User talk:Clindberg/archives 6

Reply to your comment at UDR

Hi Carl, in reply to this: I did not personally attack Jcb. I did just comment on his admin activity - and the stuff which is going on here recently really annoys me. And what is the cause? These admin actions at the end because another file got deleted. He got the message. Yes, I know, not by using the best way - sorry for this. I really try to avoid it, I do not like it, I do not like what is happening with our beloved Commons and that we all are wasting our time here. Cheers --Saibo (Δ) 01:47, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, not awful, but... it was beginning to border on personal, to me ;-) The "admin from 2005" bit, and the barnstar most of all. Born out of frustration, yes, legitimate issue, yes, but it felt like the criticism was veering into areas which threatened to derail the main point, that's all -- seemed to me the line had been crossed a little bit, that's all. Carl Lindberg (talk) 02:42, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Carl - appreciate your comments. I am not sure if the "Wikipedia admin of 2005" was understood in the way I meant it. I wanted to refer to those times when disk space was short (or thought to be short) and unused pictures were deleted (also from disk). Cheers --Saibo (Δ) 15:51, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Commons:Deletion requests/File:水は方園の器に.jpg

A question that may interest you.      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 15:29, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

The Commons Barnstar

		The Commons Barnstar
		... for your knowledgeable, balanced and dedicated support in many cases dealing with difficult copyright issues e.g. undeletion discussion about File:EveMillerInKansasPacific1.png. Groetjes -- Neozoon (talk) 20:40, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Question: Copyvio Tags

Newbie (me) wants to know if simply tagging an image in Commons as a speedy delete and/or copyvio with a reason is all that's required to get the ball rolling for it to be reviewed by an Admin for deletion. Is there a Bot that picks up the tags, or should editors post the deletion request somewhere else?Atsme (talk) 15:39, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Speedy tags put them in a category which admins will go through. See Commons:Deletion policy, and Commons:Deletion requests/Speedy deletion for a bit more on how to do it. Those are reserved for obvious cases though. If there is any possibility of debate, it is better to put up a regular deletion request. That can be done wit the "Nominate for deletion" link on the file pages. That especially goes if you are challenging long-standing practice like Commons:Stamps/Public_domain#Moldova. Carl Lindberg (talk) 17:00, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

25-year typographical arrangement copyright

Hi Clindberg, if you have the time, could you elaborate a little bit more about the "25-year typographical arrangement copyright", which you mentioned in the now archived Commons:Undeletion_requests/Archive UR discussion about the 3 Atheist campaign tube images, at Commons:Deletion requests/File:Atheist campaign tube3.jpg, which I have re-opened just to check/discuss for this aspect. Thanks. --Túrelio (talk) 06:35, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Commons:Deletion requests/File:"Appreciate America. Come On Gang. All Out for Uncle Sam" (Mickey Mouse)" - NARA - 513869 - cropped and tidied.png

Would you take a look at this please? -- I opened it mostly based on your comments at Commons:Deletion requests/File:"Appreciate America. Come On Gang. All Out for Uncle Sam" (Mickey Mouse)" - NARA - 513869.tif. I think I understand the issues, but maybe you can explain it better than I. Thanks,      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 15:07, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Hey Carl, could you please comment on round 2. I still have substantial concerns about this image. Thanks! Kaldari (talk) 18:54, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Your opinion please

Greetings!

I have found you to be able to make particularly wise and well-informed comments on liscensing issues.

Do you weigh in on liscensing issues on images on the English language wikipedia?

I came across this image -- w:File:Obaidullah photo.PDF -- which had questionable and contradictory liscensing. I tried to draft a fair use rationale that would start to bring it into compliance. I also initiated a discussion of the image at Wikipedia:Non-free content review#File:Obaidullah photo.PDF

Another contributor removed the purpose field from that attempt I had made to draft a compliant fair use rationale, and nominated the file for deletion at Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2011 October 23#File:Obaidullah photo.PDF

I know that if a source can't be found the image can't be kept. If a source can be found however, the original photographer would either be his original Afghan friends, family or neighbours, or Afghan security officials, or American security officials. Can you remind me of your opinion of the IP status of unpublished images taken by Afghan citizens, in Afghanistan?

It is my opinion that my challenger lapsed by:

1. Initiating a deletion discussion when I had already initiated a review discusion;
2. Not informing those participating in the review discussion that they had initiated a deletion discussion;
3. Their decision to excise the key field from the fair use rationale rather than state they disagreed with it;
4. I also think it was intemperate to call my initial draft a "rant" -- FWIW.

I'd be grateful if you would offer your opinion on the copyright status of unpublished Afghan images, either here, or there.

Thanks! Geo Swan (talk) 17:06, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

w:Template:PD-HHOFFMANN

If you're up for the task, I think this template could use a rewrite. The cited source is a dead link, and the text itself doesn't really seem completely accurate even to a copyright novice like me. I thought it would mention that the work has differing copyright states based on jurisdiction and explain the difference between the English Wikipedia and Commons regarding country of origin, but instead the template seems to take the US point of view, stating unequivocally that the work "...is considered public domain because..." I expected this to be much more carefully written than it is. Dominic (talk) 15:55, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

That template is on the English Wikipedia only; indeed there are different situations in different jurisdictions, but en-wiki is typically only concerned with U.S. copyright law so other aspects are not really mentioned. It probably should have a note to not move such images to Commons though. The situation with seized WWII material is very complicated, but there was the court case which basically explicitly ruled they were PD (there is a special exemption of the URAA which did not restore some such copyrights) so there is little doubt of that status in the U.S. (and also little doubt in Germany -- they are 70 pma there). With dead links, you can always look at the Internet Archive to see if there are old versions -- in this case there is, here. Carl Lindberg (talk) 03:31, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Corrections to Indian or Inuit image descriptions

You mentioned on Dominick'c talk page that you have found more errors in these uploads. Are you maintaining an errata list, or is someone? the lists on Dominick's talk page appear static. I've found a couple more switches, which you may already know about.

File:Buffalo dance of the Mandans, 1833 - 1834 - NARA - 530978.jpg‎

switched with File:Medicine Man Charlie Turquoise (third from right) leads a group of Navajo dancers, Fort Wingate, New Mexico, 1941 - NARA - 531134.jpg

Buffalo Dance of the Mandans is a pretty famous image and we already have several other versions. I'd like to know more about the origin of the NARA B&W versions of Bodmer's works.

File:Great Camp of the Piekanns near Fort McKenzie, Montana, 1833 - NARA - 530976.jpg‎ switched with

File:Bird's eye view of Sioux camp at Pine Ridge, South Dakota, 11-28-1890 - NARA - 530802.tif

I put the Select List urls on the pages (except the last). I will file renames on these within the next couple days. If you have more, I could do some more. Dankarl (talk) 14:55, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

There are a couple more referenced in Commons:National_Archives_and_Records_Administration/Error_reporting, particularly one at the bottom. My guess is that if we go through the entire select list, a majority of them would have a problem. It would seem that the program adding the ARC records had an issue with the images, and was often off by one, often in whole blocks. If you don't want to move images around (cleanest in some ways, but those are huge files we would be duplicating) then maybe completely swapping descriptions is the better way to go -- including retaining the NARA-image-full template, and pointing to the ARC record which has the correct description (or at least noting the two ARC records, one with the description, and one with the image). I don't like removing all the relevant information and pointers, the way it was done with File:An Uainuint Paiute aiming a rifle, southwestern Utah - NARA.tif. It's a simple image swap issue at NARA; the ARC record with the correct description would have all the correct source info I'd think. That one should be pointing to ARC record 517730, as that has the correct information on the image, except that the Digital Image with it is wrong -- that record provides far more information about it than the select list page does. Carl Lindberg (talk) 17:28, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm coming around to Dominic's opinion that simply keeping the names the same, and just uploading the correct image for that name, is the easiest approach, and doesn't have to involve anyone else. Dominic's bot could probably handle things itself if NARA would fix their records, but obviously we can't rely on any sort of a timeframe for that. Is there a way to purge the bad revisions later, which could free up disk space? Carl Lindberg (talk) 19:59, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Carl - Thanks for the pointer to the errata page.

