Template talk:VN

Use on categories

Categories are generally in English (except categories using this template). To make it easier to find the English language name, I'd change the format to either (1) display the English version in the title bar (possibly right aligned) or (2) display it once more at the beginning of the list, or (3) highlight the English version. -- User:Docu at 11:17, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I prefer (3) highlight.

Could you do the same for the user's language? => both the user language and english version will be highlighted.

Thanks Liné1 (talk) 11:48, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I tried (3).

To highlight the user's language, a change in/variation of MediaWiki:Gadget-MyLangNotify.js (available in Special:Preferences/gadget tab) might work. -- User:Docu at 16:34, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Not sure this is a good idea; I don't think (despite being English myself) that we should appear to favour English over other languages. I'd rather go back to having them all equal. - MPF (talk) 19:44, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

I just noticed that I forgot to add the namespace check. It should be limited to categories: done now. -- User:Docu at 19:53, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Ok, for avoiding to favour english, but what about to favor the user's language ? Liné1 (talk) 07:49, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

That would be good if it can be made so that it shows for a user's chosen language, but it preferably shouldn't have a default language set (i.e., a person who does not have a user page would not see a default language highlighted). - MPF (talk) 08:53, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Categories are really meant to be in English. It's a bit confusing that some aren't despite there being a English language term for the concept. -- User:Docu at 09:02, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

In biology, we try to avoid english by using scientific names or latin. English is not needed Liné1 (talk) 12:47, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if most readers can do much with Latin names. Otherwise, we'd probably have more complaints about animals with Latin plant names from a batch upload. --  Docu  at 20:25, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Male, female, etc.

Is it useful to add {{VN}} to subcategories such as Category:Aix galericulata (male)?  Docu  at 20:25, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes of course. The current VN of Category:Aix galericulata (male) seems perfect. Liné1 (talk) 06:21, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Catalan name in bold letter

I see the catalan name in bold letters (see Equus caballus, for example). I've checked the code and I can't find any difference with code for other languages.--Pere prlpz (talk) 09:43, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

This is a new feature: VN displays in first position + in bold the name for your language. In my case, the french name Cheval is first and in bold. Cool, isn't it ? Cheers Liné1 (talk) 09:56, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

OK. Merci.--Pere prlpz (talk) 11:38, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

vernacular name (in english) ≠ nom vernaculaire (in french) in links

nom vernaculaire = folk taxonomy ; vernacular name or common name = nom vulgaire ou nom commun ; on Wikidata... donc à corriger (par expert) soit dans le template VN, soit dans le Wikidata (parce que ce n'est pas très clair tout ça) Minerv (talk) 00:03, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

VN peut contenir aussi bien des noms vernaculaires ou des noms normalisés ou des noms vulgaires.

Comme il n'existe pas de nom francais decrivant les trois, 'noms vernaculaires' est tres correct.

Cordialement Liné1 (talk) 00:55, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Bonjour Liné1, je ne parlais pas de la traduction (vernacular name se traduit bien par nom vernaculaire), mais des liens (titres dans différentes langues de la boîte VN) vers Wikipedia qui pointent presque tous vers en:Common name, sauf fr (manque Nomi comuni vers it:Nome volgare ; de:Vernakularname au lieu de -Name in den verschiedenen Sprachen- peut-être). J'ai trouvé les discussions à propos des noms vulgaires/vernaculaires (INRA (2013) contre Québec (1987)), de toutes façons ces noms n'ont aucunes reconnaissances (sauf pour certains dans les dictionnaires), cela restent des noms vernaculaires (Manuel de rédaction scientifique et technique, Aix-Marseille Université, 2013-2014, p. 26). Je voulais juste comprendre pourquoi 'folk taxonomy' au lieu de 'common name', Minerv (talk) 15:35, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Euh, la raison de ma confusion est tu parles d'interwiki stockés sur wikidata sur la page de discussion d'un template commons. Pas beaucoup de rapport.

J'ai regardé le problème wikidata et ca semble trop compliqué pour moi.

Amitiés Liné1 (talk) 13:34, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

African languages

Addition of the Bemba language (bem) and Ndebele (nr, nd) will be appreciated, besides any other African languages with a fair number of speakers. JMK (talk) 11:11, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

With pleasure.

