Template talk:Technique

Archives /archive

User friendliness vs efficiency

I find the "color" parameters rather confusing. Another system would be to use {{Title without disambig}}. It works and since adjective parameters have been so far used mostly by bots, I dont think the transisition would cause much confusion. But it is really slow. See Template:Technique/pl/testcases ? Is it worth implementing ?--Zolo (talk) 11:51, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Under

Would it be possible to add a 'under' parameter, with the same use as 'on'? It's much more natural to mention 'luster paint under transparent glaze' than 'transparent glaze on luster paint' for instance. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 10:08, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

The template is rather complex, with about 30 languages than need to be kept in synch. So I dont think it is worth adding new parameters unless they are used in more than a few dozen files. For this particular case, I think {{technique|luster paint}}, {{technique|glaze|adj=transparent}} is okay. --Zolo (talk) 12:23, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Not exactly: underglaze and overglaze painting are two different techniques. If adding a new parameter is too complicated I'll just stick to using 'on'. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 13:49, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Right. Would adding "overglaze" do ?--Zolo (talk) 09:31, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

I will add 'underglaze' and 'overglaze' as adjectives, but we can't use two adjectives, can we? So a roundabout is still needed when we need two adjectives, as in 'overglaze metallic luster-paint'. And it doesn't work when we need to specify the type of glaze, such as transparent, opaque or metallic. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 11:18, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

The template could be tweaked to accomodate more than one adjective per noun - I dont know if this would be useful enough to justify the increased complexity --Zolo (talk) 12:57, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

lithographic prints

When an institution describes an object as a lithographic print, does that make it a print or a lithograph? I tried print with lithographic as an adjective (adj=) and it came back red-linked.Laura1822 (talk) 16:35, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

We have lithograph, chromolithograph, and photolithography. See Template:Technique/list for full list. --Jarekt (talk) 17:16, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I've been studying that list. Is "lithographic print" considered a "lithograph"? This is a fundamental cataloging question: I don't know if there are other, non-print forms of lithographs, or if all lithographs are prints. But even if they are, it seems to me that we should follow the usage of the experts at the institution I'm copying the data from, and describe it as a "lithographic print." What do you think? Laura1822 (talk) 19:50, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I do not know anything about "lithographic prints" vs. "lithographs", but if you or someone do the research (or someone who actually know the difference) and establish we either need to add "lithographic prints" or change "lithographs" to "lithographic prints" then we can change the current version. all you have to do is to add it to Template:Technique/en, Template:Technique/list and hopefully some other language(s) one is familiar with. --Jarekt (talk) 02:40, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Photographic negatives

What about photographic negatives? There are a lot of them on glass as well as on film. Laura1822 (talk) 16:34, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

You are sure busy today Laura. We have photograph, silver albumen photograph and few others but no "photographic negatives". Do we have any "photographic negatives"? --Jarekt (talk) 17:20, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry, I haven't felt brave enough to post my questions till now, so they seem to be overflowing.  :) Here is an example of a file I worked on yesterday that is a plate glass negative from LoC: File:ADM Louis M. Nulton, ca. 1915.jpg, and here's a somewhat random one from a search: File:Philip K. Wrigley 1917.jpg. I also found this one that appears to be in very good order: File:Mathew Brady, Portrait of Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase, officer of the United States government (1860–1865).jpg, though on closer look it is not using the Technique template at all. Plate glass negatives generally pre-date film negatives, and can be made with several processes, though I think the most often used is colloidal silver. When negatives are imaged to be shown online, they are usually reversed so that they appear positive. Laura1822 (talk) 19:46, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes we should add them, see previous section for details. --Jarekt (talk) 02:44, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Adjectives for support other than color?

The institutional description of the file I'm working on reads: "Watercolor with gouache and graphite on medium, slightly textured, cream wove paper." Using the template with "Technique|watercolor|and=gouache|and2=graphite|wove paper|coloron=cream" I can get the result "watercolor, gouache and graphite on cream-colored wove paper." It's missing the adjectives "medium, slightly textured" referring to the paper (if I add them it's red-linked). Is there no field for adjectives for the medium? Laura1822 (talk) 22:25, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

New adjectices can be added. I think the main problem is to have several adjectives per non. It would require some upgrades in the template, and it is already rather complicated. I would say that when the technique description does not fit into the template, it should be provided in plain text (without templates). --Zolo (talk) 08:50, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Of it can be simplified to match the template, or both. Sometimes artwork's have paragraph long technique descriptions, That could be interesting to some but in many cases short concise description in your language is all that is needed. --Jarekt (talk) 02:28, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Editing

I am currently working (offline) on an overhaul of the two pages Template:Technique/en and Template:Technique/list, in order to make sure that each term listed on each page has a corresponding entry on the other. I've never worked on a template before and I think I have figured out the proper syntax, though when I'm finished I would appreciate someone who understands how things work give them a second pass to check syntax, etc.