I don't intend to leave the NARA descriptions off forever, but to put them up in an interim basis implies, to me, a degree of "officialness" and confidence that I am not ready to ascribe to either my fixes or the original uploads. Also the Select List descriptions sometimes have the photographer and/or location when ARC does not. We'll get all these fixed eventually but I don't want to propagate errors so I'm putting up only what I know. See also my response on Dominick's page. Dankarl (talk) 23:06, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

From what I've seen, the ARC record seems to have everything (sometimes you need to look in one of the other tabs, or the info is just in the title, the group record, or something like that). I think they even reference the Select List number (this one certainly does). But, nothing wrong adding a link to the Select List either. Leaving off the NARA descriptions means that likely we will forget to re-add them someday, which would just make this situation worse than it already is. I think the quickest solution is to simply upload the correct image associated with the description and ARC number, so it is all consistent. That will not risk messing anything up, I don't think, and can be done by us without waiting for NARA and any automated solution. I have not come across any ARC record which was internally inconsistent, other than having the wrong "Digital Copy" associated with it, so I think I'd prefer to just fix them along those lines -- fix the image and not the description, which is otherwise correct  :-) Carl Lindberg (talk) 23:24, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Take for instance ARC 531119 "Eskimo dance orchestra, including..." The Select List entry has the photographer listed as Stanley Morgan, while ARC has "Author unknown or not provided" (in the template as uploaded ) and I can't see anything to the contrary on any tab of the ARC page I get by clicking the number 531119 in the template display. If I've missed a whole section please provide both a url and instructions how to find the next one.

I'm willing to put the templates back in after a little checking, but I've got some questions. I'll post them to Dominick's page, since that's where people will look first. Dankarl (talk) 02:19, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Hm, that is interesting. It's possible, reading this, that Stanley Morgan was the only Signal Corps person at Point Barrow, so it could be deduced that way -- the Select List pages list him as the photographer for several of those photos. (Morgan seems to have been the person to first reach the crash site where Will Rogers died.) But, that information never made it back to the ARC records, it would seem. The UMIACS page on it doesn't seem to have an author either. The images do have a Signal Corps Identification Number on them... I wonder if there was some corresponding documentation there. Anyways, interesting. May as well add that (the "Unknown or not provided" means the parameter in the template was blank). Carl Lindberg (talk) 07:07, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Interesting article Dankarl (talk) 14:13, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

There are no pending renames. The four switched files I listed above are the only ones I know about that do not appear in one of the errata lists. I'll update Dominick's page with a list of the renames I put through Dankarl (talk) 20:10, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

BTW the first pair above, and wrong image for 530976 also appear in the errata page.Dankarl (talk) 20:31, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

So did you get a chance to try any uploads? Dankarl (talk) 22:47, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Not just yet -- Dominic indicated many have been fixed at NARA but not yet updated. A few things came up in personal life too. Still, I'll have a go at the four images you have noted above tonight. Carl Lindberg (talk) 23:25, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Okay, done those. The TIFs are only 5-7MB (I wast thinking more like 70) so this really isn't a big deal at all. Carl Lindberg (talk) 06:29, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

PD in Israel, but not outside?

Hi Clindberg, in case you are interested, your comment in Commons:Deletion requests/File:Beit Alpha 1933.jpg might be welcome. --Túrelio (talk) 11:01, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Some sculptures

Base on some remarks you made recently, I was wondering whether these photos of mine might be usable on Commons: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmabel/sets/72157621064485137/. They are post-1923, but pre-1978; I doubt there was any proper copyright, but wouldn't know where to begin to work it out. - Jmabel ! talk 22:34, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Benjamin Haldane and other known photographers in the Wellcome collection (NARA)

I was wondering what license to use for these. They clearly are not government works. A few may have been distributed widely enough at the time they were made to constitute publication, and the Josiah Guthrie portraits may nave been works for hire. In most cases they were private portraits and there is no indication Wellcome got anything more than a copy. Haldane died in 1941 so they could be PD-old (or be so in a month - how do you count?) but there is that nasty 1989-2002 period when publication would extend the copyright. If I understand the timing, NARA got the images in 1961. Do we know when they started distributing the digital files? What date counts? see category Benjamin Alfred Haldane and [1]. Dankarl (talk) 02:32, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Commons:Village pump/Copyright#Generic questions, using Kroger as an example

Thanks for the info, Carl Lindberg!

I've never posted in Commons, so I'm not sure of the protocol. Should I have posted a brand new question? Also, I couldn't find a Talkback type template that worked right...

Could you please look back at Commons:Village pump/Copyright#Generic questions, using Kroger as an example? I'll have a followup about another Kroger logo, but the Ford examples I cite might influence my understanding.

If I don't respond right away it's because I may be off Wiki for the next few weeks due to holiday functions. Thanks again! --Chaswmsday (talk) 00:03, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

U know ur stuff well!

Carl - Thanks for the paragraph on why anonymous people can be involved it copyrights. Very good! Your discussion needs to be saved so it isn't just archived into nowhere. Is there an appropriate place for such things? Doug youvan (talk) 14:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

+1 Rd232 (talk) 09:36, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Discussion moved

A discussion you were involved in has been moved to Commons:Village pump/Copyright. Please continue the discussion there. Thank you. Rd232 (talk) 09:35, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

File:Occidental Avenue South (Seattle, Washington).jpg

Could I ask you to look in at Commons:Deletion requests/File:Occidental Avenue South (Seattle, Washington).jpg? You usually are sharper on borderline copyright cases than I am, and I don't really want to keep arguing with two people who are becoming increasingly personal about it, since I really have nothing further substantive to add. - Jmabel ! talk 18:51, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

A couple more switches

I have identified a couple more photo switches; these apply also to the respective TIFs. I wonder if you could upload the correct versions?

• File:Celebration, Metlakahtla. Alaska. Church visible in background on left. - NARA - 297977.jpg
• File:Bandstand and rostrum erected soon after the landing 0f Metlakahtlans on Annette Island, Alaska. - NARA - 297978.jpg

• File:Class in session in Duncan's school, fire under chimney in foreground. - NARA - 297858.jpg
• File:View of Metlakahtla, Alaska. - NARA - 297857.jpg

These are currently catagorized according to the (incorrect) image, not the description. Thanks, Dankarl (talk) 19:21, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Done. In the future, you might report them at Commons:National Archives and Records Administration/Error reporting first (I've done that for these), then just let me know. Carl Lindberg (talk) 02:34, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Will do. Dankarl (talk) 20:48, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

3D artwork in a public place

Hi. :) Since you took part in this conversation, I just wanted to let you know that the legal team has been looking into this question. One of the legal interns has posted some thoughts on the matter at the village pump. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 19:52, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

The content now lives at Commons:Public art and copyrights in the US. Kaldari (talk) 08:46, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

As somebody else said at the village pump: nice to see that this essentially confirms our understanding. I might add that the latter is essentially based on the discussions at Template talk:PD-US-statue/proposal some three years ago. It's reassuring to see that the new Commons:Public art and copyrights in the US seems to agree with the tentative table there. Lupo 11:12, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

COM:TOO example

Hi Carl, File:Hercules 1998 Intertitle.png is listed at COM:TOO as an example, but the discussion at Commons:Village_pump/Copyright/Archive/2011/07#File:Hercules_1998_Intertitle.png suggests it should be proposed for deletion again because of the background complexity. Would you do that, if you agree? Rd232 (talk) 13:52, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Request for help

Hello Clindberg! User:Túrelio recommended you as the undisputed copyright guru, so I've come to you for a somewhat complicated copyright question. I've recently submitted an image for deletion (Commons:Deletion requests/File:Fort Lachine.jpg) and was hoping you could provide some input. When I originally uploaded the image, I thought it was published before 1923 and in the public domain in the US. However, with a little more research and help from other Commons editors, it was discovered that the image came from a book that was published in Belgium in 1927 (I don't believe it was ever copyrighted in the US). Since then, I've become concerned that the image isn't in the public domain in the US because its copyright was restored by the Uruguay Round Agreements Act. After reading this table (under Works Published Abroad Before 1978) on the Cornell University website, the book from which the Fort Lachine image was taken would fall under the following category: "Solely published abroad, without compliance with US formalities or republication in the US, and not in the public domain in its home country as of 1 January 1996" for material published 1923 through 1977. Therefore, the US copyright would expire 95 years after initial publication. The book was published in 1927, so it appears to be under copyright in the US until 2022. This is in agreement with Wikipedia:Non-U.S. copyrights and the current Commons license tags for non-US works. Therefore, I suspect that the image should be tagged with {{Not-PD-US-URAA}} and deleted. If you have time, could you please provide your opinion on this matter. Kindest regards, --AlphaEta (talk) 14:03, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Use of the image

Hello, Clindberg!