But neither http://bem.wikipedia.org nor http://nr.wikipedia.org nor http://nd.wikipedia.org work.

VN work with wikipedia interwiki short key.

Could you look at https://www.wikipedia.org/ and tell me the short key you are interested in ?

Cheers Liné1 (talk) 19:36, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Wikidata link?

It is very confusing (at least to me) about how to fix the problem highlighted by the "(Note: no wikidata item is associated with this category)" message. What does " (From wikidata's Interwiki and wikidata's Label when they are different from scientific name(s). Scientific name(s) are commons pagename and wikidata property P225)" mean, and how does this interact with Wikidata's limitation of only allowing one page per wiki. Consider this encouragement to improve the docs. JesseW (talk) 05:56, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Hello JesseW

Working with Wikidata is quite complex. I will gladly help you with your first steps.

1. I don't think that {{VN}} documentation is the place to explain Wikidata link to Wikicommons.
   • I tried to document this process in User:Liné1/sandbox2 but found it too badly written.
   • I clearly am not a worthy documentation writer.

   Feel free to modify User:Liné1/sandbox2, as it is not yet public.

2. I totally agree that the sentense "(From wikidata's Interwiki ... and wikidata property P225)" is not clear. Mostly because it is too short.
   • wikidata's Interwikis = In a wikidata element, the list of links to the different wikipedia pages
   • wikidata's Labels = In a wikidata element, the list of short label for each language

Cheers Liné1 (talk) 19:26, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, the linked page does help -- I think my more specific question is: What to do about the case where there is both a Commons gallery AND a Commons Category, and the gallery is already linked to the Wikidata item? JesseW (talk) 01:55, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Also note, the category is linked from the item, just via a Property, not via an Interwiki link (which is how the gallery is linked). This apparently isn't picked up... JesseW (talk) 02:01, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Hello JesseW

Now I understand your problem: what to do with wikicommons species category when there is only one item on wikidata.

I also hate the current choice they made. The problem is for species but also for genera because on fr.wiki categorie for genera are forbidden.

Maybee the solution is to have 2 items. The category item would created only for its link to the article item.

I created wikidata:Q19922018 for Category:Ambystoma mexicanum.

But I don't see any interwiki in Category:Ambystoma mexicanum ????

In the past, the fr interwiki came first from the wikidata iteam, but if there was none, they took the fr interwiki of the associated wikidata items.

Did they change that ?

Cheers Liné1 (talk) 10:06, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

refs cause misformatting

Some pages use refs for the name, e.g. Carex echinata:

{{VN
|en=Star Sedge<ref name="bsbi">[http://www.bsbi.org.uk/html/database.html BSBI Database], retrieved on 2009-01-02</ref>
|sl=bodičnati šaš<ref name="FloVegSi">[http://bijh.zrc-sazu.si/BIO/SI/FloVegSi/BIS/Flora/SLV_TaxData.asp?Code=270 ''Carex echinata'' Murr.] at FloVegSi, retrieved on 2009-01-09</ref>
}}

It works fine when there is no Wikidata link for the language like sl, but for en on Carex echinata the template tries to make a piped link and the result has ugly UNIQ...QINU strings in Wayfaring-tree[1]. It's caused by mw:Strip marker#Strip marker exposure:

• "Using <ref> in a piped link will expose the strip markers. [Bugzilla: 25417]"

A search finds more examples. It seems that either the template should say refs are disallowed and existing refs should be removed, or the template should detect refs and not include them in a piped link. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:28, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Hello, I will investigate this.

Regards Liné1 (talk) 06:53, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Corrected Liné1 (talk) 21:24, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. It would be ideal to keep the piped link and place the ref outside the link but the main thing is to avoid the UNIQ...QINU crap, and the language links are in the sidebar anyway. PrimeHunter (talk) 18:27, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Wikidata

Why not use the same translations/interwiki links from the wikidata item that is attached to the gallery page for categories when no wikidata item exists for the category? This would be better than saying "no wikidata item is associated with this...", no? I was going to add a translation (to wikidata once I could figure it out) but realized the work is already done but links to Commons gallery instead. Voxii (talk) 18:33, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Pretty much I would this by default. Voxii (talk) 04:23, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello @Voxii:

This is the true problem of the strange link they created from wikicommons to wikidata:

Category:Phyllopteryx taeniolatus has no wikidata access because the only wikidate item existing is associated by Phyllopteryx taeniolatus.

