people are away most of August (including myself :-) leaving little or no time to process/submit photos they may have taken during this holiday period. Although August may be a busy time for photographing, it can also be a quiet time due to people being away. We could extend the submission period by a couple of weeks, if a full month is considered too much. For example: the "The challenge will be open for submissions from 1st August to 14th September UTC (extended to allow more time for post-holiday submissions)". If it helps, the Hair challenge could also be extended to keep things aligned and also for similar reasons, that lots of people are away. -- Colin (talk) 07:11, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I really don't mind but would like to keep things as simple as possible so as not to confuse people and cause headaches for the volunteers. I would rather make Holidays/Vacations a two month challenge and leave Hair as is. HelenOnline 08:27, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Does anyone have any complaints about the above suggestion to extend Holidays through to September? I assume we'd extend the "taken" threshold too. -- Colin (talk) 20:08, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

 Done HelenOnline 11:58, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Shouldn't the entry page of Holidays/Vacations be renamed to Commons:Photo challenge/2014 - August-September - Holidays/Vacations? Einstein2 (talk) 18:23, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I have added September thanks. We couldn't add "/Vacations" to the page name as it would have created a subpage (I can't see where we discussed that now sorry). HelenOnline 19:35, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

More people

Hello,

We have a lot of pictures of buildings, landscapes, animals, but comparatively much less of people. So I would propose for the following months, challenges on

• Portraits of men, women, children, old people, teenagers, etc.
• Pictures of professionel during their duty.
• Pictures of clothing, fashion, etc.
• Portraits of families, etc.

Regards, Yann (talk) 11:17, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Does that mean that you are volunteering for the next two months (starting with August or September - whatever you'd like better)? ;->

while holidays and hair are not necessarily of people, both do include them - and I would hope for some good pictures of human hair(styles) for the second theme as it was difficult to find good sample pictures... but if you have an idea you like better, feel free to choose some themes! --Anna reg (talk) 14:40, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't think I can commit to a certain date due to professional and personal schedules, but I will do my best for these subjects. Regards, Yann (talk) 17:08, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "I will do my best for these subjects". We are getting quite a few people in the "tools of the trade" theme, but I agree that Commons is poor for quality people photos and the challenge could be used to help address this. -- Colin (talk) 07:33, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Portrait is one of my favoriste theme. Regards, Yann (talk) 09:37, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

In many countries, it is simply not allowed to take pictures of people and to publish them due to personality rights. That theme doesn't make sense at all.--Pok890nuy (talk) 08:51, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

@Pok890nuy: Yes, it makes very much sense, but you obviously need the permission of the people. FYI, we already have thousands of such pictures here. Most people I meet here would be happy to have their portrait on Commons. Regards, Yann (talk) 09:04, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't want to get into this here (there have been very longwinded discussions elsewhere on Commons), but please note in some countries, including mine, you do not need permission to take or publish photos of people in a public setting, only to use such photos for advertising purposes. HelenOnline 09:18, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Different places = different photo opportunuties. It's the same with people from the southern hemisphere not being able to take summer pictures in June: Some people will alway have difficulties with some themes. That being said, the theme description should account for that by mentioning Commons:Personality rights and Commons:Photographs of identifiable people and encourage people to use {{Consent}} and {{Personality rights}}. --El Grafo (talk) 09:54, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh, probably best to add Commons:Country specific consent requirements to that list. --El Grafo (talk) 09:58, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Since last month I added Commons:Photographs of identifiable people among other things to the theme description for challenges likely to include people. That link includes links to Commons:Country specific consent requirements and Commons:Personality rights. Many people seem to not really read the rules anyway, and making them longer will only add to that problem. HelenOnline 10:45, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Agree with the point that people don't read the instructions anyway. If a theme has particular issues (likely to photograph toys, say) then it may be worth a reminder, but ultimately people are responsible for their own photo taking and uploading. -- Colin (talk) 12:39, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

• One more interesting theme would be Religious ceremonies or Worshiping. Available all over the world in all seasons. I think we don't have that many pictures of this theme... Yann (talk) 09:27, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

More ideas

• waste (waste separation, waste recycling, pollution)
• temperatur (hot, cold, impact)
• water (lot of possible subjects)
• electronic devices
• wheels (cars, bikes, whatever with wheels)
• screenshots (from free software), difficult but there are a lot of needs I guess
• objects I use/need at home
• fitment
• streets
• impact of physics

--Slick (talk) 13:18, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

• Water fell under "Four elements" a few months ago, and "screenshots" isn't quite a photographic challenge (the most educational screenshots can just be taken with the PrtSc key or software), but I like the others. "Streets" might be a fun one, especially for motion in the streets. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crisco 1492 (talk • contribs) 08:18, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Could we ask the winner of each challenge to choose the next themes : July winners won the choice of September's theme, for example... --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 14:39, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

June winners

Time for sports: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Title	Long jump, Paris Athletics Paralympic Meeting	"I believe I can Fly..." BMX show at Vallet.	Quiver of an archer during a meeting
Author	Pyb	Llann Wé²	Myrabella
Score	20	19	12

Wiki Loves Pride 2014: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Title	EuroPride 2010 in Warsaw, Poland.	EuroPride 2010 in Warsaw, Poland.	Deutsch: Life Ball 2014: Jean Paul Gaultier, Conchita Wurst und Gery Keszler English: Life Ball 2014: Jean Paul Gaultier, Conchita Wurst and Gery Keszler
Author	Nikodem Nijaki	Nikodem Nijaki	Tsui
Score	13	12	9

Ruins, cemeteries and ghostly places: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Title	Church Of The Holy Rude Churchyard, Stirling, Scotland.	German cemetery in Sighișoara, Romania	Skulls and bones in the Ossuary of Eggenburg, Austria
Author	Kadellar	Myrabella	Linie29
Score	22	16	14

Congratulations to Pyb, Llann Wé², Myrabella, Nikodem Nijaki, Tsui, Kadellar and Linie29. -- Colin (talk) 18:48, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I thank everyone who voted for my photo and made me have this second place. Thanks a lot !!! --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 21:25, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

September...

Hi there.

Colin asked me for the next themes...

I like the ideas of :

• small and large : I see Laurel and Hardy everywhere! Could be declined in fat and thin, long and short...
• lights on the move : crossing cars at night, fireworks...

--Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 05:11, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

IMHO lights on the move is a better theme for "dark" months like Dec/Jan., include X-mas lights (in move) and new year fireworks --Slick (talk) 08:30, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. Such photos are enhanced if taken during the Blue hour which for me currently starts at 20:30 but would be 16:15 in December. The former is a much more convenient time to be out mid-week whereas most people are in work/college at the earlier time. We had a coloured light theme over Christmas last year. The time for good firework displays really varies from country to country, and few of us are sober enough round New Year to be taking photos at midnight. In addition to traffic light trails, one can try Light painting. And we have several featured pictures of undergound trains light trails, which could be taken any time. So plenty opportunity for a challenge to take photos you've never tried before. -- Colin (talk) 09:40, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Llann Wé² have you settled on the themes for next month? Could you, HelenOnline, Anna reg and others work on preparing the new theme entry pages/translations and a watchlist notice. I'll be back from holiday at the weekend so should have some time then. -- Colin (talk) 10:01, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Colin, I was waiting for some opinions and differents advices but no one said he was not OK... So, if nobody says nothing, everybody's OK for what I choose. Just let me know if we run one or two themes. If only one it'll be Lights on the move (long time exposure). --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 12:48, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Don't mind one or two. -- Colin (talk) 12:58, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The first one is here. I'll add the second tonight. No time left... --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 14:55, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The second one is there. If some one could fix my translation errors (French is my language so take the French version as the best one and the English version shouldn' be too bad) it'll be kind of you. Thank you .

Dear Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} , I have changed some of your examples. I really hope that's okay for you! Lesekreis (talk) 08:24, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

@ Lesekreis : I agree for some of your example pics ( Thank you.) but not for all. I think Skyscrapers and russian matroshkas are misleading and as said here we may not mislead challengers with unmatching examples. Why did you removed Poland syndrome? It's a disease and an example for physical difference, don't forget we have an educational goal too. I've mixed your entries and mine. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 15:19, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Lie 2 me ..., nevertheless - I think the photo is sexist and completely unsuitable as an example of the challenge. Educational goal or not, here it is not about medical or scientific posts, right? Many better example photos are yet available. What is the opinion of others? Lesekreis (talk) 17:20, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

What ? No sientific post ? Everything could be good for this topic even medical things. What do you consider as sexist ? Do you think female obesity is a sexist topic ? Female breast cancer too ? There's only 2 pictures of this disease ; is it enough for you ? I don't think so. The goal of challenges is not really making art pictures but to fill categories missing illustrations. Go to male genital category and find a pic where a guy has a litlle ball and a big one to turn over this sexist view of that thing. Let's see what the comunity thinks.

But if you've got some good/better ideas, we'll be please to see you adding your name here . --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 19:18, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Llann Wé² I would strongly prefer if the Poland syndrome image wasn't included in the examples. It isn't really such a hard theme to define (compared to the Holidays one) that we even need any examples. There's a time and place for medical images, particularly ones that have no artistic merit and are of parts of the body we normally expect to be covered. It is the sort of image that will make some people uncomfortable viewing the challenge page, and good editorial practice is do this only when fully justified (which, imo, a photography competition doesn't, as this is just a bit of fun). Additionally, I'm not sure the subject, when consenting to have their image taken for medical illustration, would have been happy also for it to be used to illustrate a photography challenge on "big and small". While I support Commons hosting such images (provided consent is obtained), we always need to be sensitive about using images of people. -- Colin (talk) 10:55, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Llann Wé², is your objection to russian matroshkas because it contains several dolls rather than just a pair (one big, one small)? If so, then I think the challenge text needs to say the "challenge features one contrasting pair of subjects: big and small, fat and skinny, long an short...". Possibly, to further emphasise this, go on to say "Images should be selected and framed to include just two subjects for illustration". -- Colin (talk) 10:55, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Who'll start/close the challenge? I'm not sure to be able to do that ... --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 04:02, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I can open/close. I have a tax filing deadline on 31 Aug so I need to try stay away from Wikis until after then. HelenOnline 06:16, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

@ Helen : thanks a lot . I hope that doesn't bother you. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 15:19, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I will try to find some time to look at the translations tomorrow or on Sunday - holidays do make things more difficult! (and I'm really glad that I've still some time to upload the holiday picture(s) I made - now I only have to worry about hair...) ;->

About your picture - 'not safe for work' (or breaks at work) can be a problem with some pictures that can be found on wikipedia - not sure if they should be used as samples if not necessary to illustrate the topic... (I was a bit unsure about the beach picture for the holiday samples for the same reasotn, but decided that it should be 'safe for work'). Anna reg (talk) 22:00, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Of which pics are you talking about Anna ? Make good use of your holidays . --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 23:30, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

On the "Light on the move" challenge, I think the File:International Space Station star trails - JSC2012E052681.jpg image is redundant as we already have a star trail image (and we don't have any Commons photographer's in space!) I'm surprised there are no images of light painting, which would be really fun for people to try. Welding or other activity that generates sparks is "light on the move" even if the exposure can be fairly short. I think I've found a better fairground image, with more movement. The rocket launch and aircraft image are less easy examples to reproduce, so could be dropped perhaps.

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 

-- Colin (talk) 11:18, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

 Thank you. Colin. I took advice of what you wrote so I've adjusted the definition of the challenge and that's what I've asked some lines above, expecting some fixing. It's not really easy for me to write in a foreign language what I think/want and Google isn't always a good friend...

I removed 2 or 3 pics for "Light on the move" and removed 'Poland syndrome' from "Big and small" even of I think different than you.