My question now is that I came across "carved" in the /list file. I think this belongs on the adjective list instead, even though the rest of the adjectives are about color. There is not a corresponding entry for it on the /en page but there is one on en/adjectives. It does not appear on the adjectives list on the main template/doc page. So I moved it there. Is that right? It seems not, since the "output" field is empty. So if not, where does it properly belong?

This reminds me, I've been meaning to ask about adjectives. The /list file of course has many items listed with their adjectives. The adjective list seems limited to color. Is this by design? If the adjective list is indeed supposed to be limited to color (and I was wrong to put "carved" there), shouldn't it be renamed color instead of adjectives? And if it's not limited to color, then shouldn't most of the adjectives in the /list file (like all the different woods, papers, panels, boards, stones, etc.) be split so that the basic noun is on /list and all of the adjectives come from the adjective list? Wouldn't this simplify things? Even now, with colors, we have "black chalk" on /list even though "black" is on the adjective list and and "chalk" is on /list. I have a feeling I'm missing a design parameter here. Laura1822 (talk) 18:19, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I thought I understood the syntax and correspondence between these two files, but I don't. There is an entry in /list for chalcedony|bloodstone|heliotrope=chalcedony but in the /en file the separate lines for the latter two show bloodstone as bloodstone and heliotrope as heliotrope. Shouldn't they both be chalcedony? What is the underlying logic? Laura1822 (talk) 21:17, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for taking on this task, it periodical needs to be done. The underlying logic is that it is hard to control chaos, and since the template is being edited by a lot of editors and many of them are confused about it, the result is that there are many issues which are often hard to fix. Several users more familiar with the programing spend a lot of time trying to make the template as clear as possible, but it is still quite complicated. And the English is the simplest of them all since most terms do not need to be conjugated or depend on "gender" of each noun. Look at other languages to see the usual cases. The adjective list is for all adjectives, and I agree we should not have "black chalk", the only exception would be adjectives that only go with one noun, like Indian ink. If you make a list of the corrections that need to be done than we can tackle them one by one. As for chalcedony|bloodstone|heliotrope, I agree that there is a discrepancy but I do not know if all those words should be replaced with "chalcedony". --Jarekt (talk) 04:33, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I think specific entries for "indian ink" and "black chalk" are needed because they refer to a specific concepts (a black chalk is not just a chalk that is black, see http://www.getty.edu/vow/AATFullDisplay?find=black+chalk&logic=AND&note=&english=N&prev_page=1&subjectid=300080058 ). As for "carved" I do not know while it is in the /list file (it isn't in the /en version).

I am not sure to follow you about the bloodstone problem. I see it as transformed to "chalcdedony" in both /en and /filelist. As for the general structure, there seems to be two possibilities, either one separate line for each input term:

|bloodstone = chalcedony

|chalcedony = chalcedony 

or join all synonyms on the same line:

|bloodstone|chalcedony = chalcdeony

We should choose one format. I prefer the former, as it keeps the alphabetical order and is much easier to deal with in Excel, but the second one looks a bit nicer in the /list page. --Zolo (talk) 08:42, 16 November 2013 (UTC)Zolo.

Happy to defer to someone else's judgment for things like "black chalk" (Zolo? you forgot to sign). I suppose the operative determiner should be how it's translated, which leans more closely to concept than word-for-word. In some other language "black chalk" might be a completely different term unrelated to "black" or "chalk," or at least not those equivalent words put together.

The chalcedony discrepancy isn't in /en and /file (which one is that?) but in /en vs. /list. In /list I see, for example:

<tr><td> bloodstone</td><td>{{technique/{{int:lang}}|bloodstone}}</td></tr>

<tr><td> chalcedony</td><td>{{technique/{{int:lang}}| chalcedony}}</td></tr>

<tr><td> heliotrope</td><td>{{technique/{{int:lang}}|heliotrope}}</td></tr>

Do you see something different?

And in /en I see:

| bloodstone = bloodstone

| chalcedony|bloodstone|heliotrope=chalcedony

but no separate entry for heliotrope, so since what shows in the rendered table is bloodstone | chalcedony, can I infer from that that the last entry controls when there is a conflict?