So on Category:Phyllopteryx taeniolatus, {{VN}} has no way of determining Q1120403.

That is why I implemented useWikidata=Q1120403.

There is no way to do it automatically (Except if I missed something ?)

But I am waiting a bit before using useWikidata=Q1120403 too much, in case the link between wikicommons and wikidata change.

Just for you to know, Category:Syngnathidae is linked to Q7150233 which describes a category item. But {{VN}} also find its associated article item Q213534. {{VN}} extracts translation from both. Cool, no ?

Cheers Liné1 (talk) 14:06, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

If you can do that then it seems to me like there's a way to query a wikidata item for something other than the page it's on. I thought that's what was meant when they turned on "arbitrary access" to wikidata. For example, if no wikidata item exists for category, remove the "Category:" part from the name (and the other way around for galleries, although I'm sure that's not common) and pull that data. Like a fallback. Wikidata is a bit confusing for me. Voxii (talk) 22:05, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello @Voxii:

Let us take the example of Category:Syngnathidae: it is linked to Q7150233. Therefore, I can access Q7150233 and get property P301 (category subject) that contains Q213534. With "arbitrary access", I can query Q213534 as much as I want (And I already do it ;-).

I case of Category:Phyllopteryx taeniolatus, I have no access to wikidata! Doing a research could return be bad items.

But we could ask for help on last point.

Cheers Liné1 (talk) 07:29, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Simply, the problem is that we can query any item, but we can’t find an item by sitelink (i.e. Commons page name), only by Wikidata item ID. --Tacsipacsi (talk) 17:34, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Ok, now I understand how {{VN}} extracts both. The data is already linked on wikidata's end. Yet, I don't understand why there isn't a why to do it by name, a random ("arbitrary") string. The ability already exists there locally. For example, input "Syngnathidae" on wikidata and your taken directly to wikidata:Q213534, yet wikidata:Syngnathidae doesn't. I get why automatic cross-wiki use like that would return incorrect matches for most cases (language and disambig issues), but still, it would be very useful in some cases. Anyway, for now it could be solved by a bot by grabbing the id from wikidata and adding it to {{VN}}, or if IDs are to be avoided, the names could be added directly and managed similar to how interwikis were previously (something wikidata I thought was meant to solve). Voxii (talk) 21:36, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

The more I look into it the more I see this has been a major ongoing issue for Commons and it's unique dual-namespace situation. Hopefully, they'll give us a way to fix the category/gallery issue soon. Voxii (talk) 22:48, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello @Voxii:

Yes, there is a major ongoing issue in the connection between wikidata and wikicommons. Many wikicomons categories will never have a wikidata item! I also hope that they will change that.

Cheers Liné1 (talk) 07:28, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

@Liné1: , thanks for helping me understand how the taxonomy templates work and for all the work you have been doing in biology area (most species categories I see have been edited by you or your bot at one point, and every related template has been). Wikipedia benefits greatly from it. Cheers, Voxii (talk) 09:28, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Display

When a Wikidata ID is known, please display the ID, like {{Wikidata}} does (thereby making it unnecessary to use that template alongside this one); or at least an icon linking to the Wikidata page, like {{Creator}} does. Andy Mabbett (talk) 15:53, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello @Pigsonthewing:

{{VN}} already displays "[modify wikidata] [modify other wikidata]" (See Category:Syngnathidae)

Tell me if that is enough. Otherwise I could display "[modify wikidata Q7150233] [modify other wikidata Q213534]"

Or would you prefer "[modify wikidata (for category)] [modify other wikidata (for article)]"

Cheers Liné1 (talk) 12:48, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

As stated, I'd like to see the ID ("Q12345", or whatever); failing that the icon. Andy Mabbett (talk) 21:18, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello @Pigsonthewing:

I did some changes. Look at {{VN}} in Category:Syngnathidae and Category:Acentronura gracilissima

Cheers Liné1 (talk) 07:54, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

That's great, thank you. Andy Mabbett (talk) 18:57, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Making VN collapsible

On some article and categories, there are so many vernacular names that the box pushes images entirely off the first page (see, e.g, Category:Panthera tigris sumatrae). Users comes to Commons to see images, not to learn about subjects. I am concerned that people will come to such crowded pages and then give up and not scroll, especially on mobile devices.