Say if something else goes wrong. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 23:36, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I have marked Hair as closed and updated the Submitting, Voting and Previous templates, with the last two template updates hidden pending new voting pages and result calculations which Colin will hopefully do. Anna reg has drafted a new watchlist message here (it is not ready yet, awaiting some translations which have been requested and the new voting pages). HelenOnline 08:13, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll create the pages tonight. I agree it is best to delay the watchlist notice till we have translations so people can see the message in their own language. Llann Wé², would you mind if I added the couple of light painting images above to the examples on the page? Also I think the fairground image above is better (more movement) than the one in the examples. -- Colin (talk) 09:08, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

If you want Colin.

French translation is OK Helen. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 14:20, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

HelenOnline/Anna reg/Llann Wé², the Hair voting page and the new challenge entry pages are ready. If you are happy with the translations, please submit the watchlist notice. -- Colin (talk) 21:17, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Colin. I am just trying to find an online Swedish translator to check my Swedish translation before submitting the new watchlist notice. HelenOnline 07:39, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

 Done HelenOnline 06:49, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Holidays theme - meeting the challenge

I've removed a bunch of entries that just looked like photos people took while on holiday or perhaps photos that evoked thoughts of holiday (e.g. sandy beach) but weren't in themselves about the theme of going or being on holiday. Please could someone double-check my edit for mistakes and can everyone help review entries for meeting the theme. I started notifying nominators to ask them to remove, but this proved very time consuming on my netbook (I'm on holiday with slowish internet). So I didn't have time for that and just removed them. Thanks. -- Colin (talk) 09:24, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Colin, it is not easy being the policeman. It's a tough call, but really nobody here has the time or energy to plead with individual editors who have ignored the challenge description. It would be really unfair to those who have tried to meet the challenge if beautiful images of scenery win, and leaving them in just seems to encourage others to do the same. HelenOnline 10:30, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I wish I'd removed some of the bad ones earlier as they are misleading. I haven't yet checked the "when taken" aspect of the theme, so this still needs doing. I may have more time tonight or tomorrow, but it would be great if other people watchlisting this page, who participate in the challenges, help as a community to keep on top of this job. It is too much for one or two people, especially at holiday time. Thanks. -- Colin (talk) 11:44, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I've checked the EXIF data of the files entered in the "Holiday" challenge so far: They have all been taken during July/August 2014. File:Water butterfly.JPG is a bit strange though: It doesn't have EXIF data, was uploaded on 23:34, 21 August 2014, but the date field if the description says 22 August 2014, 02:31:13. Probably a time zone problem/user error rather than manipulation, so I didn't remove it. --El Grafo (talk) 12:18, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Please see the complaints on my talk page about removing entries. I'd appreciate opinions confirming or rejecting the removal of entries I believed don't meet the theme. For the sake of clarity, I request that in future the "theme organiser" has the final say on which entries meet the criteria, though I don't think the task of policing this should fall on just one person's shoulders. I also don't think it is wise to leave incorrect submissions for the voters to reject -- because such entries will only mislead others and many voters will just vote for great images without considering the theme too much. -- Colin (talk) 19:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with the removal of File:Hats in Spain.jpg, because to me it seems completely analogous to File:Flip flops - just pick one up.jpg. Especially the hats in the foreground seem like the sort that ladies would wear on the beach, and flip flops are something one wears on the beach, so what's the difference? I agree the fedoras in the background don't have much to do with "vacation", so perhaps it would have been a stronger entry if it had been cropped. But the theme seems very subjective to me. --Ppelleti (talk) 08:02, 29 August 2014 (UTC)_Thanks for your comment, I add that Spain is not a big beach and in this place the only waves I know are heat waves. --Doalex (talk) 10:44, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes there is a subjective aspect to the theme, but it also is one where people read "Holidays" and think they can upload photos they took on holiday (most of the ones removed). Llann commented on my talk page that the flip flops could confuse (and also, many people don't associate them with holiday wear as they are normal for them). Put the hats back then. I'm completely fine about discussing entries here and fixing things as a result. I'm travelling now so don't have time to fix up the submission page -- could someone do this thanks. -- Colin (talk) 08:19, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I have restored the hats entry, assuming that is what was meant by fixing up the submission page. @Doalex: FYI. HelenOnline 11:33, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I am happy for the volunteer theme organiser to have the subjective final say on which entries meet the criteria. HelenOnline 11:33, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I also removed the 3 examples discussed on Colin's talk page in case that was what was meant. HelenOnline 11:53, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Copied from Colin's talkpage:

Hi! I agree with Colin about interpretation of the act of being on holidays BUT I think three of the exapmle pictures can mislead the challengers :

• File:Stuffed tiger wearing a sombrero.jpg : because many people can go to the beach with their chils and one of his cuddy toy on a shinny weekend...
• File:Flip flops - just pick one up.jpg : because I wear flip-flap all year long and it's not a proof of being on holidays...
• File:Luna Park Melbourne scenic railway.jpg : having fun fairies is not really an holiday activity (I'm going @ Astérix Parc in 2 weeks and I won't be on holidays but because I have a coupon for this date)...

A cat lying in a hammock with a coktail could be an humoristic way to describe the act of being on holiday but a cat sleeping on a stair is a thing I can see thousand times a day.

IMHO many other submissions (16/32) don't match with the topic.

--Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 02:27, 29 August 2014 (UTC) (--Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 14:41, 29 August 2014 (UTC))

 Thank you., Helen. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 15:21, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

• I think you may be defining "holidays" a bit too strictly if you're going to exclude roller coasters. Very few people ride them in any other time except leisure time, and as such (for me), a roller coaster ride is likely to be part of a holiday (day off/leisure day out). The same with fishing (be it open water or farm), or an Alaskan cruise, or snowskiing, or backpacking in the wood. Sure, there are professionals who do these things, but for most people it is part of a holiday experience. It's not all sun, sand, and surf ;) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:18, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

File:Vue du Désert de Pierre Ronde.jpg

You deleted this file as you think it only represents a particular destination. This is false. I entered the contest with this pic as it generally represents the gorgeous views you can see when hiking in high mountains. Please re-introduce it. Additionally, I would welcome not just to remove a questioned entry and request its creator to discuss the issue afterwards. --Jacek79 (talk) 14:22, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

The theme specifically excludes scenery. -- Colin (talk) 19:39, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Where is it told that scenery is not allowed? Your original argument was that my pic depicted a particular destination, which in the context of the challenge is not true. --Jacek79_{over the silent waters} 20:53, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

If you had a picture of people enjoying/observing the scenery, it would be okay - a picture of only the scenery is a picture of a location - exactly what we want to avoid in that challenge. (even if it's a nice picture) --Anna reg (talk) 21:17, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposal

Nominations not deemed compliant to the scope of a competition is currently being removed by the maintainers of the competition based on an assumption, that if left in, it is likely that voters may vote for 'wow' images, which are not really in scope, thus demotivating contributions from those who have actually done an effort to submit images compliant with the scope.

This removal appears to me to be a rather unpleasant job, which is not very rewarding. What you get in return is complaints from contributors, who feel the removal is done based on a single persons interpretation of what the scope of the competition is, and there is a certain level of ambiguity in this decision process as the discussion above demonstrates.

How about trying in one of the coming up competitions to simply leave in all nominations, and let the voters decide if each individual nomination fits the theme from the votes?

Maybe the voters actually do consider adequately what the theme is in the vote!?!

If so, a lot of tedious policing can be avoided and a lot of abrasion from upset nominators, who feel that removing their ontribution to the competition is unfair. If we let the voters speak, and this actually works, there will be more self-regulation without complaints. If you see you do not get any or only a few votes, you know you have to improve somehow. Either by complying more with the scope of the competition or by submitting better photos.

Personally, I also prefer to be a bit more open-minded with the interpretation of what is in scope or what is intended with a specific competition. I think it is nice to see some imagination of what is seen as being in scope, and get the aha, I had not thought about that feeling when seeing a nominated photo.

If it turns out that not policing the nominations leads to "wrong" pictures winning, we can just return to the tedious policing scheme. --Slaunger (talk) 09:24, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

I think this "Holidays" theme has been particularly problematic and not typical. The theme name is open to holiday snapshots and it is only when one looks at the full description that the restriction Helen Anna intended (and I picked up on and agreed with) was "my focus was on going/being on holiday and not the individual destinations". I think a competition where people really did submit their holiday snaps while others tried to meet the actual challenge would be extremely unfair. I don't share Slaunger's optimism in the crowd (which in my experience is far from wise) -- considering that "not reading the instructions" is the cause of this issue, then "not reading the instructions" will apply also to voters. While I agree that with some themes it is nice to see what interpretations people have come up with, this one has been for me "groan" and lack of imaginations rather than "aha" and enlightenment. The one other theme that had a number of bad entries was "textures". I don't know if it was a language issue but lots of people confused that with patterns (without a raised surface being visible or even present). The lesson I feel is that we need to make sure the challenge theme name is completely sufficient to describe the topic or else any restrictions placed in-text are utterly unambiguous (such as has been done for big-and-small). We have to accept that contributors and voters will not read the instructions. It might be nice to think that removing the "policing" from the challenge will stop complaints, but I don't think it will -- those who have met the theme will complain and if the winner is unjust then people will not bother with it. People also follow examples, and I accept the blame for not removing the misleading entries to this challenge early enough -- doing that might have prevented some. -- Colin (talk)

I agree that the self regulation probably won't work - but I also agree with Crisco 1492 that you are taking a very strict interpretation of the 'holiday' theme (that necessitated the removal of sample pictures some weeks into the challenge). Making pictures of stuffed animals on the beach/in front of a sight or riding a roller coaster is something most people associate with holidays - even though it doesn't have to be on a holiday - but what picture really has to be taken on a holiday? In my opinion an airplane can be at least as casual as a stuffed animal...

Still - a big thank you to those trying to coordinate the challenges! And I'm really glad that I only have to upload my hair entry(ies) in the next two hours (and vote for the July challenges), while I don't have to hurry with the holiday pictures, too! Extending the deadline was a great idea... ;->

--Anna reg (talk) 21:42, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Challenges awards...

Hi.

I was asking myself if the winners of each challenge could win the pleasure of choosing the next theme. Example: the first place winner of each August challenge could have the choice of one of October theme... So they'll have an award  ! --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 12:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

July winners

Primary colors in manmade objects: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	2
image
Title	Tanks for rainwater harvesting, Marennes, France	Detail of an old oyster farmers' hut, Le Château-d'Oléron, France	A woman in red is negotiating the catch of the day in blue and yellow baskets (Sandakan, Sabah)
Author	JLPC	Myrabella	Cccefalon
Score	42	12	12

Tools of the trade: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Title	Naxi people carrying their typical baskets in Yunnan Province, China	Plane with wood shavings and carpenter's pencil	Fish-hook, Sri Lanka
Author	Cccefalon	Cccefalon	AntanO
Score	34	16	11

Congratulations to JLPC, Myrabella, Cccefalon and AntanO. -- Colin (talk) 21:00, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Link on main page

Hello All! I have proposed that Photo challenge's link should be added on main page. The discussion is at Talk:Main_Page#Photo_challenge_link_on_main_page. Please participate there. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 12:30, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Multiple nominations

I am presuming that multiple nominations within a particular challenge are allowed. Apparently we have had same user winning more than one awards too. But the "Participation" section in "Formal things" is not that clear. In 3rd point it does have a (s) after picture in "Take picture(s) for the challenge(s)". But reading first point it might mean that the plurality is because participation in multiple challenges is allowed. It's not really clear that multiple nominations within one challenge is allowed. Can it be amended for better clarity? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 11:29, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

@Dharmadhyaksha: Below that list there's already the sentence “There is no limit on the number of submissions per user, but please choose from among your best and most varied images.” I think no limit is pretty clear? --El Grafo (talk) 11:59, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Volunteer needed for October