User:Jmabel advised to address to you. I placed an emblem of the Wiki any doubts about the possibility of its use. On the one hand, according to Russian law national symbols freely used. But can I use a particular image it conveyed to me in the city administration. Regards, Yuri We are talking about this file: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gerb_kineshma_ivanovskaya_oblast.jpg

with respect, yuri

--Юрген1986 (talk) 20:29, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Commons:Deletion requests/File:The Lost Prince.djvu

The work was speedily deleted after the enWS contributor believed that the images are copyright (presumably based on UK copyright thoughts). It is a US work and we need to chase it down through there and if you are able to assist that would be great, or at least some of your informed opinion would be great.  — billinghurst sDrewth 00:08, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Commons:Undeletion_requests:Current_requests/File:Churubusco_map.png

Thanks for your help with this. Because it was closed rather quickly, I left a note at User_talk:Davodd#Commons:Undeletion_requests:Current_requests/File:Churubusco_map.png.      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 02:15, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Trying to understand the application of URAA: a concrete example

You seem to have a good understanding of many of the nuances of copyright and the URAA. I am trying to ensure I understand it, and I have a specific example (which is not hypothetical; we have Commons images, which I tagged as Not-PD-US-URAA based on my understanding at the time). The Rite of Spring, by Igor Stravinsky, was first published in an arrangement for piano four-hands in 1913, I believe in France (Stravinsky lived in Switzerland at the time, but most of his commercial activity was taking place in France). For the sake of current argument, let's assume it was published in France, and let's also just look at this version and ignore the fact that the full orchestral arrangement wasn't published until 1921, though I think the end result is very similar if we assume Switzerland and/or count from the 1921 publication. Stravinsky died in 1971. It appears to me that France's rule is, and has been for some time, 70 years pma. Time is added to the duration (now only for musical works, but that's what this is) for each of the World Wars, but for the sake of simplicity for the moment I will ignore that. It appears that The Rite of Spring (and Stravinsky's other compositions that were first published in France) remains under copyright in France for several more decades (January 1, 2042, plus the extra time for each war). Since it was under copyright in the origin nation as of the restoration date, it would have been eligible to have its copyright restored under URAA. However, you commented that the URAA restored works to what their copyright status would have been if they had been first published in the US, correctly registered, and correctly renewed. If I understand correctly, a work such as The Rite of Spring would remain PD-1923 in the US (but of course still copyrighted in France) despite URAA. Did I get that right, or am I misapplying some aspect? Thanks for you help, cmadler (talk) 07:02, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

That's correct. Something published in 1913 would have become PD in the U.S. on Jan 1, 1989 if it had correctly followed all formalities, so the restoration had no effect. For something published in 1921, it actually would have been restored with a 75-years-from-publication term, and its U.S. copyright was valid throughout 1996. However, its U.S. copyright expired again on January 1, 1997. Stuff published in 1922 (in the U.S. or elsewhere) expired on January 1, 1998, as normal. During the year in 1998, the U.S. extended terms to 95 years from publication, so there is a 20-year freeze of copyright expirations in the U.S. On January 1, 2019, works published in 1923 are scheduled to expire. But yes, anything published before 1923 is still PD in the U.S., regardless of the URAA. Stravinsky's copyright in France will last a good long time, as you say. Something published in 1913 would get the extension of both wars, something published in 1921 would just get the WWII extension. Carl Lindberg (talk) 13:21, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

URAA and French works

Hello, I am having a new doubt. Please see what I wrote here. Teofilo (talk) 15:39, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Works of Maurice Ravel

Hi Carl, FYI Hsarrazin is a French jurist specialized in documentation. If there is someone who knows how French copyright works, it is certainly her. Regards, Yann (talk) 20:30, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Hello, Clindberg. You have new messages at Commons_talk:Licensing#Romania_-_extension_of_copyright. You may remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Eurovision Song Contest 2012 logo

Hello, there is an unanswered copyright issue at Commons:Deletion requests/File:Eurovision Song Contest 2012 logo.svg, and since you have a strong familiarity with copyright law, I thought I would ask you for your input. We have established that File:Eurovision Song Contest 2012 logo.svg is PD in the US, but the question remains outstanding on what about the country of origin? Could you please help determine the country of origin (is it Switzerland?), and provide some information on whether the threshold of originality in that country is higher than the complexity of this logo? Many thanks in advance. CT Cooper · talk 10:14, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Admin Question, again

I think your last word on the subject was User_talk:Kanonkas/Archive_2#Adminship, where you basically said that you didn't want to make the commitment. Normally I would honor that and go away and shut up -- I try to recruit active Admins, not people who won't help with our growing backlogs.

I think, though, that you are a special case. Today, for the nth time, you said in an Undeletion Request, "I can't see the [image], so can't directly comment -- but...." Your knowledge of the law and ability to put it in simple words is so valuable to Commons that it would be boon to us all if you would become an Admin and be able to see images when commenting in a UnDR. I would be delighted to nominate you on that basis -- that you might use the tool only when you needed to see an image in order to comment fully on it. While you would have to do five Admin actions every six months to keep the tool, that doesn't need to take more than five minutes if you pick off five non-controversial items from any daily log. Please consider it.      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 14:46, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

+1 I would like to endorse Jameslwoodward's excellent suggestion. --AFBorchert (talk) 16:01, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I would also like to second Jim. I am sure you would be highly accepted as an admin, even if you would not “actively” use the tools. --Leyo 16:33, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

My opinion remains the same :) — Kanonkas // talk // e-mail // 20:07, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Likewise, I steadfastly believe you'd make a good admin. Killiondude (talk) 08:54, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I'd be willing to consider a CLindberg user group, with the relevant viewdelete user rights... ;) Failing that, perhaps we could figure out an RFA predicated on an automatic desysop arrangement which kicks in if you exceed, say, 10 admin actions per quarter... :0 Well, perhaps we shouldn't try to press-gang you into something you don't want. Rd232 (talk) 18:33, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Czar Admin - Your contributions to our recent very complex discussions are excellent. Are you a copyright attorney? Doug youvan (talk) 00:52, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd also encourage you to accept adminship. I was also more dragged into it than not, but I do find that some of the tools are quite useful. - Jmabel ! talk 05:04, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Template:PD-Romania

Thanks for the work on Template:PD-Romania. Maybe you wish to clarify its specific usage at Commons:Copyright tags#Romania. Best regards.--Codrin.B (talk) 20:06, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

There is a fair amount of overlap between {{PD-Romania}}, {{PD-RO-photo}}, and {{PD-RO-1956}}. Not sure we need all three tags. Anyways, I made a note about using PD-Romania for works where the author died before 1946, as that is the most common situation, and that case is not covered by the latter two. Carl Lindberg (talk) 20:20, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

That's what I felt too, as it seems a little confusing. Thanks for clarifying. We need some lawyers for this ;-) --Codrin.B (talk) 20:41, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

BTW, not sure if you seen this Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Images from the Romanian Communism Online Photo Collection.--Codrin.B (talk) 21:06, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Village Pump

Carl,

I just added this: From User_talk:Kraaiennest / Crowsnest: "Dear Doug Youvan, I do not intent to make the code available, since it is (in part) the property of others." Doug youvan (talk) 16:05, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

It does not appear that we are arriving at a consensus. Could you comment on the Pump as to what the quote (given above) implies for our discussion, please? Doug youvan (talk) 18:40, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I think I understood your last comment. Very good. I reduced it to one sentence and asked you a yes / no question. Please help again. Thank you. Doug youvan (talk) 00:47, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Copyright on photograph by an Italian author

Could you take a look at Commons:Valued image candidates/Charles Lucky Luciano.jpg and weigh in or let me know what you think about the copyright issue raised? I know there's been a fair amount of discussion about {{PD-Italy}}, but it all seemed to have to do with works that were first published in Italy, while here an editor is asserting that this law applies to "all works of Italian authors, wherever first published." Thanks, cmadler (talk) 11:32, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you!