One possible solution is to make VN collapsible. We can add a parameter |collapsed= to allow editors to collapse the box when there are amny vernacular names. The default would be uncollapsed, so that current behavior is maintained. See {{VN/testcases}} to see the sandbox where I made VN collapsible (using {{Collapse}}).

What do other editors think? — hike395 (talk) 14:05, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

 Done --- didn't seem to be any objection — hike395 (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree with you partly. Further supplements I consider necessary.

By the way, I would welcome for reasons of fairness to wait with more changes until user:Liné1 is back from holiday.

{{VN}} is a big part of his great work here. Orchi (talk) 16:25, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

af

I rolled back the edit, because it seems that left-aligned 100% width HTML tables on Commons eat the section header immediately afterwards:

<table align=left style="width:100%"><tr><td>Text</td></tr></table> ===Test===

produces

Text

Test

So I need to fix this. — hike395 (talk) 02:53, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Later -- I fixed it in {{VN/sandbox}}. I am also about to go on an extended wikibreak, so this may have to wait until August. — hike395 (talk) 03:17, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Vernacular name identical to scientific name

I have the following problem:

• the vernacular name for Rosa in Italian is exactly "Rosa"
• when I added this vernacular name to Rosa, it was rejected by the template, based on the assumption of a mistake (red warning: "Error: Parameter it uses scientific name") - but it was not a mistake!
• is there a way to bypass this check (e.g. by adding a special keyword)?

--Rdelre (talk) 11:19, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Hello Rdelre

No, there is no way to bypass.

Most botanical genera are called by the 'normal' public by their scientific name (Geranium, Ficus...)

We could have a debate if these names are also a vernacular names (in addition to being a scientific names)

But in all cases, it is not the purpose of {{VN}} to say that in 150 languages, geranium are called geranium.

I think that we can almost consider that in all languages a genus can be called by its scientific name (Worst case scenario, it would be snobbish).

By the way, I think that in Italian rosa mean the flower, not the whole genus. It would be 'rosaio' that would describe the whole genus ? (not sure)

Best regards Liné1 (talk) 11:49, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply, but I think the case is different.

Italian (+Spanish and Portuguese) did not take the name of the gender as a common (but scientific) name; on the contrary, the vernacular name "rosa" can be tracked down to Middle Ages ("rosa" is the flower but also the plant, "rosaio" is a rose garden). The original latin name for the plant ("rosa") changed in neolatin languages to "rose" (French) but also remained unchanged in Italian, Spanish and Portuguese. Long after this, Linnaeus decided to use just the same latin word for the genus.

The same issue affects a few other cases, e.g. Malva (which is "malva" in vernacular Italian, Spanish and Portuguese). It is a pity that these cases cannot be managed properly.

Anyway, thank you for your explanation and best regards to you too.--Rdelre (talk) 20:56, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Colon

A recent edit placed a space between the language and colon. That may be correct for some languages, but for most it is incorrect. JMK (talk) 16:50, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Hello JMK

I also see a double space after the colon: "English :  Wild Turkey, Turkey"

Do you have any idea when this change appeared ? Because I don't think I changed anything like this on purpose.

So I need a bit of help on this.

How was it before ? "English: Wild Turkey, Turkey" ?

I think it is also not good for half languages.

Or was it different for each language ?

Cheers Liné1 (talk) 18:44, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, until about two weeks ago it was "English: Wild Turkey, Turkey", for all languages. (I notice that I did not answer you above in 2014, apologies, don't always check changes) JMK (talk) 18:51, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Hello JMK

are you familiar with CSS stuff?

Here is the code I generate for years:

• English: Wild Turkey, Turkey
• français: Dindon sauvage

As you can see, It seems that CSS biota or hlist have changed.

my nbsp seems the cause of the double space.