We need a volunteer to get the ball rolling for October. One week is not a lot of time to plan new challenges. HelenOnline 17:48, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry I've been so busy IRL and with WLM and I so wanted to take photos for the Light on the Move challenge. I suspect I'm not the only one as both September challenges don't really have enough pictures to make a good competition [no reflection on the current entries]. Perhaps we should close the Holiday one and extend the other two. -- Colin (talk) 18:56, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Colin, Helen. First entries came late in the month. May be because no one has this kind of pic in their HDD and may find some something to shot. Not easy topics... --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 19:16, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

And really a lot of challenges etc. at the moment - I still haven't uploaded the holiday-picture I took... I'm all for extending! (Not the holiday one - I'll manage to upload the picture sometime this week! ;->) --Anna reg (talk) 21:48, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Am pro for running multiple topics for more than a month duration. I would suggest we increase the topics too. How about simultaneously having 5 topics on any given day. Some topics would focus on variety themes which would be given longer duration (like holidays, proverbs, etc.) as these entries might need to be created and those moments are rare to find. Some simpler topics might run side by side which are easy to capture (like primary colours, surface textures, etc.) §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 05:33, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Extra topics means extra work and we don't have a large pool of volunteers helping out. HelenOnline 06:19, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Not only extra admin work but also much more work for reviewers. When you have a topic with 100 photos, it takes a long time to do a proper review (i.e. not just looking at the thumbnails). -- Colin (talk) 06:25, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I have made a few changes to reflect the extended challenge periods where necessary and drafted a new watchlist notice for October. HelenOnline 13:08, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello, sorry to add an other problem: what about Photo challenge/2014 - August - Hair, we have 2 pages at this moment Commons:Photo challenge/2014 - August - Hair and Commons:Photo challenge/2014 - August - Hair/Voting and these pages are not included here in the table of contents ? You are very busy, I I've noted it, I suggest for the next year 2015 to do a stop in september during the Wiki Loves Monuments. Regards and thank you for your work.--Doalex (talk) 08:43, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

It's not that bad if they are not linked for a few days - and they will be linked again as soon as Colin manages to count the votes and the Photo challenge-Winner template is created. (And at the moment it's perhaps even an advantage if those two pages can't easily be reached, as we don't want any changes - I just had to set some votes from october 1 back) ;->

Best wishes, --Anna reg (talk) 09:57, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Doalex I'm not sure I understand your comment. Neither of the Hair pages should be included in the table of contents now as the challenge has closed for submissions (August) and voting (September). When Colin has finished preparing the results the winners will be included however. There is always going to be a gap at month end between closing time and posting results as closing time happens in the middle of the night and it requires some manual work when we wake up, especially if there are irregularities in voting to sort out like this month. HelenOnline 10:11, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

HelenOnline You are right it's too early to see the changes, sorry. --Doalex (talk) 15:23, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

August winners

Hair: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Title	Hair caught on the barbed wire	Headdress, Cosplayer at Leipzig book fair 2014	Brown hair, partly in a knot
Author	Nikodem Nijaki	Lesekreis	Anna reg
Score	39	36	34

Congratulations to Nikodem Nijaki, Lesekreis and Anna reg. -- Colin (talk) 18:25, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

+1. Great photos. I think it is interesting to note, that the first four places are the same nomatter which of the several different score systems are used. Speaking of which, I was thinking if it could be in any way useful if we multiplied all points by ten, and then allowed the ♥ to give one point as a kind of symbolic encouragement (it would probably not change any results). Not a good idea though if the bookkeeping burden of finding the scores becomes overly large, just a thought. -- Slaunger (talk) 18:37, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Congratulations to all the winners! HelenOnline 20:17, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Congrats to all (winners and other).

There's a problem with the title of the table : should be Hair but it's Tools of the trade. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 20:26, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. -- Colin (talk) 21:02, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for counting the votes! and I'm really happy about the result! ;->
@Slaunger: : I could also imagine the hearts being worth something (I think 5 hearts could equals 1 star), if that's easily done. Anna reg (talk) 23:14, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Moving pictures

Are gifs, videos or other formats of moving pictures also allowed in this challenge? There are some entries in the Commons:Photo challenge/2014 - September-October - Light on the move. I think they should be allowed and encouraged too; but in their own different category not with still photographs. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 06:27, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

I think if moving images are allowed then that should have been stated at the start of the challenge, to make things fair for all participants. I know a moving image can explain things that a still image cannot, but it is still another form of media with its own qualities. And personally, I find animated GIFs to be totally irritating and believe have no place in any quality educational publication -- we have modern video formats now. Leave the GIFs for social media please. -- Colin (talk) 09:55, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi. I agree with Colin and that's why last night I asked Glogger to remove his GIFs from the challenge. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 12:38, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

If GIFs have no place in any quality educational publication (like Wikipedia) and belong only in social networking, what should we be using in Wikipedia to express concepts like lights-in-motion? Should these image be deleted from Wikimedia or replaced with something in a "modern video format"?

• 
  Eye_dilate.gif
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  Cycloid_f.gif
• 
  Speedball_super-solo.gif
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  Speedball_match_simple.gif
• 
  Speedball_match_double.gif

I think there should be a place for GIF images. It is not really a movie format, but is useful in images where most of the content is static, but some small part of it moves, such as lights in motion, or the pupil of an eye in motion while the rest remains static.

I actually do see a lot of GIF pictures in Wikipedia, such as the main first (lede) image in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycloid

How can that be replaced by "modern video formats" (e.g. so they play when the page is viewed, without requirements of an external program)?

I'd agree that in print media there's no capacity for this, but Wikipedia should encourage images that explain concepts, such as something moving, such as lights moving.

Should we also delete these from Wikipedia: The last 3 images in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed-ball

• 
  Astar_progress_animation.gif
• 
  A*_Search_Example_on_North_American_Freight_Train_Network.gif

Glogger (talk) 05:37, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

GIFs do have a good place of importance in illustrating concepts. I value them more than video formats as they are compact and good for slow internet speeds and also don't require unnecessary different varieties of video players. My objection was just to not allow them in this challenge. I would, in fact, suggest a different challenge should exist for motion pictures that would include gifs and other video formats too. Also i suppose a different challenge should be started for illustrations. Maybe dedicate 1 month for these two categories? §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 06:55, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I changed your links to galleries so you don't have to follow the link to see what you're talking about - hope that's okay. And please note that the removal of gifs from the challenge has nothing to do with their place in commons (which is as far as I know Colin's personal opinion) - after all, the majority of the animated featured pictures are gifs - but mostly of drawings and not of photos (and I have to admit that I don't think the speedbal gifs illustrate the topic very well, as its difficult to see anything... ;->).

We already had a discussion if we should allow videos alongside photos to compete, but it was decided that that's too difficult to compare...

Best wishes, Anna reg (talk) 07:14, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

The place to discuss the role of GIFs in an encyclopaedia is really in the guidelines for that encyclopaedia. The English Wikipedia, Manual of Style, says most animated GIFs should be converted to video. There is no technical reason why video can't play in-place or even play automatically, should someone wish that. Currently Wikipedia video require the user to click on the |> button and the animation appears in a larger frame. But that's just how Wikipedia does it and not really Commons' concern. I'm old enough to remember when GIFs were the only form of animation, but once proper video and controllable animation such as Flash appeared, GIFs disappeared. They have recently reappeared due to an internet fad on social media. They'll go again once better tech is adopted and universally available. But regardless of whether the images are irritating animated GIFs or high quality video, this is a photo challenge and there isn't yet a consensus to allow video. I don't have a problem with whoever setting the next challenges deciding to include video or even setting a challenge only for moving pictures, but it should be done up-front. -- Colin (talk) 10:52, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Captions...

Hi all (even if I feel alone...).

I saw many captions that are too long and hide the pic while the mouse is on them (so I cut some). Can we ask users not to write a caption ? Or change the gallery mode ?

--Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 20:15, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm now free of any WLM activity so will try to catch up over the next few days. I like captions, but agree they need to be brief. -- Colin (talk) 20:42, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

That's OK Colin I can deal alone for now but I was asking myself where is everybody. I guess being WLM's admin takes time. I still have 50 pics to sort but too late for WLM... --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 21:42, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

November themes

Berthold Werner just asked on the German talkpage where the next challenge themes can be found - reminding me that it's time to ask if there were already some decisions made? Llann Wé², do you have some more themes for us? Or should we look for a new volunteer? Anna reg (talk) 11:52, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi. I don't know, I didn't think at that at all... I don't know if I'll have time : for november I've two public Wikiconferences to prepare and 'workshops' for new contributors to set up and I'll try to photocover a 1-week exhibition about WW2 (with veterans, mayors, deputies, councilers...) and so the afterwork + other IRL things.

I've suggested to propose previous winners to choose the next theme as an award but I don't remember any reply about that... Looking at some pics I've made I was saying to myself that Smoke could be a good exercice but may be hard for someone, smoke is harder than light to control but smoke can catch light, can stay in hair, can take weird forms...

You see... --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 20:35, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Smoke sounds like an interesting challenge. I also thought about leaves (not necessarily plural). It is autumn for many of us just now, which is an interesting time for leaves, but of course, there are leaves always in some form in all seasons and locations. -- Colin (talk) 21:15, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

As we only have two days left to ask for the translations, I think we should fix the themes for November. Themes suggested this month were Bad weather and Mother Nature strikes back by El Grafo, Leaves by Colin and Smoke by Llann Wé² (Colin, Llann, please change the pictures if what I chose isn't what you were thinking of). Anna reg (talk) 10:19, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Since Smoke and Bad weather seem to have a strong overlap in the fog & clouds department (we even both chose this file as an example), I'd suggest not running them at the same time ;-) Might be a good idea to have both an indoor and an outdoor challenge? I like the Household items in use idea … --El Grafo (talk) 10:37, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

It is so hard to choose between them as always. I like the "Bad weather" ideal as fully explained by El Grafo -- but we may need more time to work on that one in all languages, as the explanation is rather complex and I don't want another one with lots of hassle over invalid nominations. Another option is to simplify this to one of "raining", "windy", "foggy", which could all be different themes. I don't think "smoke" includes steam, clouds or fog -- those are really quite different things and best not confused. Smoke requires a fire/flame and contains solid particles. So I'd suggest changing the images for those themes to make clearer.

If I can push the "Leaves" one a little -- we have one month of autumn/spring left which are both good seasons for showing leaves that are dead or that are full of life. One can even collect the leaves and photograph them indoors. Does anyone have objections to that?

All that we need is for someone to make a decision, and available next month to supervise the nominations. If Llann Wé² is busy then I'm happy to choose. I'll wait till this evening and if nobody else volunteers, I'll do it myself! You have till then to persuade me about one of the other themes, otherwise I'll just pick one. They really are all viable themes.... -- Colin (talk) 11:42, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

To be honest, I would prefer not using the bad weather theme for now over simplifying it: The idea behind this was to challenge people to try something new by going out shooting on a day they'd usually rather spend indoors post-processing, uploading, or tea-drinking. I fear that the spirit of it would be lost if it was simplified. There's plenty of bad weather coming up in the next months in most parts of the world, so no need to rush this.

I also think this may be a good time for the leaves theme (I guess spring is coming in the southern half?). Also like the Smoke if reduced to actual smoke as opposed to water vapor (fog, clouds & steam). w:Smog would be a borderline case. --El Grafo (talk) 14:32, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

I didn't say we may include "steam", "clouds", ect in "Smoke" but people, without further detail, should think it's a kind of and add pics in that way.

IMAO "Smoke" and "Leave(s)" sound good for South and North regardless weather.

Yes Colin : heavy duty on November. I can take a look sometimes but won't be able to follow daily. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 17:02, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Ok. Let's go for Smoke, defined by Wikipedia as: "a collection of airborne solid and liquid particulates and gases emitted when a material undergoes combustion or pyrolysis, together with the quantity of air that is entrained or otherwise mixed into the mass.". And Leaves (plural or singular). Since Commons has no shortage of leaf photographs already, lets restrict that one to photographs taken this season: September-November 2014 (unless you think we should just restrict to November). -- Colin (talk) 20:38, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Please check if that's what you were thinking of: Smoke and Leaves. I'll ask for help in translating the descriptions this evening. Anna reg (talk) 09:31, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Anna reg, the restriction for Leaves said "September or November", which misses out October! I simplified this to "since September 2014" which I hope is clear. Can you change the other languages. Also, I'd like the following added to the submission rules for both challenges:

Please do not nominate lots of similar photos; instead choose just your best and most varied images.

