User talk:FlocciNivis/Archive 3
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--QICbot (talk) 05:18, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
Cemetery walls (seit 2014) --- Churchyard walls (seit 2021)
@FlocciNivis: Du hast 2021 die Category:Churchyard walls erstellt. Danke hierfür.
Ich wollte bezüglich der Unterscheidung zur Category:Cemetery walls fragen, die seit 2014 besteht, denn ich hatte Bilder entdeckt, die in beiden Kategorien drinstehen und die Wikidata Bezeichnungen könnten eventuell passender Formuliert werden.
Mit Cemetery walls ist Friedhofsmauer gemeint. Mit Churchyard walls sind Kirchhofmauern gemeint?
Über Wikidata ist Churchyard walls als "Mauer um einen Friedhof / Kirchhof" gekennzeichnet. Aber sollte es sich nicht nur auf Kirchhöfe beziehen, die sicherlich auch Friedhöfe direkt an Kirchen beinhalten können, jedoch nicht müssen (da die Kirchhofmauern teilweise nur Wehrkirchenfunktionen dienten; = Defensive walls).
Dementsprechend wäre vielleicht die Formulierung "Mauer um einen Kirchhof" besser?
Gruß -- Triple C 85 | User talk | 07:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hallo @Triplec85,
- Ich hatte mich damals bei dem Erstellen der Kategorie vor allem an Wikidata orientiert, bin aber auch schnell darauf gestoßen, dass Churchyard walls auch oft Cemetery walls sind. FlocciNivis (talk) 10:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Ich stimme deinem Vorschlag mit der Umformulierung auch zu. Aber ich denke es wäre gut, wenn wir noch eine Meinung von jemanden bekommen würden, der sich mit Kunstgeschichte oder Architektur auskennt. Vielleicht haben die Begriffe dort ja eine exakte Bedeutung. Auf Denkmalseiten scheinen sie jedenfalls eher synonym verwendet werden. eventuell könnte es ja sogar sein, dass Kirchhofmauern eine Subklasse von Fiedhofsmauer sind.
- @AnRo0002 Kannst du hier vielleicht helfen? FlocciNivis (talk) 10:42, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Okay.
- @XRay, L. Beck, Granpar, Im Fokus, and Atamari: Zur Kenntnisnahme (weitere Meinungen). Meiner Meinung nach ist es so:
- wenn ein Friedhof z.B. außerhalb des Ortes liegt, bzw. ein Friedhof ohne Kirche, jedoch mit Mauer drum herum, dann ist es eine reine "Cemetery wall".
- Besteht um eine Kirchengebäude ein Hof mit Mauer, dann ist es ein "Churchyard" (Kirchhof) bzw. Category:Churchyard walls (Kirchhofmauer).
- Wenn in einem Kirchhof gleichzeitig Gräber sind, also ein Friedhof um die Kirche herum, direkt angrenzend, innerhalb einer Kirchhofmauer, dann ist es gleichzeitig eine Churchyard wall + Cemetery wall (beides!)
- Was meint ihr?
- Gruß -- Triple C 85 | User talk | 10:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hallo zusammen,
- grundsätzlich waren die Kirchhofmauern immer zugleich Friedhofsmauern. Die Toten wurden schon in der Antike in oder neben Sakralbauten beigesetzt. Erst im 19.Jh. entstanden Friedhöfe, so wie wir sie heute kennen. Nur in seltenen Fällen befindet sich heute noch der Friedhof direkt um die Kirche. Da würde ich einer doppel-Kategorisierung zustimmen (s.o.). Oft sind es noch Epitaphe, seltener einzelne Grabsteine, die an den früheren Friedhof um die Kirche erinnern. Besteht also noch eine Kirchhofmauer so war sie in der Regel zugleich Friedhofsmauer. Im übrigen würde ich die Mauern einer Kirchenburg nicht als Kirchhofmauern sondern als Wehrmauern bezeichnen (meist befand sich aber auch da der Friedhof innerhalb der Mauern). Gruß anro (talk) 11:59, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hallo @AnRo0002, danke für deine Antwort.
- Eine Rückfrage hätte ich noch. In Wikidata kann man ja sagen, dass ein Item eine Unterklasse eines anderen ist. Würdest du jetzt im Fall von einer Kirchhofmauer sagen, dass sie eine Unterklasse von einer Friedhofsmauer ist? Oder würdest du die beiden Begriffe komplett parallel lassen und wie oben genannt dann die Doppelnennungen machen (es geht ja auch in Wikidata, dass ein Item Instanz zweier Klassen ist), wenn die Mauer im Jetzt-Zustand als beides fungiert. In dem Fall wäre es dann imo noch sinnvoll beide Begriffe mit einem "different from" statement zu verbinden. Das wird z.B. benutzt um zwei ähnliche Begriffe oder Objekte, die oft verwechselt werden, zu kennzeichnen.