Cheers Liné1 (talk) 19:01, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

It now looks like: "English:Wild Turkey, Turkey", so a space behind the colon will be appreciated, but its not an urgent matter. JMK (talk) 20:35, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Pages in Category:Pages with script errors

Template:VN triggers errors that send several pages to Category:Pages with script errors, in pages like Phasianidae or Otididae. Any chance the underlying issues can be fixed or error reporting removed? --Jarekt (talk) 12:23, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Hello Jarekt

I made it on purpose to detect errors.

Sadly, I don't know if other contributors correct those errors when they see them.

You can look at Category:Commons biology maintenance that contains under sortkey E (for empty) all the categories containing pages in error. The pages you are talking of are placed in Category:Pages with biology property incorrect on Wikidata.

I try to correct those errors every day. A sad work.

so yes, they will perhaps be corrected one day.

Cheers Liné1 (talk) 14:42, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Liné1, there are still some issues caused by {{VN}} at Centropus with the template reporting that "The time allocated for running scripts has expired". Can you see if you could fix the template or the page. Thanks. --Jarekt (talk) 12:25, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Same issue with Meropidae --Jarekt (talk) 20:02, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

More compact display

This template takes a lot of space in some pages (see for example Medicago sativa). Is there a way to only display the most useful ones for the user, in the same way that the Compact Language Links do it? The RedBurn (talk) 07:49, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Hello The RedBurn

I understand the problem.

But I see no easy solution:

• The page you gave me is quite complex

What I can do:

• limit each language to few names (In Medicago sativa, en has too many names)

Best regards Liné1 (talk) 14:21, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

I've tried the |collapsed=1 parameter on Category:Arthropoda... to no avail. Chaoborus (talk) 16:10, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Hello The RedBurn

collapsed is a very good idea. Sadly, I don't see any trace of this parameter in {{VN}} code. It should be easy to implement/reimplement. Sadly I am not good in HTML nor CSS. Perhaps someone else could help on this. Liné1 (talk) 08:47, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

@The RedBurn, Liné1, and Chaoborus: This problem is increasing as some wikidata users are adding ever-increasing long lists of obscure, little-used and outdated vernacular names, and also multiple variants of a single name based on different capitalisation or hyphenation of parts of the name (e.g. Grey-feathered Foo, Grey-feathered foo, grey-feathered foo, Grey Feathered Foo, Grey feathered foo, grey feathered foo, Gray-feathered Foo, ...). Could the VN template be adapted to pick up only the first name for each language, or only the first two names, rather than every one? That way the VN list would not be so long that you have to scroll a long way to get to the image files. - MPF (talk) 23:15, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

This template is based on Module:Wikidata4Bio, I left a message there.

A way to only show needed languages would be for MediaWiki to allow access to browser requested language, already available to mw:Extension:UniversalLanguageSelector (see wgULSAcceptLanguageList in browser page source). A Phabricator issue could be created to request adding it to the Extension:Scribunto/Lua_reference_manual#Language_library. There may be issues with caching though. The RedBurn (talk) 08:10, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

@The RedBurn: - thanks! I'm not looking for a way to reduce the number of different languages visible (it is useful to be able to see a taxon's name in many languages), but to cut the number of variant names per language (see e.g. the ridiculous number of names listed as the Spanish name for Chenopodium album) - MPF (talk) 08:28, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Error with Wikidata property 'instance of' (P31)

Hello, in Category:Forests you can see:

Error in Wikidata: wikidata item 'forest' (Q4421) has no property 'instance of' (P31)

Is property P31 really necessary (A Forest is an example of an ecosystem), is not property ‘subclass of’ (P279) (A Forest is a type of an ecosystem) enough? Regards --W like wiki ^{good to know} 22:02, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

@W like wiki: Probably it’s not necessary, but what’s certain is that {{VN}} has nothing to do there. From the very first sentence of the documentation:

Use this template on a taxon (ONLY TAXON) category or gallery

—a forest is, as you mentioned, an ecosystem, not a taxon. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 18:52, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

@Tacsipacsi: ok, I see, thank you! --W like wiki ^{good to know} 14:58, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

No links to nanwp and yuewp

for example Category:Bombax ceiba, names "Bân-lâm-gú: Ka-pòa-chhiū" and "粵語: 木棉花" dont link to nanwp and yuewp articles, probably because of their unusual langcodes. RZuo (talk) 19:24, 16 November 2023 (UTC)