We say something similar in the overall photo challenge guidelines, but I guess nobody reads that. Thanks, Colin (talk) 11:03, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Anna reg, Llann Wé², HelenOnline, I've set up the voting pages. I think we can launch the watchlist notice now? Is there one ready? I've got to go now but will look back later tonight. Results for the Holiday challenge will come once a couple of users fix their votes -- don't revert Jarekt ‎and Hubertl. -- Colin (talk) 18:08, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Colin, I have requested a new watchlist notice minus the Hebrew translation which has not been checked/completed yet (I tried doing it myself without the wikilinks but think it best to wait for an expert before posting). HelenOnline 19:10, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

{done}}. I've checked the French version : it's OK. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 21:15, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

August-September - Holidays - Winners

Holidays/Vacations: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Title	German couple driving with a red Porsche-Diesel Junior on the Silvretta Hochalpenstraße, a popular holiday destination in Vorarlberg, Austria.	Cliff diving near the big cave at La Jolla Cove	Beach in Ksamil, Albania
Author	Stefan2901	Jarekt	Pudelek
Score	46	32	22

Congratulations to Stefan2901, User:Jarekt and User:Pudelek. -- Colin (talk) 12:35, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Wow, all my three favorites have won … congratulations! --El Grafo (talk) 13:47, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

New look for PC Main page...

Hi.

I've started a new version of the main page to (try) to make it more attractive. I didn't made it for translation yet, only in en and fr version (+ de in English). Links are not fixed if we rename or move some or create other header templates.

Please, don't add or remove things, feedback should be better on talkpage,  Thank you..

--Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 18:35, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps we should have a "Photo Challenge Page" challenge. :-) -- Colin (talk) 19:14, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Sounds great --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 19:45, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Llann Wé², nice, thank you for your initiative, I had that in mind, but I was blocked so I couldn't do, the first step I'm trying to change the award template: User:Rodrigo.Argenton/test, I start discussion here to more people be reached. What dou you think? Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton (talk) 17:51, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Contestation...

Hi.

I left a message on JanManu talkpage explaining that I thought his picture is out of topic (Big and small) but JanManu said it shows big and small buildings from a plane. Now the challenge is open for vote. Can someone give opinion about?

 Thank you.. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 23:10, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Leaves?

hello, in the current challenge have been submitted photos showing not only leaves. I see houses, trees, wooden slats, mushrooms, a man with a leaf blower ... Is that okay? The sample images look at least different :-) Or is the question too fussy? Greetings Lesekreis (talk) 10:36, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I do check the dates but I really don't like deciding if the theme interpretation is okay or not - but I'll put some images that are probably borderline or not okay here and ask you to help me decide where we should draw the line... please add others you think I missed and comment!

#	Image	Focus	Comments	Decision
1		leaves & mushroom	okay -Anna reg (talk)
2		leaves & worker	okay? -Anna reg (talk)
3		leaves & trunk	okay? -Anna reg (talk)
4		plants with leaves	? -Anna reg (talk)
5		lake with plants	not okay? -Anna reg (talk)
6		park with plants	not okay? -Anna reg (talk)
7		leaves ?	? -Anna reg (talk)
8		house with leaves	? -Anna reg (talk)
9		leaves & planks	okay? -Anna reg (talk)
10		cemetery with leaves & trees	okay?? -Anna reg (talk)

I hope the table is understandable (and the place to comment in the wiki-code easy enough to find). Colin, as the one who proposed the challenge, I'd like to hear your thoughts, too... Anna reg (talk) 11:15, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

As long as there are leaves in the picture, I would leave it in (no pun intended! ). Someone using a leaf blower and autumn colours are still about leaves, and it gives us some variety. We haven't excluded any types of pictures in the challenge description like we did in the Holidays challenge. I personally will not vote for a picture if the theme is not well represented in it. HelenOnline 11:52, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

• Agree with HelenOnline, I wouldn't reject anyone. Alvesgaspar (talk) 14:02, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
• I think leaves have to be the subject. If the scene is so wide that individual leaves are not readily detailed, then perhaps the colour of the foliage is still relevant (such as autumn). What I wouldn't want is just any old picture of the countryside or garden, or a picture of something else that happened to have leaves in the background. The problem I have with leaving things until voting is that (a) I suspect not every voter bothers to read the theme description and may assume the image's presence in the list means it qualifies (b) it sets an example that others follow -- so the quality of the theme deteriorates. Let's continue to monitor things. -- Colin (talk) 15:56, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

On some pics I don't see leaves (as sample images show) but trees with their leaves and IMO it isn't the real topic. Will we have entire forests sawn from a plane? --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 17:40, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

• I thought leaves have to be prime subject and not just be-there to be eligible. I wouldn't count the 1st image as it is of mushrooms and not leaves. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 17:37, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

What ??? Removed pic is back ?!...

Hi. I'm angry !

As said on the talk page of the uploader of this picture it wasn't in the topic so I removed it. Who and why this picture is back in the challenge ??? I don't agree with this decision !!! I said : no comparative size on it.

It's the same thing about the previous talk about seeing a full forest in a topic about leaves. I don't have any decision to take because I didn't choose the "Leaves" theme, so I don't say nothing else.

But about my first décision and that someone overpasssed it, I do't agree. I remove this entry of the voting page. Don't ask me if you overpass my opinion as theme chooser. I never overpassed your decisions so don't do that in my back. Thanks.

--Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 19:09, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Are you sure you actually removed it (before this time)? HelenOnline 06:44, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

I was really sure I've removed it during the challenge. I put it back but still think it's out of topic. Sorry I'm too tired... --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 13:23, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

New style

Rodrigo.Argenton has added survival times a new design. I reverted it because the translation tagging is broken and i have no time to fix the translation makeup (it take at lest one hour to fix the broken translation tagging). --Steinsplitter (talk) 13:47, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Steinsplitter YOU started this, because you are not capable to help, and not even are capable to say what's wrong. Because, as far I can see, nothing is wrong in the last version. Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton (talk) 13:50, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Ps:For me this "one hour" is bullshit, cause he/she don't say what is wrong...

Please establish consensus for your controversial change and please read the TA documentation on MW. I am not regular here so i let decide further things the photo challenge users. Regards --Steinsplitter (talk) 14:18, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

F this I don't help anymore, a lot of bullshit and no one helping, let this ugly, if a lot of non translatable texts, and this f terrible prolix text...

You are experts at making bad pages, and say that my ones is the problem... Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton (talk) 14:45, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I've had to revert your change, Rodrigo.Argenton. It doesn't work correctly on iOS. Please create a test page and work to remove these problems before seeking consensus to make your new style live on the Photo challenge page. Please see File:Photo_competition_display_problem_on_iOS.png for an indication of the problems your style creates on iOS 8.1. Nick (talk) 14:49, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Nick, I don't care anymore.

I created a test page:User:Rodrigo.Argenton/test 2, I asked for help: Commons:Translators' noticeboard#Mark for translation, and no one had helped me. I read all the s, and then a applied a whole new code, exactly like the documentation; he simply reverted saying "again" as if the code was the old one...

Until now, no one said what's the TA problem...

For your problem, one simply "nomobile" would solve that...

But it is easier destroy than build

That's a example for the world of collaborative and free community... Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton (talk) 16:18, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Advent calendar

As it's a year since the Photo challenges started, I was thinking about what to do to thank those who help organise this project... well, here's my idea. Anna reg (talk) 03:50, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

99of9, Anna reg, Colin, Discasto, Dschwen, El Grafo, Ganímedes, HelenOnline, Jean-Frédéric, Jkadavoor, Einstein2, Llann Wé², Myrabella, Okras, Ormazda, WikiPhoenix, The Photographer

December themes

Just realised how we are once again quite close to the end of the month - and so far haven't looked for a volunteer for December. Should we try Llann's idea and ask the winners of October September (voting during October) (Stefan2901 and Nikodem Nijaki) if one of them would like be willing to chose the next themes? I'll try to ask for the new themes earlier in future - though we normally do manage to translate everything in about a day, a bit less pressure would be nice... ;->
--Anna reg (talk) 10:22, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

I like the idea of winners picking the new themes. --El Grafo (talk) 12:54, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh is it that time again. Yes, Anna, please ask them. If they decline, or anyone wants to volunteer for January, then the offer is open to any participant. -- Colin (talk) 15:22, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Just did so. --Anna reg (talk) 16:42, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Just hope the last winners are not gone for a 3-weeks snow holidays (some ski resorts are open since last friday here). --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 21:51, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, we could consider some ideas in the mean time and can always postpone them to January if necessary. That way we can prepare translations, since there aren't many days to go... -- Colin (talk) 08:52, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Probably a good idea - it could even help the two winners to chose. Well, here are some ideas:

• Household items in use would be a nice indoor theme
• When in Rome, do as the Romans do would once again focus on traditions/customs typical for a region => a bit similar to Traditions, which was limited to pictures taken between 01-2014 and 04-2014.
• if Bead weather isn't too similar to Smoke, it could be a possibility
• Christmas colours (I think the green-red-white is not typical for everywhere, I'd therefore be interested in seeing which colours that would be... ;->)

--Anna reg (talk) 11:34, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

I'd vote for the "Household items in use" and "Bad weather" as a good indoor and outdoor challenge for December. The bad weather one is for photos taken during the theme month in miserable weather (no clear sunshine allowed) and shouldn't clash with smoke. I always like the idea of capturing local culture but wonder if "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" will just lead to cliched photos rather than more sensitive snapshots of local culture, people and events. The phrase to me doesn't really describe the theme that well. -- Colin (talk) 13:45, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Any other opinions, Llann Wé², El Grafo, HelenOnline? If possible, I'd like to have a decision this evening - giving us two days to get the translations ready. --Anna reg (talk) 10:38, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

 Support "Household items in use" : everyone has something like that at home and some one to hold it during use BUT we had "Tools of the trade" a few month ago so I think we could add moving to show the work in progress to make the challenge a little bit funnier and to give a little bit more originality to images. For example, I've checked all the cat I didn't see any irons while steaming (if it's called like that) or an electric hand drill where we see wood/metal shavings turning around the drill bit...

 Support "Bad weather" : won't be too hard for north hemi .--Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 11:48, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I think "in use" is sufficient restriction to make this challenge require new content and careful arrangement. "moving" is just too hard / unnecessary for a still photo. For example, steam coming from the iron isn't really a feature of all ironing (it mainly steams into the garment). It doesn't have to be an electrical or moving "household item" -- a toothbrush, pencil, coat hook, etc... -- Colin (talk) 12:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree with that and I'm fine with the selection. Cheers, --El Grafo (talk) 12:27, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

One more thing (but we can work on that until Sunday) - I'd prefer to have a few more sample pictures - can we use some of the examples for Actions verbs? Or should the picture be more focused on the object? Please remove those that don't fit what you have in mind.

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 
• 

Here are the links for the new challenge pages - please check for mistakes!