- Und ich nehme mal an die Mauern einer Kirchburg wären dann auf jeden Fall Unterklassen von Kirchhofmauern und Wehrmauern zur selben Zeit? Also praktisch eine Kombination beider Begriffe. FlocciNivis (talk) 12:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hallo @FlocciNivis,
- Nein, wenn man nicht mehr sieht, dass es im Kirchhof je einen Friedhof gab, was höchstens durch eine archäologische Untersuchung festgestellt werden könnte, dann ist die Kirchhofmauer für mich keine Unterklasse der Friedhofsmauer. Ich kenne zwar kein Beispiel, aber möglicherweise gibt es auch Kirchhofmauern, die nie oder nicht mehr nachweisbar einen Friedhof enthielten. Und im Fall von Kirchenburgen, gibt es da überhaupt entsprechende Kategorien? Diese Mauern halte ich jedenfalls nicht für eine Unterklasse von Friedhofsmauern, da sie Grundverschieden sind: Die Kirchhofmauer ist oft mit einem Bocksprung überwindbar, die Kirchenburg ohne Belagerungsmaschinen nicht. Ihre mauern gehören für mich nur zu defensive walls. Gruß anro (talk) 12:53, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- @AnRo0002 Gut! Ich denke in einem Fall, dass eine Kirchhofmauer mal eine Friedhofsmauer war, aber nicht mehr ist, reicht es vielleicht auch aus, das in Wikidata mit einem "end date" qualifier einzutragen.
- Was die Kirchburgen angeht würde ich argumentieren, dass wie in de:Kirchenburg erwähnt, eine Kirchenburg eine Befestigung um einen Kirchhof (englisch churchyard) ist und es sich deswegen auch um eine Art von churchyard wall handelt bei der Befestigung einer Kirchburg.
- Auf Wikidata scheint es jedoch bisher so gehandhabt zu werden wie du es vorschlägst. Es gibt dort extra die Klasse Kirchhofbefestigung (wikidata:Q98141380), die Unterklasse von wall, church building und defensive wall ist (wobei das erste wall redudant ist imo). Diese Klasse wird auch schon von einigen Objekten instanziiert... So zum Beispiel wikidata:Q98583017 und wikidata:Q98743271.
- Die Kategorien gibt es hier noch nicht, wie ich das sehe, aber etliche Kategorien für einzelne Kirchhofbefestigungen. Da könnten wir ja die passende Überkategorie erstellen und sie mit dem Wikidata Item verlinken. FlocciNivis (talk) 15:58, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Ich kenne auch noch grave yard als Friedhof um eine Kirche. --Granpar (talk) 12:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Granpar Danke dir für die Anmerkung. en:Cemetery und en:Graveyard (disambiguation) haben zu der Begriffsunterscheidung auch noch etwas input, wie ich gerade sehe. FlocciNivis (talk) 12:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Wie lässt sich das noch unterscheiden?
- a) Friedhof mit Mauer, jedoch ohne Kirche nebenan, als "Cemetery" mit "Cemetery wall".
- b) Wenn ein Friedhof um eine Kirche, jedoch keine Mauer hat, wohl nur ein "Graveyard".
- c) Wenn ein Kirchhof mit Mauer jedoch keinen Friedhof hat, wohl nur ein "Churchyard" (mit "Churchyard wall")
- d) Wenn ein Kirchhof mit Mauer und Gräbern/Friedhof innerhalb der Mauern besteht, dann ist es wohl ein "Churchyard" (mit "Churchyard wall") sowie gleichzeitig durch die Gräber ein "Gravecard" (mit "Cemetery wall")?
- :-)
- Gruß -- Triple C 85 | User talk | 12:45, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Guten Abend. Das klinbgt doch so sinnvoll. Ich kenne mich damit nicht aus, müsste dann aber wohl meine Bilder umkategorisieren. Halte es dann noch für sinnvoll, diese Info in die Kategorie zu schreiben, dass andere Nutzer die Unterscheidung auch nachvollziehen können. Gruß Lukas Beck (talk) 18:49, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Granpar Danke dir für die Anmerkung. en:Cemetery und en:Graveyard (disambiguation) haben zu der Begriffsunterscheidung auch noch etwas input, wie ich gerade sehe. FlocciNivis (talk) 12:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Noch ein Gedanke: Friedhof mit Mauer kann auch bedeuten, dass es sich um einen muslemischen oder jüdischen Friedhof handeln kann. Also deswegen kann es sich nicht um ein Synonym zu "Churchyard wall" handeln. Mir sind auch Kirchen bekannt, deren Grundstück mit einer Mauer umfasst sind aber es nicht um Friedhöfe (bzw Kirchhöfe) handelt. --Atamari (talk) 13:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Guter Gedanke bzw. gute Einwände. Das spricht beides (verschiedenen Religionen, Kirchhöfe ohne Friedhof) dafür, "Churchyard walls" nicht als Unterkategorie von "Cemetery walls" zu führen. -- Triple C 85 | User talk | 14:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Ja, meine Schlussfolgerung aus der Diskussion ist auch, dass wir die beiden Begriffe getrennt halten sollten. Und dann Mauern, die beides sind, unter beiden Begriffen zu kategorisieren, wie z.B. Category:Friedhofsmauer (Heilig-Kreuz-Kirche Fröttmaning).