... for the new insights that you gave me on the reasons some of the copyright laws are formulated one way or another. While I knew the letter of the Romanian laws and I've read some things about the international IP treaties, both at commons and elsewhere, there were some things that seemed quite strange to me. In the discussions we had about RO copyright laws you managed to clarify some of the reasoning behind the laws for me.--Strainu (talk) 11:21, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Template:Walters Art Museum license/en

Carl, Could you have a look at Template:Walters Art Museum license/en? We are preparing upload of 20k+ images and would prefer to make sure all the licenses are proper before the upload. Please reply at Template talk:Walters Art Museum license. --Jarekt (talk) 13:55, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

No panoramafreiheit in France: possible copyvio

I wanted to get your opinion before I go off nominating most of Category:Galeries Lafayette (Paris) for deletion (all except subcats Category:Views from the Galeries Lafayette (Paris) and Category:Spice display - Galeries Lafayette (Paris)). My understanding is that there is no freedom of panorama in France, and buildings are under copyright for 70 years pma (which extends 70 years from the death of the last survivor in the case of multi-author works). From what I can find, this building was designed by Georges Chedanne and Ferdinand Chanut; Chedanne died in 1940, and Chanut in 1961, so the building itself is under copyright until 2032 (70 years pma). For the night images, there's an additional issue of the lighting display; if the creator of the display lived beyond 1942 -- I'm guessing the display wasn't even created until at least the 1960s -- that is also still under copyright. Am I right that these should be deleted from Commons, or is there another consideration I'm missing? Thanks, cmadler (talk) 17:20, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

DR redux

I would be interested in your response at User talk:MBisanz#File:Бой_Максима_Кривоноса_с_Иеремией_Вишневецким.jpg. Thanks. MBisanz ^talk 21:14, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Hello

You made File:US-WhiteHouse-Logo.svg, would you be willing to make this one used by Hawaii? Fry1989 ^eh? 22:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I didn't make it, a government artist did -- I only extracted it from a PDF file, and converted to SVG. File:US-WhiteHouse-Emblem.svg is another version of it. I'm not too good with creating that stuff; the ones I've done myself have taken me quite a while. And, since that one is the work of a state government artist, anything too close would probably be a derivative work (someone could take the White House logo style, look at photos/plans of the Hawaii house, and make their own version -- but if they follow that graphic too closely, it could still be a derivative work). There is actually a similar graphic for the Lieutenant Governor on this page; if you need that to use under fair use. However, I'm not sure how relevant the Governor's version is anymore -- that particular house is no longer used for government purposes, but has been a museum since 2008 I think, as they built a new building to serve the government purpose that year. Carl Lindberg (talk) 16:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't know you extracted it. Bugger. Anyhow, thanks anyways :) Fry1989 ^eh? 18:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Commons:Deletion requests/File:Hold Anything.jpg

Could you take a look at Commons:Deletion requests/File:Hold Anything.jpg if you have the time? I'm not sure if I've searched everything I need to search for renewal on Bosko, among other things.--Prosfilaes (talk) 09:42, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Raising a totem pole

Could I ask you to look in at Commons:Village_pump/Copyright#Totem_pole:_possible_copyright_issue.3F? My question, but so far no one who has weighed in knows any more than I do, and no conclusion at all has really been reached. - Jmabel ! talk 00:38, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Commons:Deletion requests/File:John F Kennedy Official Portrait.jpg

Hi Carl, if you have the time, could you take a look at this DR? The interesting question is whether official portraits of the White House count as works of the Federal Government. Thanks and kind regards, AFBorchert (talk) 08:53, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

File:US-FishAndWildlifeService-Logo.svg

File:US-FishAndWildlifeService-Logo.svg has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry. If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue. Please see Commons:But it's my own work! for a guide on how to address these issues. Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!

71.48.183.124 21:26, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Czech statue in U.S.

Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Statue of Lenin (Fremont, Seattle, Washington). I suspect you will have a much better idea of the status of this than either the nominator or myself. - Jmabel ! talk 00:15, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Need advice re: undated train images

There are several I'd like to upload but they have no date. Some are older postcards which have no date and were never mailed. To the best of my knowledge, they are pre-1978, and certainly pre 1983 as they don't have the "+4" ZipCodes on the back. Have been to copyright.gov on searches for both the company who printed them and the respective photographers given credit and no information has been found.

The others involve photos of the defunct Seaboard Air Line railway. Two aren't marked re: date or photographer, but can be dated by the company's 1967 merger. One is marked as being from Culver, who did not mark the photo with copyright information. It can be dated as being before the 1967 merger. The other is not dated or marked but is a photo of a train the railroad premiered in 1938 as a streamlined diesel train. Can any of these be uploaded and if so, what's the best thought re: licensing the postcards that are a bit more difficult to date? Thanks, We hope (talk) 23:47, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Do you have the physical postcards? I'm not sure the lack of "+4" codes is a reason to date it (though inclusion would prove a minimum date). However, if you have the actual postcards, and there is no copyright notice (which was permitted to omit the year actually, but would need the C symbol or the word copyright), and there is good reason to believe they are from before March 1, 1989, and they were from the United States, then they could be uploaded. It would be best to upload a scan of the back first, then a scan of the front, so that the back is also included in the image history (copyright notices could be there so it's nice for that proof to be available). Carl Lindberg (talk) 01:35, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Don't have the cards personally, but have access to both sides of the cards, and there's nothing that would indicate "copyright" in any form on the cards, which were all printed in the US. My general practice with all images is to include a front and back as a "first upload" so there's proof there is no notice on the item and also proof of dating in many cases. Haven't started digging through my own "train stuff" yet. ;-) We hope (talk) 01:58, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you!

Thanks for your timely feedback! Truthskr (talk) 16:19, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Commons:Undeletion_requests/Current_requests#File:New_Horizons_Jupiter_flyby.png

I wanted to ask if you have received anything from your emails yet. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 20:22, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Commons:Undeletion_requests/Current_requests#File:Cygnus_X-1.jpg

Would you take a look at this, please? Thanks,      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 17:31, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Body Art

I'd like to explore this a little further, if you don't mind, because I'm not certain I understand your reasoning. If we stipulate that body art is creative, then an artist should be able to copyright his work so that others cannot copy it. That is, after all, why copyright in art exists -- to prevent copying a creative work. If that's true, then a photograph of body art is just as much a DW as a photograph of an Andy Warhol.

As for the utilitarian question, we accept that a painting on the side of a truck has a copyright -- it does not matter that the canvas is a utilitarian object if the creative work is separate from the object. The same is true of dinner plates and many other things. Why is it different if the canvas is skin?

I don't, by the way, buy the argument that body art is thin clothing. It is true that really well done body art is hard to tell from clothing in a photograph, but there is no question of that in person. So body art does not conceal and does not protect one from the elements, which are the two utilitarian aspects of clothing.

You mentioned tattoos. Is there some case law on tattoos that I don't know about? I would think that a tattoo, whether henna fake,or real under the skin, would have a copyright on the same reasoning.