• Bad weather (Restriction 12-2014)
• Household items in use

--Anna reg (talk) 21:43, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Colin, El Grafo, as the ones to propose those themes, can you please check the descriptions? I copied El Grafo's rather long description from the themes page (not sure if we shouldn't shorten that a bit) and tried to write one for Household items in use. If there are changes we should make, it would be easier to do so before the pages are translated! --Anna reg (talk) 09:00, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

HelenOnline and Anna reg, the voting pages are ready. So we can go with the watchlist notice. I'll work on the winners now. Btw, I am wondering if we should extend the December themes for a week, to allow people time to get back from relatives/holiday after New year. Probably no reason to extend the voting period, though. -- Colin (talk) 22:08, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I'd be all for it, as I will probably be on holiday till 5 January 2015 - which reminds me that we should try to have the themes ready before Christmas as I don't think that there will be many people ready to translate anything around the December 30... ;-> --Anna reg (talk) 22:37, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Well you could always volunteer to choose the January themes, and show us all how efficient you are at picking something in plenty time :-). Btw, there are (as always) a couple of miscast votes, so I'll do the winners tomorrow. -- Colin (talk) 23:00, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

As you chose my two favourites for December, I already have the impression that I chose the themes for four months this year and that's more than enough to last me for the next couple of months, thank you. ;->

I think we should wait if we hear something back from our two September winners (nothing so far) and if not, try to immediately ask the October winners to select some themes until December 20th (deadlines are always a good idea ;->).

By the way, I'm really looking forward to seeing the statistics for the last month - were there more voters than before? --Anna reg (talk) 23:08, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

FYI in case anyone is wondering where I am: our area had power outages over the weekend on Saturday and Sunday afternoon (which will be a regular thing until our national power utility sorts itself out) and an internet outage on Sunday morning. It is also my summer now. HelenOnline 05:45, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I have requested a new watchlist notice. HelenOnline 06:41, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

2014 - September-October - Winners

Big and small: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Title	Large and small tomato	Big moorhen feeds small moorhen	Close up of father (39 years old) holding baby's (nine months old) hand.
Author	F. Riedelio	Baresi franco	Matthias Süßen
Score	21	18	16

Congratulations to F. Riedelio, Baresi franco and Matthias Süßen. -- Colin (talk) 21:35, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Light on the move: Entries • Votes • Scores

Rank	1	2	3
image
Title	Light painting screw	Portrait of 2 people sharing 3D computational lightpainting object	Two X60 commuter train.
Author	KKnoefler247	Glogger	ArildV
Score	23	20	19

Congratulations to KKnoefler247, Glogger and ArildV. -- Colin (talk) 22:50, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Photo Challenge Leaves

A few questions

• we once again had five late entries (between 00:13 and 01:07). Our policy so far was to be strict and to disqualify them - does that remain that way?
• There are some pictures where the date given by the user and the EXIF date don't match (and the EXIF date wouldn't match the restriction) - I noticed five pictures, but I'm not sure if I caught all of them - all five are from new users, Tuuli55 wrote that his camera had the wrong date and frosted leaves don't seem to be made in July (EXIF-date); Harvest apparently used the upload date as date-parameter - but the first entry was submitted on 2014-11-23 and I didn't catch the mistake. What do we do? --Anna reg (talk) 01:40, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

• 
• 
• 
• 
• 

Anna, On my photos Harvest the spotted oxalis, File:Spotted Oxalis.jpg, and the succulent, File:Graptopetalum paraguayense.jpg, were taken the day I uploaded them, which was yesterday. I never changed the date in my camera--I will see if I can do that for future reference. But all my archived photos will probably show the same date. Anyway, I will see if I can change the date for future reference. The other photo of mine, the Kale, rosemary, and cilantro.jpg, was actually taken too soon, it was taken on 10.27.2014--I just checked my file on my computer--so it isn't eligible. One of my photos that went in to late, File:Frozen puddle with fall leaves.jpg, was taken yesterday, and I was thinking of adding it to bad weather, is that going to be a problem because of the date on my camera? -- Harvest

Harvest, can you add the photographs that were taken since September 2014 and newly uploaded to Commons during November 2014 UTC. A photo taken in October will be fine. For the "bad weather" challenge, the restriction will be December 2014, so a photo taken in November won't be eligible. I'm going to process the challenge images in a couple of hours, so if you can fix the ones you want included, that would help. But any that weren't uploaded and added to the challenge prior to midnight last night UTC are too late (even if still November local time). Use an edit summary "... per talk" so anyone looking knows to check this discussion. -- Colin (talk) 17:38, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Colin, I don't have a clue what I am doing, but I already added the photos, do I need to somehow add them again? I changed the date on the File:Kale, rosemary, and cilantro.jpg. The dates on the File:Spotted Oxalis.jpg, and the succulent, File:Graptopetalum paraguayense.jpg are accurate. I took the photos yesterday and the date is for yesterday. However, the date in the metadata remains wrong on all three images, because I never changed it a single time after I bought the camera. If you need to disqualify my photos because of this--it is ok. I am in a learning process and I am much more about collaboration than competition. However, I would like to bring up a point--but if the photo gets disqualified for being after UTC time, and then next gets disqualified for being before local time--everyone who isn't on UTC time is going to have some dead hours every month that any photos they take will be automatically disqualified. And the further you are from UTC time the more dead hours there will be. Now, myself, I am totally unattached. But it is just something to think about. I am guessing on this signature line--let me know if I did something wrong: --Harvest (talk) 06:27, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Harvest, many of the photo challenges aren't restricted on when you take the photos, just when you upload. And some, like leaves have a very wide date range, so I think a few hours +/- aren't really going to affect anyone's chances. UTC for the upload/add-to-challenge is easy for us to police as MediaWiki automatically records dates in this format. I don't really want the headache of having to ask someone what their local time is, if they look like they submitted late. I'll check your entries, but I think most were disqualified by being entered too late, rather than when the photos were taken. -- Colin (talk) 21:36, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

ColinThat's not what I was saying at all, what I was saying was that one of my photos was disqualified for being entered too late for November, which is fine it was too late UTC and according to UTC it was taken in December, and I learned. But then it is next disqualified for being too early for December--because it was taken and uploaded in November local time. And it has already been up-loaded--so it is now out of play for challenges. And that is OK, as I said before, I don't care. I'm learning. You can disqualify all my photos if you like; because of the metadata date, I am not worried about that either. I am just learning and I am here to collaborate and reciprocate, not really to compete, so I am not attached and I am not upset. It is all good. And in the future I will be very careful of any photos I take in the afternoon of the last day of any given month. One lives and learns--that's what I am here to do. So, I am not complaining, I am just pointing something out. And I can find a work around in the future. So, if I am the only person that ever had a problem with this, that's cool, life goes on. But if other people have had problems, or if they do in the future, a help section on dates and times, metadata, and uploading times and so forth, if one doesn't already exist, would probably be a good idea. And while I am not up for drafting such a thing, because I barely have a clue myself, I could help edit it. I do have experience with writing and editing policies and procedures. Harvest (talk) 22:09, 1 December 2014 (UTC)(talk) 22:07, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

We won't disqualify all your pictures - the three you entered on time are fine, I just wanted to say that I had noticed some discrepancies and wasn't sure if my take on it was okay with others. But as we discussed it, I think it's clear that the five pictures above were all taken during the time the challenge allows.

About being able to submit a late entry into next months challenge - your picture would be the only one of the five pictures that were submitted late (a last one was submitted around 2:00 UTC - uploaded in December UTC), yours would have been the only one that could thematically fit into one of the December challenges - so that's rather the exception than the rule.

About the rule that pictures have to be uploaded during the challenge - that's a general rule valid for all Photo challenges, in order to force us to follow the idea behind the challenge, which is to motivate us to take and upload pictures, not to vote between those already on commons.

But you're probably right that there are enough people who don't know what UTC means - so we could add a warning that the challenge closes at UTC (Coordinated Universal Time) and not at local time - would that help? --Anna reg (talk) 23:00, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I would prefer to exclude late entries (based on UTC cutoff). We need to make this project simpler to manage not harder and exceptions make it harder. Late entries are pretty obvious to all at the voting stage from the metadata so it encourages other people to break the rules and/or causes unhappiness if others do not also get away with it. It doesn't help when one of the organisers does it and gets away with it (the last October entry was uploaded in November UTC). HelenOnline 06:10, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

There shouldn't be any this month - I notified the users who posted them and removed them all. And I think Harvest is fine with that rule, she was just confronted with them in the worst possible way - my personal advice: don't try to enter images that near to the deadline. ;->

Do you think adding an explanation of what UTC means is making the rules more complicated? --Anna reg (talk) 10:27, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I think I went through the images this month carefully, and removed a couple that were taken too early. Sorry I didn't catch the late "light on the move" entry, but it didn't get any votes so no harm done. Oh it would be nice to have some of WMF's coder's time to create a UI for PhotoChallenge that could take a few parameters when we set up the challenge and then enforce all the rules at submission/voting time. -- Colin (talk) 11:22, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

That was me... Like this month I didn't calculate winter time. In France midnight UTC summer time makes 2:00 AM and winter time makes 1:00AM. I always have a problem with summer/winter time...

For UTC I linked the French rules version to the French UTC page hoping peole going there to see what's UTC.

No one is admin here ? Can't we ask an admin to protect the pages at midnight UTC ? --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 14:10, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm confused why you are posting images at 1AM when you should be tucked up in bed :-). Assuming you could find an admin to protect the page at midnight, the page-protection would then prevent me fixing the page afterwards. Plus we get the odd case where someone needs to fix an image, or more likely, a vote, after the deadline. None of this should be happening, because we really need a better UI than "edit a wiki page" in order to submit a photo. -- Colin (talk) 14:53, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Was just an idea... Nights are so quiet to be on Wiki . --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 16:16, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Dear Anna reg, I do think a wiki linked to the challenge, that says something like, "Important information on UTC time, local time, metadata, and challenge deadlines for new participants," would be a good idea. It gives people a place to get the information, it makes it clear to everyone. And then afterwards when people like me have photos deleted from the challenge, you can say something like, "I am so sorry, I know the deadlines can be confusing. The information on the deadlines is linked on the challenge, you must have missed it. Here's a direct link so you will be more prepared next time: (give link)." Now, I must confess, I have leftest leanings, and leftests are notorious for liking structure. I also have a background in organizational management. I have found that if I can say something once in an easy to access document, it saves me from having to say it a thousand times. Plus, if it is said in an impersonal and preexisting document, that could have been accessed, and if the persons affected can help improve that document if they choose, then any hurt feelings are minimized. So, I think a wiki would make your jobs easier. And I would be willing to help edit it. And you are right--I have no problem with rules, I am not arguing against the rule. The other thing I was trying to point out, was about the date on a photo that had fallen into the cracks--but I see someone has up-dated the date on the photo to reflect UTC time instead of local time. So, whoever did that, thank you! I think I can put my camera on UTC time also . . . Harvest (talk) 17:29, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I have added UTC wikilinks for all the languages to the photo challenge templates, please let me know if any are not working. I don't think we need to do anything else to clarify what UTC means.

Llann Wé² or Colin, please can you remove the late October entry that didn't get any votes from the competition and voting pages so that there is technically no precedent to complicate our lives. HelenOnline 09:31, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

 Done: removed from voting page and added <!--...--> on the gallery page (makes me grrr regarding the 4 or 5 hours I spent to have a correct image of this match flamming by the candle but that's life...). --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 14:06, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Merci beaucoup HelenOnline 15:00, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

We could also use {{Countdown}} to make the deadline clear. It's not well documented, but the following should work:

{{countdown
 |year       = 2015
 |month      = 01
 |day        = 01
 |hour       = 00
 |minute     = 00
 |event      = this challenge ends
 |eventend   = this challenge has already ended
 }}

That would give us

this challenge has already ended (refresh)

and as far as I can see the times should be in UTC. Change the parameters to something in the near future/past to see how it looks when the deadline approaches/has passed. The only drawback is that there currently is only a translation for Italian. --El Grafo (talk) 10:08, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Good idea, I have gone ahead and added it (in English only without translations). I had to tweak the eventend parameter for sentence case. HelenOnline 10:20, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

 Info I've started a thread at the main Village Pump to see if we can get some help in polishing up this template. Feel free to add further suggestions – do we maybe need a different layout to make it more dominant? --El Grafo (talk) 11:03, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Bad weather

So far, four of the five entries to the photo challenge Bad weather were taken before December 01 (two in October, one on November 30 and one in March). How strict do we want to be? Should we remove them all? (If yes, I'd appreciate some help with checking and notifying users, as I suspect that there will be quite a few) --Anna reg (talk) 14:06, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I've been thinking that one month may turn out to be quite short for this kind of challenge, so I wouldn't oppose an extension of the time frame. Any proposals? --El Grafo (talk) 14:42, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Two out of eight were made in December (one person removed his picture but remarked about the missing clarity). Opinions, please? --Anna reg (talk) 23:26, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Oops, I was about to upload a photo taken this summer :) I added some warnings in the challenge page. I think that the restriction make the challenge more interesting. Entries non conformable to the December 2014 shooting restriction should be removed, IMO. --Myrabella (talk) 10:39, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes I agree : we need "fresh" pics. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 00:11, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I removed all pictures taken before 2014-12-01 today and notified the users. Making the challenge a two month-long challenge could be a good idea - but it did remind me that we had talked about extending the December deadlines to 2015-01-07 (and I think there wasn't anybody against that idea), but the challenge descriptions and the countdown are still set for the end of December. Anna reg (talk) 01:13, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Archiving this page?