- Ich denke, es wäre dann auch sinnvoll in beide Kategorien einen entsprechenden Hinweis einzubringen. FlocciNivis (talk) 16:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Ich habe derweil mal die bisher unsortierten Bilder der Category:Churchyard walls nach 4 Ländern und innerhalb Deutschlands nach 3 Bundesländern sortiert.
- @FlocciNivis: Hinweise (de-Beschreibungen und einen Verweis auf die jeweils andere Category mit "cat see also") habe ich angebracht.
- Daneben in zwei Wikidata Objekten beschrieben und jeweils die Aussage "verschieden von/nicht zu verwechseln mit" (--> mit dem jeweils anderen Datenobjekt) ergänzt.
- Gruß -- Triple C 85 | User talk | 18:22, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Triplec85 Supi, danke dir :-) Ich habe jetzt mal die Kategorie Category:Churchyard fortifications erstellt und sie auch schon etwas befüllt. Ist aber noch in work-in-progress. Jetzt wo ich einige Beispiele für Kirchhofsbefestigungen selbst gesehen hab, muss ich @AnRo0002 hier zustimmen und sagen, dass es wohl weniger sinnvoll ist, diese als Unterkategorie von Kirchhofsmauern zu sehen, sondern auch eher als etwas Paralleles mit anderer Funktion.
- Ich stocke nur etwas bei Category:Kirchhofbefestigung (Eibelstadt). Für mich sieht dies eher wie eine Kirchhofsmauer aus, ist auch als das in Wikidata vermerkt. Der Name ist jedoch Befestigung und auf [1]https://geoportal.bayern.de/denkmalatlas/searchResult.html?objtyp=bau&koid=141446 ist es geführt als beides FlocciNivis (talk) 19:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Und ich habe hier mal ein SPARQL statement vorbereitet, welches Wikidata items mit commonscat sucht: https://query.wikidata.org/#SELECT%20%3Fitem%20%3Fcommonscat%0AWHERE%20%0A%7B%0A%20%20%3Fitem%20wdt%3AP31%20wd%3AQ40211238%20.%20%0A%20%20%3Fcommonscat%20schema%3Aabout%20%3Fitem%20%3B%20schema%3AisPartOf%20%3Chttps%3A%2F%2Fcommons.wikimedia.org%2F%3E%20.%0A%20%20%0A%7D
- Selbiges lässt sich natürlich auch über die Wikidata ids für cemetery walls tun FlocciNivis (talk) 21:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Gratulation, die Runde scheint mir zu einem qualifizierten Ergebnis gekommen zu sein. Hatte die Diskussion gestern nicht auf dem Schirm. So bleibt mir nur eine Anmerkung zu Category:Kirchhofbefestigung (Eibelstadt): abgesehen davon, dass m.E. die deutlich übermannshohe Mauer den Wehrcharakter gut erkennen lässt, liefert der erste Absatz der dankenswerterweise in diese Kategorie eingestellten Seite aus "Die Kunstdenkmäler des Königreichs Bayern - Stadt und Bezirksamt Ochsenfurt" den entscheidenden Hinweis: "Die Kirche war mit einem befestigten Friedhof umgeben .... Östlich von der Kirche steht auch noch ein Torturm ....". Das war sicherlich deutlich mehr als eine normale Umfriedung, die nur die Würde des Ortes sicherstellen sollte.
- Gruß an alle -- Im Fokus (talk) 07:19, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
- Super. Stimme Im Fokus zu. Die Gemeinsame Diskussion bzw. gute Einwände (AnRo, Atamari u.a.) haben uns hier weiter gebracht um es besser zu kategorisieren.
- @FlocciNivis: Für die Category:Churchyard fortifications könnte auch die Category:Fortified churches in Germany durchforstet werden, ob es darunter Bilder gibt, welche primär die Befestigungsmauern zeigen.