Thanks,      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 11:04, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

The same thing exists for clothes though. The patterns on clothes can indeed be registered with the copyright office, even if the clothes themselves cannot. The idea is, obviously, to prevent other manufacturers from copying the same patterns. However... a picture of someone wearing clothes with such patterns we generally don't consider a derivative work -- depicting its use in everyday life just doesn't seem like the kind of thing derivative works were meant to control. Body art... a little different, but unless the photo is really focusing in on the art itself to the exclusion of the person, I really don't see it being considered derivative. Body art is not something which copies can really be made; it's not something the artist can commercially exploit other than selling their painting services at the time. In countries with FOP, that is more or less the equivalent of an ice sculpture in terms of its permanence -- the work is destroyed forever once the wearer takes a shower. Deletion of pictures of a street fair which contain people wearing body art -- I really don't see how that would affect the normal exploitation of that particular type of work, and I would be really surprised if a court actually ruled that type of thing derivative. I've never heard of a photo of someone wearing clothes being deemed derivative of the clothing pattern copyright, never heard of a photo of a costume being deemed derivative of a mask or even a copyright character (making the costumes themselves is very different of course), and never heard of a photograph of a street scene like those being deemed derivative of body paint or tattoos or the like. Just like a photo of the bottle is not derivative of the label, even if the label is copyrightable and prominent -- that is not the focus of the photographs, usually. It's a photo of the street scene, or a photo of the entire person. I would rather not delete photographs like that without some sort of court precedent we can point to -- and really, Ets Hokins and the Latimer decisions instead point to that type of photo not being a derivative work. It might be different if the photo was focusing in on the artwork itself to the point of barely showing the body, i.e. the artwork is truly the focus of the photograph, but for one-off, non-permanent works like body paint, I'm not sure there is too much in the way photographs could do to affect their normal exploitation. I mean, has there ever even been a copyright transfer of such a work? At some point the theory of copyright can break down when it comes to certain real-life situations :-) Tattoos are a thorny problem because they become part of the person -- you are kinda saying a person no longer has rights over their own body, and cannot distribute photos of themselves or post them there without permission of every tattoo artist they've ever used. Tattoo templates sold by artists -- sure, that's different. But there are some real-life practical limitations with that kind of thing. (There is only one tattoo case that I'm aware of, involving Rasheed Wallace, which did not go well for the artist, who settled quickly -- but Wallace may have been a co-author in that case, which would destroy most any claim anyways). Carl Lindberg (talk) 12:03, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the detailed explanation. I think I agree, mostly because, as you say, it is so transitory. Otherwise, it feels to me like a painting, with skin for the canvas. I suppose one could say that it is like street art -- pastels on the sidewalk -- in that respect. The other issue with the images in the DR that brought this up is the masks, and I think those do have copyrights and therefore images are DWs.      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 14:00, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

If it's a photo focusing on the mask itself, that's possible. If it's a photo focusing on the entire person in public... I think that is kind of doubtful. Basically like the Ets-Hokin decision -- a photo of the entire bottle is not a derivative work of the label. In the Latimer decision, a photo of a motorcycle was not derivative of the copyrighted, painted design on the side of the motorcycle -- the definition of "derivative work" in U.S. law at least was narrower than that. Carl Lindberg (talk) 14:15, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I understand your reasoning, but I'm not sure I completely agree. Take File:Pulikali-2011-11.jpg, which was not one of the files in the recent DR. The focus of the image is on the mask and body paint of one man. He probably didn't do his own body paint, and he may or may not have made the mask, so we most likely have two copyrights, not one, but everything there is under copyright, so the image certainly focuses on copyrighted works. If the tiger were drawn on a wall, or a mannequin, it would clearly be an infringement, so I have trouble with the fact that the canvas is skin somehow makes it not.

I also don't agree with your application of Ets-Hokin to this, or indeed anywhere else in DW discussions. Since it is a complex case, I could well be missing something -- if so, please set me straight.

I assume we are talking about 225 F.3d 1068 (9th Cir. 2000) which is, I think, the first appeal. The reason that the image of the bottle was not a DW was that the Circuit Court found that the bottle was not copyrightable. The shape of the bottle was routine (the court did not note that it was made of expensive and unusual blue glass) and the label contained only text -- no graphics -- and therefore was not copyrightable either -- see the fourth and fifth paragraphs at C(2) The Bottle Is Not Copyrightable. The judge then went on to say that the question of whether the label was copyrightable was moot, because the image was of the bottle as a whole and not the label -- this is where you and others hang your hats. I think, though, that it would be a much stronger hat rack if the judge had found that the label was copyrightable, but, notwithstanding that, that an image of the bottle as a whole was not. I might even suggest that if the label had been copyrightable, then the case might have been appealed further.      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 16:42, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Right, the decision says exactly that -- it doesn't matter if the label was copyrightable, because the "underlying work" is the bottle itself, and the derivative works determination does not go further than that. Latimer v Roaring Toyz makes a pretty similar statement, though they found a way to skirt around actually making that ruling. That was a case about photographs of a motorcycle which had clearly copyrightable artwork on the side. The district court decision in that case was a pretty wide-ranging ruling which basically said that photographs in general were not derivative works of 3-D objects; the circuit court toned that way down but basically ended up in the same place as the Ets Hokin decision: Further weakening defendant-appellees argument is the fact that the ZX-14 motorcycles were the subject matter and primary focus of Latimer’s photographs. Latimer’s photographs can best be described as being “based upon” the ZX-14 motorcycles, useful articles not subject to copyright protection. The fact that Hathaway’s artwork appears in the photographs is merely incidental. However, we need not resolve the derivative work question if the photographs were made with Hathaway’s authorization. So there, again, the copyrightable artwork on the motorcycle was incidental to the photograph of the entire bike, and likely would not cause the photo to be deemed derivative, because it's "based on" the entire bike, not the artwork. As alluded to in the last sentence though, the court found a way in all the contracts surrounding the matter to find that the photographer had implied permission to photograph the work anyways, so they avoided actually making the ruling on derivative works, but the hint there is pretty strong. I'm not aware of a counterexample when it comes to situations like this-- there was a case of SHL Imaging a number of years back which went even further with a the photos-are-not-derivative-works-almost-ever route, but several rulings contradict that (including these two, one of which explicitly rejected the SHL Imaging logic as overbroad). They seem to be the best guidance we have, as the more conservative rulings on things like this. As for that photo above, yes, that blurs the lines. When the artwork is the entire covering, it's harder. But is the photo really there to depict the scene at a fair by giving an idea of the people around, or is there something in the actual artistic expression that makes the photo itself much better? The mask is in the dark, so I don't think it adds much, but yeah I could see a court struggling with the rest of it. Even with the above label vs bottle interpretations, there are tough questions -- is a picture of product packaging a photo of a box, or is it really just a copy of the artwork which takes up the entire surface of the box? So yes, it's not always clear-cut. But on the other hand, I'm not aware of a court case anywhere which *has* ruled something like this a derivative work. Photos of statues, yes, we can back that up when people complain about being deletionists. Deleting stuff like the above is harder to defend if we can't point to actual court cases which show a real danger. Photos like this are taken all the time, and if nobody in history has been convicted for it... well... Carl Lindberg (talk) 17:49, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you again for your patient review of these cases. As is often the case with copyright, what seems obvious is not always the case. I don't like depending on these rulings for this issue, but they're all we've got, so we're stuck with them. I wish I could see the Ets-Hokin image and the bottle -- it's still hard for me to grasp that a closeup of a whole wine bottle with an artistic label occupying most of the front of the bottle, is not DW of the art.      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 15:21, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

It may be more of what is the point of the photograph... the small details can make differences in cases like this. If the intent of the photograph was to focus on the label, or they are making some intentional use of the artistic expression in the label, things could go the other way. In both the above cases, the photographer was hired to take photos of the entire product -- whatever label or designs were on the surface were therefore clearly not a concern of the photographer's at all; they just happened to be there while the focus was on the entire product -- that's basically incidental. If someone is taking a picture of Mike Tyson, they are going get a facial tattoo in there whether they want to or not -- I don't think the tattoo artist suddenly gets derivative rights over every picture of Tyson from there on out. I think you're right that painting on skin doesn't automatically preclude copyright, but the nature of all the details of the situation can affect the outcome. I think there was a copyright granted to the facial makeup used in the play Cats -- but of course, those have explicit designs written down so the makeup can be applied the same way repeatedly to different performers and on different days as needed. On the other hand, particularly in the U.S., you have to file a copyright registration to get statutory damages, which is impossible in the case of most body art. If not, any infringement would be limited to actual damages, which I think means the artist would have to show how the photographs prevented him from being able to paint more people (as he presumably already received payment for that one). I know did some searches before; there is a bit at Commons talk:Licensing/Archive 32#FOP and body painting. From there, I did come across this paper where a lawyer looked into some of the theoretical issues. It does note a case where an advertisement photographer intentionally placed a pair of copyrighted glasses on the model (which was mainly to show off the clothes); this was deemed to not be incidental and not fair use. But, a photo of someone on the street who happened to be wearing those same glasses would probably be different, if the point of interest was the person themselves. With tattoos, the option to show them or not show them really isn't there. I recall a publication getting a public backlash over a photograph of Allen Iverson where they airbrushed all of his tattoos away -- that was deemed offensive to Iverson, as it seemed to by trying to alter his image in a way he may not have wanted, as his tattoos are apparently pretty important to him. You also might like s:The Background, written in 1911 ;-)