Hi there! Since this page is starting to get quite crowded, I think time has come to think about automatic archives. The best way to do this would probably setting up the page to be archived by User:ArchiveBot (clone of the currently inactive User:MiszaBot):

{{User:MiszaBot/config
 | algo                = old(31d)
 | archive             = Commons talk:Photo challenge/Archives/%(year)d
 | archiveheader       = {{Talk archive navigation}}
 | minthreadstoarchive = 1
 | minthreadsleft      = 5
 }}

would have the bot check the page once a day and archive threads where the last contribution is older than 31 days (could be longer or even shorter), unless that would mean that there were less than 5 threads left (could be more or less). A new sub-archive would be created for each year (Should be enough, I think? Or better one per month?). Single threads could be protected from archiving by using {{DNAU}} (subst:ed). More information here. What do you think? --El Grafo (talk) 13:08, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

I think SpBot (talk · contributions · user rights management) is better, as you can choice which thread to be archived, and if discussion get no new comment, it will be archived too if |timeout= set. Disadvantage of MiszBot system is that the user cannot choice which threads to be archived (sooner or later - in fact, user can command bot to archive it later, but cannot command it to be archived earlier), and SpBot solves this. — revi_msg 13:28, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Totally fine for me as well. The only drawback I can see is that if you set a timeout there's no way to keep single threads from being archived after the timeout period (see Template:Autoarchive resolved section#Template parameters). I don't see the need to command a bot to archive sections earlier for this page, so I'd tend to prefer the MiszaBot/ArchiveBot system. But as I said: SpBot would be OK for me as well. --El Grafo (talk) 13:59, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Maybe we can ask @Euku: (SpBot master) to have that feature. Anyway, I'm not opposing ArchiveBot, and I'm fine with both being used too. — revi_msg 16:32, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

This feature is already build-in (for de:Template:Nicht archivieren). It does not take any parameters, but Template:DNAU does. … So I was too lazy to think one step further, ;-) but from user's point of view it should work with DNAU too, because DNAU creates a new timestamp in the future ("now + timeout value" < "oldest timestamp" => selection will not be archived). --Euku:^⇄ 18:55, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the information, Euku! In this case, I'd propose to use SpBot with the following configuration:

{{Autoarchive resolved section
 |age = 7
 |archive = Commons talk:Photo challenge/Archives/((year))
 |show = yes
 |level = 2
 |timecompare = resolved
 |timeout = 31
}}

This way threads will be moved to the archive 7 days after they have been marked as resolved with {{Section resolved}}. Other threads will be moved after 31 days of silence unless they are marked with {{DNAU}}. Parameters are up for discussion, of course. --El Grafo (talk) 14:08, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

I  Support this, but is ArchiveBot also used, or this is the only code that will be used? — revi_msg 14:31, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

That would all be done by spbot through the code I just proposed. No ArchiveBot needed. --El Grafo (talk) 14:37, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm being bold and adding template at the top. — revi_msg 08:02, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! Let's hope that it works as intended. We may have to add something like {{Archive box}} or Module:Archive later on. --El Grafo (talk) 13:43, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Theme page

Hi El Grafo, -revi, Euku. We had a talk about that here. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 23:58, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

But the themes subpage is more or less in use now (even if it's more a case of suggesting themes rather than discussion/developing them). I think creating an archive page per year would be fine - and leaving the last five threads sounds good (as we don't often have more than two or three sections during a month, I think that will be the limiting factor in most cases). Anna reg (talk) 09:50, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Concerning the themes subpage: Maybe we should simply start adding comments/feedback to the proposals there and hope that other people will follow. Most of the proposals there are nothing but a headline at the moment and before they can be used they'd need at least a description and some examples. I think that's what should be done over there. The discussion about which themes should be picked, however, I'd keep here. Maybe add a banner to the top of this page saying something like Got an idea for a theme? Put it up for discussion here!

Sorry, forgot to sign: --El Grafo (talk) 10:38, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you about discussing the theme choices for the coming month(s) here - but I think that  Supports and  Opposes could help to create a selection for that discussion... the reason we have mostly titles there is that I took more or less all suggestions I found here and made a list. But I could ask those who proposed the themes to explain a bit more what they were thinking of.

The banner is a good idea - the page should also be linked from the section participation on the main page. By the way, I saw that the photo challenge is now prominently placed on the main page (since 2014-10-05). Anna reg (talk) 11:00, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong: Having that list is a good point to start from. It's just that it doesn't look very inviting to add something there because it appears kinda deserted. That's why I proposed to start adding comments there: make it look alive and chances rise that people will participate (at least I hope so).

I've also put up a banner at the top of this page. Doesn't look as nice as I would have liked it to, but I guess it serves the purpose. Anyone feel free to improve that. --El Grafo (talk) 12:35, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

I'd rather we had a discussion than a vote. Adding Oppose isn't very constructive. But having just Support (popularity) would tend to favour older ideas over new ones. I still don't really know of a good way of deciding themes other than just asking someone to make a decision! But it is good to have a page where ideas can be developed and the multi-language definition worked. Perhaps we'll get to a point where there are many fully-formed themes to choose for next month and finding one requires no great problem other than coming to a decision. -- Colin (talk) 13:12, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the bannner and the link, El Grafo. I have to admit that as responses to the new page were ambiguous, I decided to wait and see - mentioning it, when somebody proposed an idea e.g. on the German talk page and trying to keep both lists up to date, but without trying to develop it much more. Colin, I like your idea of developing multilingual descriptions there. And the reason I included fog etc. is this discussion I had with Llann. Anna reg (talk) 13:27, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

I have put a level 3 headings for this. — revi_msg 14:31, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Having 2 talkpages (1 for discussing themes, 1 for all other questions) will lighten this current one. We also can archive with a manual template all closed (old themes) discussions rather than an automation.

What about creating a good looking pages with some tabs at top as we use in some FrenchWiki Pojects/Portals (sorry but English ones don't look so great ) ? This kind of tabs should ease everyone to surf in this challenge project, no ? Do templates used in those presentations work on Commons ? --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 17:26, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

I guess that could look very nice. We have Template:Start tab which does that, so I guess it should be possible. --El Grafo (talk) 15:50, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

It's great to see the themes discussion page starting to grow. But do we really need the additional list at /themes#List of theme suggestions? It's kinda redundant to the discussion page and requires manual synchronization, so I'd propose to just remove it in favour to a link to the talk page. --El Grafo (talk) 15:45, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, wrong link. I was of course talking about Commons:Photo challenge/themes#List of theme suggestions. Unless there are onjections, I'll just go ahead and replace that section with a link to the talk page. --El Grafo (talk) 10:18, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm fine with that - but I'd like to know what we should do with themes that were used, as I think it's better if we don't leave them on the talk page. Do you think that we should just delete them from the list or should we archive them? (The archiving could be done manually as we are talking about a maximum of two topics a month.) --Anna reg (talk) 18:47, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Why just adding a  in Decembre'13 challenge for each used theme and/or scratch all the discussion to show it's a closed one ? --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 21:37, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

I've removed the old list at Commons:Photo challenge/themes#List of theme suggestions in favor of the talk page. Concerning archiving: I guess the page would become quite cluttered over time if we just leave old proposals there. I'd go for a half-manual system: Using the same mechanism we use for this page but without the "timeout", so only sections manually marked with {{Section resolved}} will be moved to the archive. Should be pretty much straight forward to set up. --El Grafo (talk) 09:06, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I noticed - and I think it makes sense, so thanks. I'd also prefer to remove the topics (I checked that I already did that for some topics in the last six months). I'm just not sure if archiving via {{Section resolved}} is more helpful than archiving manually - but I don't have any experience with automatic archiving... the advantage is that you only have to edit one page and save yourself the changes in the archiving page? - which means the archived themes will be sorted by time and not by alphabet... well, I can live with that ;->. --Anna reg (talk) 10:49, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Photo challenge on the German Wikipedia

Hello, just a short note for all those also on the German Wikipedia: there's a Christmas challenge from November 06 till January 16 - the theme is Weihnachtszeit, Winterzeit, Wendezeit 2014/2015 (Christmas time, Winter time, Changing time 2014/2015) - you'll find more information at de:Wikipedia:Fotowettbewerbe/2014/Weihnachts-Fotowettbewerb. Anna reg (talk) 21:09, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Revisiting the first year: What was good? What needs improvement?

The first anniversary of the Photo challenge is approaching, I think the time has come to take a minute to look back and see where we're standing. The whole thing started as an experiment, and some of the things we decided to just do in order to get things started are still being done the same way. Maybe that's because they turned out to be a good idea, but maybe it's just because we've grown accustomed to them.

I'll start with what pops to my mind, please feel free to add further subsections to this. --El Grafo (talk) 10:14, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I think we really should rework the Commons:Photo challenge-page in order to make it easier for people to enter pictures and to find the challenges ready for voting (in my opinion they are rather hidden at the moment), as we have an influx of new users since the page is linked from the main page - which shows that the challenges are something that appeals to new users, but that the system we are using at the moment is too difficult for them. (I'm checking leaves at least every few days and just had to repair the -Insert image here.svg-File once again - perhaps that's a bad name for our last picture)

Considering those problems, I suspect that our voting system will also be seen as (too) difficult - even though I haven't observed them that closesly and therefore can't say what's really happening there. Does anybody already know if we also have a lot of new voters? Or will that only follow next month when the challenges they participated in will be open for voting? And how are people coping with our system?