- Und @FlocciNivis and AnRo0002: : Könnte Category:Churchyard fortifications auch in Category:Defensive walls einsortiert werden?
- Gruß -- Triple C 85 | User talk | 07:29, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Triplec85 Sehe nichts, was dagegen spricht. Diese Wehrmauern dienten, wie es der Name sagt, der Abwehr (vor allem marodierender Gruppen von Soldaten, Söldnern, Banditen), waren also Verteidigungsmauern. -- Im Fokus (talk) 08:07, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Triplec85 Das mit dem Durchforsten der Kategorie klingt sinnvoll. So wie es momentan ist, ist Bayern noch etwas überrepräsentiert, was die Kirchhofsbefestigungen angeht.
- Das liegt übrigens, wie ich das sehe, daran, dass @Derzno alle/viele Objekte der Bayrischen Denkmalplattform nach Wikidata importiert hat. Er hat in meinen Augen hier einen tollen Job verrichtet.
- Dementsprechend gibt es aber auch noch viele Churchyard walls/fortifications in Wikidata ohne Bilder. Ich würde euch alle darum bitten, diese einzusetzen, falls Bilder in commons vorhanden und euch das auffällt. Manchmal wäre es auch gut, das Label und die Description zu überarbeiten und eine commonscat zu kreieren.
- Finden tut ihr diese Wikidata Objekte meist als Teil (property "has part") von dem Haupt-Denkmal (meist Kirche oder Friedhof) zu welchem die Mauer gehört. FlocciNivis (talk) 11:10, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
- Guter Gedanke bzw. gute Einwände. Das spricht beides (verschiedenen Religionen, Kirchhöfe ohne Friedhof) dafür, "Churchyard walls" nicht als Unterkategorie von "Cemetery walls" zu führen. -- Triple C 85 | User talk | 14:19, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Noch ein Gedanke: Friedhof mit Mauer kann auch bedeuten, dass es sich um einen muslemischen oder jüdischen Friedhof handeln kann. Also deswegen kann es sich nicht um ein Synonym zu "Churchyard wall" handeln. Mir sind auch Kirchen bekannt, deren Grundstück mit einer Mauer umfasst sind aber es nicht um Friedhöfe (bzw Kirchhöfe) handelt. --Atamari (talk) 13:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:23, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:26, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:25, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:20, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
File:20180915 Parc de l'Orangerie 01.jpg has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.
If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue. Please see Commons:But it's my own work! for a guide on how to address these issues. |
Mike Peel (talk) 07:23, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:21, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:14, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:22, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:22, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:18, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:21, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:20, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
Fehlbestimmung von File:20220715 Palafoxia.jpg
Hallo FlocciNivis/Archive 3, ich habe keine Ahnung, wie Sie zu der Meinung kamen, dass der auf diesem Bild abgebildete Korbblütler eine Palafoxia sei. Das ist eine Gattung aus dem südlichen Nordamerika, bei der es zwar offenbar ein paar mit deutlich strahlenden Randblüten gibt, aber das sind dann Zungenblüten. Die Pflanzen auf Ihrem Bild haben am Rand vergrößerte, sterile Röhrenblüten. Das sind gärtnerisch "veredelte" Kornblumen (Centaurea cyanus) mit rosaroter Farbe, wie man sie häufig in Blühmischungen findet. Auf Commons gibt es erstaunlich wenige dieser Farbvarianten, aber z. B. File:Centaurées.jpg und File:Spring Scene (258275665).jpeg zeigen so etwas. Ich bin gerne bereit, alles zu korrigieren sowie den falschen Dateinamen korrigieren zu lassen und dann meine Stimme auf Commons:Quality_images_candidates/candidate_list#File:20220715_Palafoxia.jpg zu entfernen, falls Sie das möchten. Ansonsten können Sie das natürlich gerne auch selbst erledigen. Mit freundlichen Grüßen --Robert Flogaus-Faust (talk) 13:39, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Hallo @Robert Flogaus-Faust, ja das war ein Fehler meinerseits. Ich habe selbst schon ein bisschen gesucht, seitdem Sie meine QI Nominierung kommentiert haben, bin aber selbst zu keinem Schluss gekommen. Die Blumen waren Teil einer Bienenaussaat nahe eines Feldes. Da ist es ja gut möglich, dass es ein Cultivar war.
- Ich stelle das jetzt richtig. Vielen Dank für das Feedback!
- Viele Grüße FlocciNivis (talk) 13:47, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:18, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:20, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:17, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:21, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:21, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:12, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:16, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:16, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:23, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:23, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:28, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:23, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:23, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:22, 26 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:25, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:24, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:25, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:20, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:22, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:23, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:25, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:20, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:26, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
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--QICbot (talk) 05:24, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
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