(smiling) Thank you for the story of M. Deplis. With all the subtleties of the American copyright law, and different subtleties in the laws of other countries, it is a wonder we get anything done here.      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 21:53, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	For patient explanation.      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 21:55, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Teamwork Barnstar
	for fixing some errors here. Philippe (WMF) (talk) 17:33, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Bridge names in Brest

I have added another question over bridge names in the village pump. (tread: Dating pictures)Smiley.toerist (talk) 23:17, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Commons:Coats of Arms

Commons:Coats of Arms seems to be fairly clear that the definition of a COA is not usually copyrightable, but then goes on to imply (if not actually state) that a COA redrawn as an SVG is fine if it is sufficiently different from any copyrighted representation of that COA (eg picture of it found on the internet) that it doesn't look like a derivative, but can be argued to be a new expression of that COA created from its definition. Which appears to mean: look at someones drawing/painting/photo of a COA, infer the definition of it, and then draw it and you will create a non-derivative, copyrightable, SVG. ("As soon as the change in the drawing is substantial enough, so that the original picture can't be identified, it is a derivative of the ... PD-definition", "Now, if you hurry to make a .svg version inspired of a to-be-deleted CoA, it's OK (check! easily indeed a copyvio): there is no "derivative rights" involved with coats of arms")

• Is that how you read the advice on that page?
• If so, do you agree that it may be practical advice, but not really the sort of thing we can legally suggest as adequate?
• Would it be to pedantic to change the wording to say that an SVG must be created only from a PD or freely copyrighted source, or from the definition?

Thoughts ? :-) --Tony Wills (talk) 11:58, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

It would be best if somebody only drew a version from looking only at PD sources, of course. That's not always realistic :-) A graphical work should never derivative of a written description (that is basically the epitome of "separate expressions of the same idea") so yes, coming up with a heraldic description, then drawing a new version based on that should be fine. Really, you should be able to just look at the image to see if any of its authorship is attributable to the other image, rather than just the general design. It doesn't really matter what the process was; it would be judged based on the similarity of the two versions. [The reason people will sometimes go to lengths to avoid even seeing the copyrighted sources, particularly when writing software, is that infringement is a combination of "substantial similarity" and access to the original -- if you can prove that there was no access, then any similarity is completely coincidental, and not infringement. It has been ruled that two people, each independently coming up with the exact same work, each have their own valid copyright.] For one example, there was an undeletion request over File:Coat of arms of Antigua and Barbuda.svg. I did not think that was derivative of versions seen here or here, however, I think it is derivative of the bitmap here (not exactly the same, but many small details were copied, regardless if it was traced or self-drawn to be similar). The SVG was kept, but only because that particular source bitmap appears to be licensed as {{NGW}}. If that determination ever turns out to be incorrect, then the SVG would have to go as well, I'd think. In general though, I think the advice is fine -- we can simply look at the two versions to see if they are "substantially similar" or not. If there are small details in the SVG which are really only present in a particular source bitmap, that probably means there is an issue. But if the SVG was different enough that no source bitmap can be identified, I'd think it would be its own original work. If there is a freely-licensed bitmap source, then subject to the license of that bitmap. Carl Lindberg (talk) 14:59, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi all - I am sure you don't mind my admitting that I am little bit confused by the differentiations being used here to describe the authorised use of coats of arms. Those that I was challenged about, were granted by the College of Arms so my exposition particularly related to that specific enquiry. It could become a vast subject in terms of law, if only that were the case! COAs were granted with the explicit intention of being used by or with/in association with their rightful bearers. Should anyone "redraw" any such image(s) so far as I glean from the argument above, please understand it is immaterial who drew the image (& were an artist to take the view that they "owned" the image they would be subject to legal challenge (under the laws of England and Wales, and therefore globally if said arms were granted there)) so long as that image is displayed properly, ie. by or in association with a rightful bearer of the said COA. Please advise if further clarification is required. M Mabelina (talk) 01:05, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
PS. upon further reading worth also seeing Revent's further comment below.

It matters to copyright law who drew it. It's still a copyrighted work. That person would have no right to display it in association with themselves, but they would still own the copyright. Just as who draws a COA is irrelevant to the bearer's rights that the College of Arms deals in, the bearer's rights are also irrelevant when it comes to who owns the copyright. They are two separate rights, and (depending on the situation) one or both may apply. Yes, if someone draws a coat of arms, it gives them no right to display it in association with someone, at least if there are heraldry laws in the jurisdiction of the use (or if trademark applies). That does not change the ownership of the copyright. It's possible someone else could use their drawing under a fair use guideline thus the use may not be actual copyright infringement, but Commons is particularly concerned if there is a *possible* use which could be a copyright infringement -- it is a database of media for use elsewhere, so they have a much weaker claim to "fair use" to begin with, and site policy forbids it anyways. Therefore, Commons is concerned if the copyrights simply exists. If it does, then it needs to be licensed, without exception. If a question of a legal "use" came up to the College of Arms, yes who drew it would not matter, but if a potential copyright infringement came up in a copyright court, it certainly would. Generally, Wikimedia projects are showing images in an educational context and would just be displaying an image to show what it looks like, which would likely not be a "use" in the way that would violate bearer's rights (there is no association claimed). But since Wikimedia Commons images are also made available for use anywhere, we do often add the {{Insignia}} template to indicate there are other rights (such as bearer's rights) which could come into play in other situations. Nothing here would authorize a "use" in the College of Arms sense -- we need to make sure only that it's OK in a copyright sense, where "use" has a completely different and unrelated meaning. Carl Lindberg (talk) 15:55, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Question

Re: the information you posted here, I think there's a problem with this. The license says it had no notice, but it's certainly visible in the original upload, and in the scan of the photo offered for sale. Thanks for any help you can offer, We hope (talk) 01:06, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Think there's also another one here, as it looks like a c in circle on the original upload. Again, thanks. We hope (talk) 01:10, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

First one is definitely a problem. That's a valid copyright notice. Second one... yikes. Is that an "O" or a copyright notice? The "O" in "CORP" has the top curling down inside a bit as well... that's pretty ambiguous. The compendium (Chapter 4) said that A variant of the symbol © will be acceptable only where it resembles the © closely enough to indicate clearly that the copyright symbol is meant. Not sure that one does. Is that "CR Corp" or "OCR Corp" ? Secondly, that Bergman image would have to have been renewed, so there's another (rather likely) possibility of PD status. I may leave that be, but nominate the first one. Carl Lindberg (talk) 01:29, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

I'll nominate the first one for deletion then. I think it's supposed to be c in circle CP-Columbia Pictures.Thanks, again! We hope (talk) 01:33, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

OK, that's a pretty good possibility. You'd have to find the renewal in 1967 or 1968 for copyright to still exist, though. Carl Lindberg (talk) 01:36, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

When I see something like that, I leave it where I saw it, sometimes with regret, but I leave it. We hope (talk) 01:43, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

copyright infringement of uncopyrightable derivatives

Hi, could you comment on Commons:Undeletion_requests/Current_requests#File:100_рублей_Путин-лидер_партии_жуликов_и_воров.jpg about my comment, on your comment :-). I am also wondering about extracting an image of a COA (original designed 1865) as it appears on a Google street view image showing a window of a building - If I cut out just the COA (not longer in copyright), I am not infringing Googles copyright? (I don't quite see how a 180 degree view taken by an automated system actually entailed any creative authorship by Google or it's employees but that is a different matter (and given Google's gross afront to peoples copyright by digitizing books without permision I don't think they have many moral legs to stand on, but that is a different, different matter ;-)). Thanks :-) --Tony Wills (talk) 12:30, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

You don't need that much to make something copyrightable :-) There would be little doubt on Google's copyright of their street view photographs. As for the COA... each drawn version can have its own copyright, regardless of when it was designed. Whether it would be considered derivative of the Google photograph, erm, if it was head-on and there is no surrounding context left in the crop, then that should be OK, at least in the U.S. If you can identify the source photograph though, perhaps not in some other countries. If you use the photograph as a reference to make your own drawing of the COA, such that the photo itself is not used at all, then the only issue is if your drawing copies copyrightable aspects of the COA representation seen in the photo. Google Books is pushing the limits of fair use, but it may be within them. Google since its very beginning has been indexing and copying the content of websites the world over without explicit permission; not a whole lot different ;-) Carl Lindberg (talk) 16:52, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I was simply thinking of taking a copy of [2] as evidence of which rendition (in the non CIA sense ;-) of a COA was in use in 2009, but yes even with close cropping there would still be elements of reflection from the glass which are particular to that photo. Ok, I will forget that idea :-) --Tony Wills (talk) 23:58, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

your opinion please?