I think that so soon after such a big change in users is a bad time to change the voting system - but discussing what's happening and what we need to do would probably still be a good idea... --Anna reg (talk) 13:25, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Revisiting voting

Last December, we had a rather long discussion about voting, resulting in the decision to try out the 3/2/1 stars system. The topic was brought up again in January, with the decision to give that system some more time to prove itself. In March the hearts were introduced and since then nothing has changed. There have been proposals for other voting systems like 5/4/3/2/1/ stars, 3/1/1 stars, 3 for the favorite plus one for as many pictures as you like. What do you think? Does our system need improval? --El Grafo (talk) 10:14, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

We definitely have to improve our voting system - the voting on Leaves will (in my opinion) get some strange results, as some of the best pictures only got hearts so far - and I'd have really liked to give at least six pictures some points. I think that our system doesn't work that well with many submissions... Anna reg (talk) 23:27, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

• I agree with you. Two possible lines of action: (i) to limit the number of pictures per user; (ii) to adopt the usual voting system, where we can support as many images as we want (and, possibly, also oppose). But what I deslike more is the "like-type" participation we have from many (if not the majority) of voters, who don't even check if the photograph they support is well within the theme of the contest. That is very obvious in the present Leaves contest. Alvesgaspar (talk) 23:43, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Leaves was exceptionally popular, particularly for a theme that required newly taken images. I didn't look to see how many entries people made (it was more obvious with the light on the move theme, where entries of the same thing were repeated). I've tried to explain to people that submitting lots of entries just weakens the chance that one of their entries will get enough votes. I think during December we should look again at the voting scheme to see if the 3/2/1 system is making any important difference. The problem with large number of nominations is that it really isn't possible to examine all of them full-size in any reasonable time. So limiting numbers per user may be required. And I agree that people don't read the instructions wrt theme scope for both nomination and voting, but what can you do? Appoint a jury? I'd rather Photo Challenge focused on encouraging participation (where the chance of winning was a carrot) rather than perfecting the judging system. Let's leave FP for the serious analysis of images and keep PC fun and positive. I'm loathe to introduce anything discouraging like oppose votes. And since the voting is (relatively) secret, there isn't a place to discuss opposition during the voting month. I do like how the votes are hidden, since I think if we showed them then we'd just get pile-on support of images with early support. -- Colin (talk) 19:46, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

While there were a few people nominating several images (1x12, 1x10, 1x9, 1x8), the main problem with leaves is that we had lots of nominators (57 if I'm not mistaken) - the challenges were newly linked from the main page and leaves was an easily understandable theme where a lot of new users submitted images - I'm curious to see how many of them will take the time to vote. I think that quite a lot of hearts are being distributed - which could be a sign that people would have liked to acknowledge more pictures. --Anna reg (talk) 00:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

It is very good to hear of a large number of nominators and new ones at that. There are in the end only three "winners" so at least 54 people will be disappointed whether their votes were stars or hearts. If the system produces worthy winners, it is less important perhaps how the ranking below that sorts itself. Does it matter if you get stars or hearts as long as someone has acknowledged your work and you feel appreciated? -- Colin (talk) 11:17, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

• One of perverse side effects of having too many nominations is the weariness caused to the reviewers, who will naturally give more attention to the first of the bunch. That is why, in some POTY contests, the pictures in the gallery were sheffled at each view. While I don't like this idea, because it makes more difficult to find "our pictures", that will be probably the least of the evils. Another possibility is to make the thumbs much smaller, as in a normal gallery. Whatever solution is decided I would stronlgy suggest that the number of nominations per editor is limited. -- Alvesgaspar (talk) 16:26, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that the we can observe that effect here (at least in Leaves), as the leading pictures are in the middle or towards the end. And Colin, I'm said about pictures that (in my opinion) deserve to get a place on the score-list - and the hearts don't do that... --Anna reg (talk) 16:49, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree about weariness. The very first challenge voting had random order using Javascript but we found that it caused the page to take ages to load on some browsers and I agree that it can be confusing if one takes a while to vote and returns to find the page in a different order than before. I can think of worse biases than benefiting those who submit early. Not sure what small thumbs would gain other than making it even more likely that an attractive but technically weak entry gets support. We need a sensible number of entries to make judging practical, and nominating 12 pictures is unhelpful if one considers all the people who then have to judge those. Perhaps a number like 3 or 4 would be reasonable? I'm inclined to allow more for themes with a restriction on "when taken" than for themes with no such limit (which generally have higher participation). Alternatively (and this could be too complex) allow 1 "back catalogue" image and up to 3 newly-taken images per nominee. Just brainstorming here. -- Colin (talk) 17:40, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

• We could make the thumbs so small that it would become impossible to see properly the image without clicking and opening it in full size. This trick could limit the careless like-type of votes. A different question is gaming the system by putting friends or newly created accounts to vote. Is it necessary to have a minimum number of edits to vote? Alvesgaspar (talk) 19:16, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

We already do have a minimum number of edits to vote (waived if you entered an image in the challenge, and I've sometimes waived it if I see the account if obviously not bogus). Were you not aware of this, or do you suspect that someone might game by creating a new account, and entering a joker nomination simply to gain extra votes? -- Colin (talk) 19:23, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

• I didn't know about the minimum number of edits and don't have a clear suspiction, but often we see users who had never shown up and I wonder. What do you think about the gallery trick? Alvesgaspar (talk) 19:38, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Voting mode

Now we know we have a programmer with us (sorry I forgot his name but Anna may see who I'm talking about) I'm asking myself if it's possible to adapt a script on an image.

I made a "Voting lights". It could be put beside each image in the voting page and with one click on the 1rst, 2nd, 3rd star or heart we could vote... I don't know nothing about scripts... But may be... Just an idea...

--Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 18:49, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

You are talking about Pottercomuneo - and I already wanted to answer him if he is sure that he wanted to reveal that, as it could mean that he will be drowned in requests... ;-> Anna reg (talk) 21:16, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

O_° ...

Anna, YOU revealed his name ... HE wrote he is... Cheers ! --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 23:11, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Revisiting entering images

There have been quite some comments on the various village pumps and help forums from people that were having problems entering their images into one of the challenges. Usually, they were users new to Commons – which is of course a great thing because it shows that the challenges are able to attract new contributors. However, these users seem to be rather unexperienced when it comes to Wikis in general, and it seems that our current user interface can be very confusing to them. One thing that seems to be particularly troubling is the fact that a click on "Add image here" leads to File:-Insert_image_here-.svg. Only if you click on the text that appears on mouseover you are taken to the right page. But then again the text you have to click on is Insert image between this line and the one above. Do not delete this. – which does make sense in the source code but not as an invitation to "click here to enter your image". Any proposals on how to improve the user experience, especially when it comes to new users? --El Grafo (talk) 10:14, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The hovering link was a quick solution last month and should be worked on - ideal would be to change the image into a link, but I don't know if that's possible in galleries (so far I haven't found a way to do that). Putting the text just above the image would probably make more sense - and then the link text can be changed to 'submit your candidate' or something similar... Anna reg (talk) 22:20, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm, |File:foo.jpg|image descritption|link=Commons:Photo challenge does work with galleries in principle, but not with &action=edit

• link=Commons:Photo_challenge/2014_-_November_-_Smoke&action=edit seems to show the right target URL on mouseover, but brings me to … /2014_-_November_-_Smoke%26action%3Dedit.
• link=https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Photo_challenge/2014_-_November_-_Smoke&action=edit results in … /2014_-_November_-_Smoke& amp;action=edit (without the space between the & and the amp, I just can't figure out how to make this not render as "&" on this page otherwise)

Anyone got an idea how to make this happen? --El Grafo (talk) 12:42, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

You found out more than I know... ;->

I just checked the leaves contest, added <!-- please insert images above this line. Do not delete this. --> and changed the link text - which led to finding out that the link for Leaves was wrong and two pictures were on that page as well as on the correct page. Please help me check those links in the future! --Anna reg (talk) 11:31, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

For December, ‎Llann changed the picture to 'To submit your picture to the challenge click the link below' and I used |link=Challenge name, so that people don't land on the image page but at least at the challenge page - where they have to find the edit button, if they didn't find the link.

Another thought I had, was if it wouldn't be easier to insert new candidates at the top of the gallery instead of at the bottom. I can see several advantages of doing so, as it would make the checks a bit easier, the first images shown on the main page would be the newest ones, changing regularly (perhaps it would even be possible to show only the newest 10 to 15 pictures on the main page). Any thoughts? Anna reg (talk) 12:22, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I made all the maintenance during October and yes its could be better to insert new pics at the top.

About the new "Insert image here" it's only a test. If it doesn't work better we can step back. But the best sould be a template: we click on it and add the pic without asking ourself if we must insert at the top or at the bottom... But I don't understand nothing in template creation... I've asked that on the French village pump, may be some template master will read my question... --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 15:44, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

@HelenOnline, El Grafo, Colin, and Llann Wé²: Should we try entering new images on top with the December challenges? If yes, we should decide soon... ;-> Anna reg (talk) 15:54, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

 Support --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 16:00, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

• I don't mind trying the top, but on the draft photo challenge pages, I click on the link of the sample image and it doesn't work "Cannot find section". -- Colin (talk) 20:08, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for checking (it should hopefully have worked as soon as it's on the main page, but the solution I chose now can be immediately checked) - I chose the link to the Entries section. Problem: The rules and sample gallery (which somebody created last month to show how the images and descriptions should be added) isn't in that section (at the moment); Advantage: People aren't confused by the strange wikitext for the multilingual descriptions. No idea what's really better... Anna reg (talk) 22:14, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Updating rules...

Hi.

I don't find back (again) the page to edit "Formal things" because we still have "5 - Submit your candidates at the bottom of the current challenge gallery during the challenge period. To do that you click the [Edit] button of the Entries section of your chosen challenge and insert the File name above File:-Insert image here-.svg." and "To submit pictures, you edit the gallery of the contest and add your candidate(s) to the bottom of the challenge page.". Now we add pics at the top...

 Thank you. and good weekend. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 17:33, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

PS : Is "Please note we are no longer using photo challenge categories. still good ? Some chalenger don't know we had Cat's for early challenges... --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 21:42, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

I removed the sentence from the January contest, deciding that we probably don't need it any more (but left it with the two month challenges from December, as I didn't want to change them and I don't think that the sentence bothers anybody).

The 'general rule #5' is now changed in English - but as I'm prone to mistakes it's perhaps a good idea to check it (HelenOnline, Colin?), before we ask a translation administrator to mark the page for translation...

Best wishes, Anna reg (talk) 12:21, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it is necessary to explain the detailed technical entry process (general rule #5) in both the main page and individual challenge pages (in multiple languages), especially as it is likely to change as we go through teething problems. It is not a good idea to have a duplication of instructions which are edited independently, they tend to differ over time. I have changed the Afrikaans one to say top vs bottom but left out the rest. HelenOnline 06:54, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

January themes

Hello all, i would like to join the discussion because Anna reg asked me for putting up some ideas for the january photo challenge. First thanks for all votes, i´m glad you liked my picture in the September-October Challenge "Light on the move". My suggested topics would be "Surreal", "Street photography", "Unbound flashing", "People". Needs to be more narrowly defined i guess. KKnoefler247 (talk) 08:06, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Hello KKnoefler247,

thanks for answering so soon - and with theme suggestions! ;->

I moved your entry to the bottom where I think that it will be easier found and read (new threads are normally added at the bottom) - hopefully getting us more answeres ;->.

About your suggestions - please keep in mind that there are a lot of people around here that know only very little about photography (like me ;->) - it's fine if some challenges drive us to learn new techniques, but we'll need some explanations ;-> - do you think it would be possible to give some examples to show what you mean?

People seems quite clear, could possibly be more defined or restricted but perhaps that wouldn't even be necessary; the others are a bit more difficult as at least I am not sure I know what you have in mind - Unbound flashing sounds like a photography technique (but a specialised one?), but would need more explanation (at least a link to somewhere were people like I can read what that's about... ;->).

en:Street photography seems to be a genre, that can easily be very broadly interpreted, but there should be quite a bit to explain it (Street photography).

Surreal sounds quite difficult in photography... does the categories Surrealism contain what you're thinking of?

Oh, and we should decide if Bad weather will be prolonged for January in order to decide if Street photography is a good choice for January...

Best wishes, --Anna reg (talk) 10:49, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Here's a list of themes F. Riedelio prepared,

1. Railway infrastracture (train stations, railway bridges, signal towers)
2. Fountains & Wells
3. Castles and Palaces (castle complexe, castle ruins, fortifications, water castles)
4. Railway (steam engines, trains, mountain railway, railway systems)
5. Rock faces
6. Backlighting ("luminous" leaves, silhouettes, sun, contours)
7. Huts (wooden huts, doghouses, alpine hut, mud hut,...)
8. Crosses (wayside cross, summit cross,...)
9. Monotony (repetition, uniformity, conformity)
10. Nets (fishing net, spider web, string bag, tennis net, goal net,...)
11. Horses (equestrian sport, riding school, wild horses, carriage/farm horses)
12. Towers (look-out, television tower, lighthouse, church tower, water tower)
13. Christmas (Christmas decorations, Christmas markets)
14. Winegrowing (grape-vine, vine leaves, grapes, vineyards)

Well, we've got something to discuss now... ;-> --Anna reg (talk) 21:09, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi all.

1 & 4 : very close but steam engines are rare enough to be chased .

2, 3, 8 : we have many fountains, wells, castles, palaces, crosses, horses from everywhere so the topic could have restrictions to make it funnier.

5 : I like Rock faces if I guess it means that rocks looks like people or animal faces.

6 : looks like Silhouette (Dec'13) but can be defined as Backlightning transparency or something like that ?

7 : Huts sounds fine (tipees and forest huts -house in trees- too ?) and for the south hemi can be Beach sand castle because they are almost in summer.

9 ? I don't really see how I can illustrate that : if you can give more details, thx.

10 : Nets don't refer to spider webs in French, "toile d'araignée" is more like "canvas", spiders are "weaving". I think spider webs (for example) can be mixed with Backlight in a very restricted topic : "Backlighted spider web", or "Spider webs with drops of water glistening in the sun" or it'll be too complicated ?

11, 13 : many cat's too... could you to be more restrictive, asking some creativity to challengers ?

12 : WLM made us shoot this topic but it's an idea to... dig .

14 : should be followed during a whole year  ; what about a 3-steps concept as "Flower, grape & wine" ?.

--Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 23:57, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Ouch, that's a bit negatively worded, Llann. ;->

I really like monotony, which I think is not that difficult to illustrate. And we aren't only choosing topics were we have only few pictures (or we wouldn't have had topics like leaves or bridges), so there's nothing wrong with fountains, castles, crosses (would that include jewellery?), or towers (and not all towers are listed buildings). Backlighting also made me think of Silhouette, but it would include more than that challenge did and A bunch of stuff, Two of something and Big and small could also be seen as quite similar... And if the people participating in the challenges change (Colin, do you know anything about the 'return rates' of participants?), having a similar challenge more than a year later shouldn't be a problem...

By the way, you haven't said anything to four remaining themes suggested by KKnoefler247. --Anna reg (talk) 00:52, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Was just writing what I thought seeing this list. You know I'm 'cash'... "Yes we can" choose topics because we don't have many pics on Commons just because it's a way to fill Commons with new pics... We had A bunch of things and Two of something because it was the beginning and we were looking for ideas. Two of something was about size comparizon. For Bridges I didn't say nothing because no one seemed to take care of what I was saying at this time (Calimero face!) -see my suggestion of asking winners to choose next topic and many conversations we had and where nobody replied at my words (yes, Calimero again)...

Yes, sorry, forgot KKnoefler247's ideas -forgot the 3 last topics translation too... So:

1. Surreal : sounds fine but sorry I don't have a clue of how I could manage that topic without more explanations.
2. Street photography : I would be pleased by Street arts photography but copyrights... Can you be more specific, Knoefler, please ?
3. Unbound flashing : same as Surreal.
4. People : very vague and wide... In action ? Sleeping ? Muging faces ? Alone ? In a group ?... Closeups should be restricted by "People rights", no ?

--Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 02:40, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Some warnings... ;->
I have a serious computer problem at the moment (I don't manage to start it ;->) and therefore won't be able to spend much time in the internet in the next few days - and I don't know how much time I'll have during the holidays... But as I imagine that others will also have less time for photo challenges between Christmas and New Year, we really should decide on some topics this weekend. I just asked F. Riedelio and KKnoefler247 if they want to tell us their desired themes for January.
Best wishes, Anna reg (talk) 16:46, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Hello all, my favorite themes for January 2015 are

• Lodges (wooden hut, hiking hut, mud hut, mountain hut, doghouse, refuge...)
• Outlier in terms of "all but one are equal", "one steps out of line", "swim against the current"

Best wishes, F. Riedelio --F. Riedelio (talk) 18:46, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Hey all, time is running short i guess.

• Outlier would be my pick also.

Regards KKnoefler247 (talk) 07:09, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

@HelenOnline, El Grafo, Colin, Llann Wé², Anna reg, and F. Riedelio: , we talked earlier about extending the deadline for the December themes, to allow some time after holidays for processing/upload. One theme has a "when taken" restriction and the other is unusual so new photographs will probably be needed too. This makes them less easy and hence only about 30 photos each so far. Like most people, I have guests for a lot of December, in addition to other family time, so am finding it difficult to get the time. What do we think of extending both challenges over January. Still plenty time for bad weather and to take some useful household photos. About the new themes chosen for January -- either postpone both to February, run just one in January (to make three in total), or run both also in January (making four themes for January). Possibly the middle one might be best (assuming we do extend the December themes) as it gives some people a new theme, without having too many on the go at once. Thoughts? -- Colin (talk) 15:55, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

That's OK for me to extend 1 month more to let people shoot some household items we only use for Christmas.

A third theme could be fine but not a fourth one : it'll be too much work for you Colin to check all . --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 21:10, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

+1 --El Grafo (talk) 12:27, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Then let's pick Outlier (the choice our two winners made) as a new January theme and extend the two existing ones - can somebody change the countdown? Perhaps you, El Grafo?

I just made an entry on the theme page and tried to find some pictures to illustrate the theme - please check that. If everybody is fine with the theme (and the explanation is ready), I'll notify our translators...

Well, have a nice evening and merry Christmas! Anna reg (talk) 21:01, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Llann Wé², for updating the challenges to extend them. I do plan to get my camera out (for non-family usage) next week when I get some free time! And "Outlier" sounds a really good theme to make you think. -- Colin (talk) 08:29, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Okay, here's the link for the new January challenge - corrections are welcome. --Anna reg (talk) 19:30, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure to get really what is "Outlier" and Google doesn't know more... Moe's got an explanation but it'll be kind of you to give me more.

 Thank you. and have a good end of year. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 22:11, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't trust UrbanDictionary. Try some proper dictionaries: outlier. It is a bit more extreme than just "odd one out", which is what the sample photos show. I reckon we'd get lots of "odd one out" photos, which is fine, but it will be interesting to see if anyone can do better. -- Colin (talk) 09:22, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

OK Colin, I take that (wikt says the same) but convinced to give a good translation... We'll see...--Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 14:01, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Please can we change the English name to Outliers instead of Outlier? We have plural household items so why would we have a singular outlier in a heading? It doesn't sound right in a photo challenge heading which is grammatically similar to a Commons category (see Commons:Naming_categories#Grammatical_number). HelenOnline 08:09, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Happy New Year! I have done what I can to close voting and open the new challenge and have requested a new watchlist message. The translations for the new challenge are not 100% complete, I have hidden those that were not done yet for now. HelenOnline 07:48, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Just a heads up

From 2015 I will be entering in challenges, start to vote on images and propose new themes, so I just wanted to say hi! That's all. Josve05a (talk) 19:35, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Hello Josve05a. Be welcome : we were expecting you . --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 02:38, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

@Llann Wé²: Can't we have a one day contest for fireworks? :P Josve05a (talk) 04:03, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Of course, Josve05a, it's possible. You can add this suggestion (or any other idea) here (in alpha order). You can check all the themes proposed and give your opinion, make a comment to turn topics better.

Every month we are looking for the next theme and brand new ideas are welcome. We'll have to choose Feb's theme aroud the 20th of January.

Have a fine new year's day . --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 13:45, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm really enjoying this months competition Outliers. Is there a maximum allowed submissions,or can I coninue uploading images? Josve05a (talk) 06:10, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Josve05a We have discussed imposing limits in the past, and no firm decision has been made. But the guidelines do strongly request choosing only your best work and not uploading similar images. So for example, I'd ask you to pick just one of the cat photos. If a challenge has too many submissions (e.g. well over 100) then it can become fatiguing to judge. Voters can only pick three photos to give points, so it is fairer if everyone gets a similar chance rather than flooding the challenge. Also you greatly dilute your chances of winning. Let's say both your cat photos were popular, then they'd have the votes split between them and then neither would reach the top 3. But I'm glad you are enjoying the challenge. A "handful" of images is perhaps a reasonable limit, however you interpret that term :-). If you keep experimenting with images for the challenge, there is no reason why you can't remove your earlier submissions in favour of a later one you think is better. -- Colin (talk) 10:39, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

2015...

Happy new '15 !!!

Hi.

I wish you all to start this new 2015 with great pictures and, of course, a good health.

See you next year . --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 02:37, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Llann .\m/ , I wish you the same and happy new year to all, have fun with the upcoming challenges in 2015. I miss Colin and the evaluation of the November challenge, anyone has seen or spoken to him? Hope he's alright! Greetings, Lesekreis (talk) 11:34, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I forgot about that. Will do it tonight. -- Colin (talk) 12:37, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

no problem, take your time. You're still here, that's more important ;-) Lesekreis (talk) 13:30, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

As usual, there are some invalid votes. Unless they are fixed tonight, I'll try again tomorrow (and will just remove the invalid ones). -- Colin (talk) 20:10, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I have had a busy day and no time to do this I'm afraid. Tomorrow.... -- Colin (talk) 23:10, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

In topic ???

Hi. I'm not sure that these pics are in the topic. For me that looks more like professionnal tools than household items. If you read captions...

• 
  Fabrication d'une poupée "Matriochka" à Serguiev Possad
• 
  Ouvrières dans la fabrique de cigares à Sao Felix (Brésil)
• 
  Fabrication d'un bijou sur du jade à Hokitika.- Nouvelle-Zélande
• 
  Calligraphie au temple Sensō-ji à Tokyo (japon)
• 
  Coutirières de Kudi, Pali Road à Jodhpur
• 
  Travail de tapisserie à Aréquipa (Pérou)
• 
  Press the argan oil, Algeria
• 
  Preparing traditional Christmas biscuits made of short pastry in Zell am See, Salzburg (state), Austria
• 
  prociutto e mortadella
• 
  Titan at work

--Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 14:06, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

+1

Without precisions as: indoor, personal use only or family, these examples: vacuum cleaners or coat hooks are very exciting, and also, washing bed sheets, ironing bed sheets. For more ideas thanks to read this article Household goods

Have a good sunday with many hobbies! --Doalex (talk) 11:08, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

• For me none of these are household items. Alvesgaspar (talk) 12:38, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
• The pen (File:Hokitika, travail du Jade art Maori NZ.JPG) would be fine with me - the others are probably not in topic. --Anna reg (talk) 13:34, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
• Yes, I also think that the images do not fit the theme. With the possible exception of the pen ... but what a household item is a bottle of beer? Lesekreis (talk) 16:07, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

I'll have a look/remove if I get some time later tonight. I agree that professional work isn't what we intend (another theme, perhaps). If someone else wants to be bold and remove the clearly professional/work items then that would be a help. Perhaps a note to the nominator with a link here. If we don't keep the theme on-track then more off-topic nominations will come. -- Colin (talk) 16:41, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

 Done. I wrote to PA Leclerc and Auzius, in French. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 21:12, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

One of the last entry : File:Christmas biscuits 02.JPG doesn't show any household otem, only biscuits. --Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 22:38, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that. I have guests so not much free time. It looks like a commercial kitchen rather than a home (though the "chef" isn't professionally dressed. Perhaps a church kitchen?). If the rolling pin was used then I'd probably accept it since it would be close to home, but all I see "in use" are hands and a work surface. Are the translations clear this has to be at home? -- Colin (talk) 08:03, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree with your "I'd probably accept it since it would be close to home, but all I see "in use" are hands and a work surface" Colin, so out of topic IMHO.

Household items means it's at home, isn't it ? In French I translated as "Everyday items in use : appliances and other house items ; daily utensils, vacuum cleaner to tooth brush, coat rack to potato masher, photographed during use." hoping it renders/interprets correctly the topic. But the two last pics of the above gallery were not posted by French users... For other translations I don't know...

--Llann .\m/ ^{(Lie 2 me ...)} 21:04, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes it needs to be at home (domestic), rather than work. So "everyday items" isn't quite the same. -- Colin (talk) 14:15, 11 January 2015 (UTC)