You seem quite knowledgeable about copyright issues. Do you ever weigh in on copyright issues on the english language wikipediaʔ

I started a copyright related thread at en:Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#When should administrators decline to email the source text to deleted material?

Surprising statements made there triggered me to start two related threads. en:Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Copyright and cite templates, spelling and punctuation corrections en:Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#transmittal by email and the meaning of publishing

If you only have time for one, the last one might be the one you would be most interested in.

I would be interested in your opinion(s). Thanks! Geo Swan (talk) 20:34, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Heads up!

I have replied here: Commons:Undeletion_requests/Current_requests#File:.E0.A4.B2.E0.A4.BE.E0.A4.B2.E0.A4.BE_.E0.A4.B9.E0.A4.B0.E0.A4.A6.E0.A4.AF.E0.A4.BE.E0.A4.B21299.gif --Tito Dutta (Send me a message) 19:56, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Another heads up, same page! --Tito Dutta (Send me a message) 16:47, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Another reply has been posted which might be interesting! --Tito Dutta (Send me a message) 17:35, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Heads up, same page! --Tito Dutta (Send me a message) 16:25, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Section

A new reply, same page! --Tito Dutta (Send me a message) 05:01, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Precious

	Image licensing
	Thank you for your superb knowledge of image licensing, specifically jewelry and helping settle an issue at the Yogo sapphire FAC on en wiki! PumpkinSky talk 00:23, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Notice on paintings question?

Carl:
Do I remember correctly that under the old US law, the copyright notice on a painting did not need to include the (c) but could be just the artist's name and the date? Could you please give me a cite either way? Thanks,      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 15:14, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

It had to have the (c) (or the word "copyright", the abbreviation "copr.", or something unambiguously similar). It did not have to have the year though, as that was only required on certain classes of works. See {{PD-US-defective notice}}, and s:Copyright_Act_of_1909#sect18. Carl Lindberg (talk) 15:53, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

You have mail

Sorry for copying you in on an e-mail exchange without much context, but I thought you'd be a good person to consult. Let me know if you're confused, though. :-) Dominic (talk) 20:42, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Clarification request...

Hi...If a photograph is made of a painting in the public domain, is the photograph automatically in the public domain? My understanding is no, not automatically, but I thought I'd ask You re-characterized my File:K-21225.jpg on the painter. I did it on the photographer. Why are you more right? ☺ JMOprof (talk) 19:45, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

In the U.S., the photograph does not have sufficient creativity to support a copyright. See Commons:When to use the PD-Art tag, and the w:Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. court case. I should have used that tag, though. Or {{Licensed-PD-Art}}, since the photo is free as well. Carl Lindberg (talk) 19:56, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi Carl...we look to be double covered now ☺ Thanks.

PD text logo

Thanks for your quick answer above.

We you please take a look at Commons:Deletion requests/File:Minecraftlogo.png? C3F2k is giving me a hard time about it because it is a Swedish logo and the font may have a copyright under Swedish law. It is my understanding that we regularly apply {{PD-textlogo}} to logos, that, like this one, are simply text with nothing else. Is that wrong? Thanks,      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 14:01, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

We have looked at the laws of other countries -- the "pure letters" thing, regardless of custom fonts or not, is a U.S. thing. The UK seems to see if there are customizations to a font (though logos using a standard font, even if the font itself is copyrighted, seem to be OK). But even for that one in the U.S., I'd say it's not pure letters. There is a texture on the surface of the letters, which has arbitrary lines, which probably push it over the edge, and that is not related to the shape of the letters. I'm also not sure about the 3-D effect... though it's somewhat related to the shape of the letters, the depth and angles etc. may be separate decisions. In all the copyright office appeals decisions where they rejected logos and other graphic works, I don't recall seeing any with substantial 3-D effects yet, so I'm a bit wary on that alone, even though that is relatively simple 3-D effect. However, the license is not PD-textlogo, so I don't know why it was nominated that way -- it was a faulty nomination to begin with. It's listed as PD-author. There was some sort of discussion about the Minecraft licenses, but I can't remember how that turned out. Hmm..... from a search, probably should have been part of Commons:Deletion requests/File:Minecraft 1.1 Title.png. They had been kept numerous times before -- Commons:Village pump/Archive/2011/10#Minecraft images, Commons:Deletion requests/File:Enderman.png, Commons:Village_pump/Copyright/Archive/2011/12#Minecraft_screenshots, but enough nominations and I guess it will eventually succeed. It is an ambiguous license to be sure, and I'm not sure that PD-author really applies, though arguably it would be pretty hard to rip textures from this particular image (the main condition of the license). Carl Lindberg (talk) 14:49, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Based on your cites, including Commons:Deletion requests/File:Minecraft 1.1 Title.png which was just a few days ago, we should probably delete. None of them, though, address the issue of whether there can be a copyright in this is one word made from a special font. It's my experience that we do not delete single word logos that have no other copyrightable features, no matter how complex the font. Do you disagree?      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 15:18, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

That's correct. The word is not copyrightable, and the typeface (outline of the letters anyways) is also not copyrightable in the U.S. The squiggly lines on the top of the letters, on the other hand, most probably are. That is basically separable artwork on top of the utilitarian letters. The 3-D effect may also cause it to cross over the line; those are decisions (how deep, what angles) not truly based on the outline of the letters. That's fuzzier to me -- if it's a simple matter of repeating the same outline at the top and then drawing connecting lines without any perspective maybe that's not enough -- but I haven't seen a solid example of a 3-D effect logo be ruled non-copyrightable yet, so I haven't seen a legal basis on which to think those are uncopyrightable. There are several decisions though on custom fonts not mattering, even fanciful bubble-type fonts, but when it comes to textures on the letters, or other artistic effects which are not letter outlines, it can start to be different -- in that case there are other copyrightable features. In this case, if you remove the letter outlines entirely, and just have those squiggly lines on a gray background -- I think that's copyrightable. Carl Lindberg (talk) 15:34, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I see the squiggly lines as simply part of the font, as is the 3-D effect, but I defer to you on such matters. I (and others) will have to rethink our approach to PD-textlogo, as it is not as obvious as I thought. Thanks again.      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 15:49, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Teamwork Barnstar
	For your outstanding support and dedication in getting Yogo sapphire from a new article to DYK to GA to FA and FOUR. The team effort of the uncountable people involved in getting this unique article to FA is a textbook case of teamwork in article improvement, ie, what Wikipedia should be, not what it all too often is. I can never thank everyone enough. PumpkinSky talk 23:32, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Commons:Deletion requests/File:Kapara relief Gilgamesh winged sun.jpg

Hi Clindberg, this DR is an interesting case where we are discussing if {{PD-Art}} can be applied to photographs of bas-reliefs and/or if Bridgeman v. Corel applies in this cases according to US law. Your insight would be most welcome. Thanks and kind regards, AFBorchert (talk) 11:40, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Photos of photos

If a photo was taken in America of a person about 1960 and never published and a wiki user takes a photo of that photo, which is on the wall in a frame, is the photo the wiki person took free?PumpkinSky talk 23:06, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

No. If the original photo was unpublished through 2003, then its U.S. copyright lasts either for 70 years after the photographer dies (if they are known), or the earlier of 120 years from creation or 95 years from publication, whichever comes first. Carl Lindberg (talk) 23:49, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Question!

I have asked a license related question, can you add your opinion there? I want to become fully sure before uploading (bunch of) images in Commons! Commons:Help_desk#Indian_film_certificates_license.21 --Tito Dutta (Send me a message) 06:22, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Superseded images policy

Got it, I didn't know about that thanks. I don't really understand why this policy is strictly apply on basic stuff like File:Color icon orange.png where .svg is obviously better than .png, it just duplicate files for nothings and bring more mess on this project but anyway I'll apply it. I take care to remove the delete mentions and restore the inernal links but no needs to restore external's ones cause they're already superseded by better files. Thank you again for the intel and regards. V!v£ l@ Rosière ^{/Murmurer…/} 12:54, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Several reasons -- SVG may be better for our purposes, but not necessarily everyone's (they are fundamentally different media types even though the displayed result can look the same); the PNGs probably have been used in articles in the past, and keeping them preserves the article histories better, and often they are required to document the authorship history. They may seem silly to keep around, but they don't hurt much by being here. By all means, bury them in subcategories though :-) Carl Lindberg (talk) 15:37, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Commons:Deletion requests/File:Chevy Super Sport side2.jpg

Is there another issue here -- and with all images of concept cars? A concept car is typically not drivable (see Concept car) and therefore is not utilitarian. That would make it a copyrighted sculpture, would it not? .     Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 14:12, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

If you are talking about a clay model, maybe. Not even positive about that, depending on how it was designed -- may still just be industrial design. That particular one sounds like it has an engine and everything, so that sounds like a car. Carl Lindberg (talk) 01:57, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand "may still just be industrial design". I have seen a lot of concept cars, that, as the WP:EN article says, are not intended to be driven -- usually because the pieces are not really put together that well and they don't have important detail pieces, like brake and fuel lines. Since such a thing is not utilitarian, why doesn't it have a copyright? Or put another way, why isn't it treated like a 1:1 scale model, a toy? (My apologies for being dense, but you're very good at explaining difficult concepts, which, Lord knows, copyright is.) .     Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 11:05, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Some advice, please

Have run across quite a few "old newspaper files" photos from a photographer, Lee Pickett. In the 1920s he was the official photographer for the Great Northern Railway (US) and did extensive photos documenting the railroad's construction of the Cascade Tunnel in Washington State. Since he was working for the railroad, they appear to have distributed many of his photos to local papers in Washington State to publicize their project.

Some of the photos are identical to those online at UW (where the issue would be "fair use", the same problem as with the Otto Perry collection at Denver Public Library); UW has shared some of them at Flickr with "no known copyright restrictions" tags. Others I've found don't appear in either place, but can be dated by referencing one of the UW photos. (UW has the front of the train, I have the back of it, etc.)

My thought is that there would be no problem with the copies which are identical to the UW Pickett collection photos because by uploading both sides of the photo, it can be proven that the images weren't taken from the University. This looks to be a good opportunity for us to get some historic photos re: what it was like to be doing this in that era. Thanks, We hope (talk) 02:11, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

J.L. Richards Photo

Carl, thanks for taking the time to review the photo and copyright issues of J.L. Richards. Your comment supports 'Undeletion". I wholeheartedly agree. But it has been a week since the post, and nothing has happened. In addition, this is my first article and I don't know how to proceed. All I want to do is add his photo back to my article. Please help. Thanks. Jtlanghorne (talk) 12:59, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

PHOTO RESTORED TO ARTICLE 8/2/12 - HUGE THANKS!!! Jtlanghorne (talk) 12:28, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Commons:Deletion requests/File:Clifford-the-Big-Red-Dog-title-card.jpg

Hi Carl,

Could you give your opinion about the copyright status of this file? Thanks a lot in advance. Yann (talk) 06:42, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Helping with my images

I just wanted to thank you for fighting my corner with regard to the images that I have uploaded onto wikimedia, as I really appreciated it. I was wondering, if you might consider adding the images I have uploaded to their articles on wikipedia by any chance, I completely understand if you wouldn't want to, but I thought that I could add the images to wikimedia and you add them to their articles (Only if the images are licensed under the OGL of course haha), as I would be eternally grateful especially since many of the articles of these politicans currently lack any image at all, so with your help I would be able to rectify this problem. Kind regards Slytherining Around32 (talk) 17:45, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

westward the course of empire

thanks for the aoc image. however, you might want to consider the "for educational, scholarly, or personal (i.e., nonpromotional, nonadvertising) purposes." [3]. perhaps a fair use is warranted on en wikipedia. Slowking4⇔ †@1₭ 15:58, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

No, the image is public domain from a copyright perspective; no fair use is needed. The painting is PD, and the photo does not add any copyrightable expression ({{PD-Art}}). Secondly, the Architect of the Capitol is a federal agency, so the photo would be PD-USGov even if it was copyrightable. The restriction they refer to is more along the lines of trademark and/or personality rights -- you can't make a usage seem as though it has the backing of the U.S. government, or something like that. But any such restriction cannot be based on copyright; it must be based on other rights (if they exist). Carl Lindberg (talk) 16:03, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

i'm with you, it just seems like an NC ND restriction, although that's not what they did at flickr. we've been discussing with Smithsonian about their NC flickr restriction, so i'm overly sensitive. Slowking4⇔ †@1₭ 17:03, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Whatever restrictions there might be, they are Commons:non-copyright restrictions. Whatever rights they claim, they cannot be based on copyright, and our definition of "free" is specifically based on rights enforced by copyright. "Fair use" is only for when works are under copyright and we need to use the copyright fair use provisions; when there is no copyright, that is moot. The Smithsonian is a little different and thornier; while many of their employees are federal, not all of them are, and there is a decent chance that works done by those other employees are not public domain but rather have a valid copyright owned by the Smithsonian (and of course, private copyrights can possibly be transferred to the Smithsonian, which would remain valid). For photos of public domain paintings, we will typically use the template {{PD-Art}}, as our policy is to assume there is no copyright in the photo itself (backed up by court decisions). Whatever CC licenses may be present on Flickr are moot. Of course, if the Smithsonian does not want their photos uploaded regardless, it may be a good idea to respect those wishes anyways. For other types of photographs though, those licenses may be quite relevant. It'd be great to have access to those, but if the copyright legitimately exists, the Smithsonian may prefer to keep control -- that would be up to them. That's why I asked if the photos of the sculptures that we uploaded were done by federal employees -- that made the licensing easy, otherwise we would need a specific release. Carl Lindberg (talk) 17:32, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

well, some of these institutions upload their images with a NC ND license (for example here [4]. "You may not use the Content for commercial purposes." [5] they take a pic of a PD work and appear to restrict their photo of it. these are salaried people taking the scans. they are evolving in their upload position. - that verbiage "non-advertising, promotional" is confusing. is it house rules? are you saying that a gov't salaried person cannot restrict their work? do we know it wasn't a contract worker? i guess i'm inclined to defer but it will make an interesting conversation. Slowking4⇔ †@1₭ 00:07, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

If the painting itself is still under copyright (possible with that one), then that may well be an appropriate restriction. If not, then... en:Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp.. They can claim the restrictions, as I'm sure they are trying to protect a revenue stream (can't blame them), but it's unlikely there is any bite behind that bark, at least as enforced by copyright. As for government employees, correct, they cannot restrict their work (made as part of their duties anyways -- anything they do on their own time is of course theirs). The government can have other rights like trademark, or some other special laws surrounding particular emblems, so it's possible there is a problem if you use the image in an advertising context, and make it appear as though the Architect of the Capitol or the Congress is promoting a product or something like that, there could be an issue. And course things like classified documents are restricted by other laws. But they absolutely cannot use copyright as enforcement, which is the critical distinction on Commons. Some entities would prefer that no money be made by others based on their work, and while they have no real right to prevent it, they will try to claim all the vague rights they can to discourage such use. Not entirely sure what the AOC's issue is exactly, but they definitely would not want any private concern to make it appear they had some governmental backing. They may also want to protect something like the artist's moral rights (requesting that crops be so labeled); I can't imagine VARA could possibly apply but it is always possible in common law that a judge could feel a particular use was "wrong" and come up with some right (or invent a new one) which could cover a particular use. But there is no way that copyright covers it. Carl Lindberg (talk) 00:27, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

excellent. that 1934 exhibition was about the "Public Works of Art Project," where artists earned a salary from the feds. [6] lots of depression era murals, and art out there like this. confirmed verbally that those scans were by SI salaried people. i think restrictions are by "intellectual property controlling" institutions, hung over from before the cc license era. explaining at commons deletion could be fun; maybe a note at Licensing is in order. Slowking4⇔ †@1₭ 18:41, 16 August 2012 (UTC)