As for "carved," and adjectives, the /doc file states that the parameter "adj" applies only to "the first material" and "adjon" is for "color of support" so perhaps what I am really suggesting is a whole new parameter to allow for a list of adjectives to be interchanged freely with a list of nouns. While this would be more elegant it might not be simpler. Nonetheless I still think that "carved" does not belong in a list of nouns. I will add a noun, "carving," but I don't think this solves the underlying problem.

Also I think I missed something significant because when I put "carved" into the "Lists of supported terms" in the table of Adjectives in /doc, nothing shows in the second column.

This editing job is pretty big and it's probably going to take me several more days. I am working offline and when I'm ready to upload will try to remember to check for any new edits. Jarekt, I appreciate your explanation and I am glad that I seem to have the energy right now to try to bring some order out of chaos. It has always been completely overwhelming before. Laura1822 (talk) 21:19, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

(I've added the signature to my edit). Yes, if a term is repeated in a "#switch" list, only the last occurrence is used, and the repeated "bloodstone" is an error. I've fixed the doc file so that "carved" is now shown.

Actually, thinking about it, it may be better to convert the template into Lua, and that way we could automatically generate the list without the need for a separate /list file :]. --Zolo (talk) 08:42, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Now THAT would simplify things!  :) In the meantime, are the quotations from /list I cited above proper usage? Thanks for the clarifications and fix. Laura1822 (talk) 15:10, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

How would we store all the translations? Some big translation table (more like a spreadsheet than database) which than can be read by Lua code maybe. --Jarekt (talk) 17:29, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I think we can use the same method as what is currently, just a bit more harmonized across languages.

now:

argyrotype = {{#switch:{{{query|}}} |#default=argyrotyp |L=argyrotypie |gender=ms }}

lua:

argyrotype = {default = 'argyroptyp', l = 'argyropypie', gender = 'ms' }

Perhaps with centralized tables to specify the sytnax:

on_case = {en = 'default', pl = 'l'} </nowiki>

I have tried an English list at Module:Technique/en (but somehow, I can't get it sorted in Template:Technique/list/sandbox)--Zolo (talk) 18:21, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I've suspended my editing to avoid duplication of effort. I'll keep an eye on your progress. Thanks for taking it on! Laura1822 (talk) 17:48, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok, the English version should more or less work, but translations require additional work. It seems better to fix some general internationalization issues first. I hope the new template will be functional by the end of next week. --Zolo (talk) 10:02, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Fantastic, you are amazing! No rush, though. BTW I just clicked on Category:Unsupported technique and there are 867 files! Wow! Laura1822 (talk) 20:16, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Lua version

The Lua version sort of works in English and Polish. No major change in output, but some in the organization of the code, so I'll list themm now to make sure I make nothing preposterous:

• Template:Technique/en and Template:Technique/en/adjectives are merged into Module:Technique/en.
• I've tried to move as much as possible of the complexity out of the /lang modules to (not sure how much I succeeded)
• Synonyms have been moved to Module:Technique/synonyms: "watercolour" is transformed into "watercolour" there. Yes, that is one more page to maintain, but that also substantially decreases the length of the language specific pages. That may also make it easier to map the template onto Wikidata or external databases. --Zolo (talk) 17:25, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
• Polish regular adjective declensions have been moved to Module:Declension. For irregular adjectives, that is done in Module:Technique/pl, though that is rather unwieldy.
• Error messages look weird, but that's not voluntary :]

Does that sound ok ? Jarekt, could you check that the Polish version makes sense ?

Note that help will be needed for the conversion of older pages in Lua. Part of it can be done semi-automatically, but I do not know how to handle synonyms automatically. That is transform |watercolor|watercolour= watercolor into ['watercolor'] = 'watercolor', ['watercolour'] = 'watercolor' (let alone remove "watercolour" as it is a depracated synonym). --Zolo (talk) 17:25, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Few comments on Module:Technique/pl code (I did not run it yet):

• I would suggest using full variable names like "p.adj" -> "p.adjectives", "sing" -> "singular", etc. They are longer but easier to remember and less confusing.
• regular polish adjectives should be 'czarny' instead of 'czarn' and the ending should be stripped and replaced as needed. Otherwise it is quite confusing.
• the terms I would keep in {N = 'yoko-e', L='yoko-e', gender='f'} order instead of {N = 'yoko-e', gender='f', L='yoko-e'}
• we still have synonyms in the code like ['kakejiku|kakemono'] =. I assume those have to be removed.
• ['drawings'] = {N = 'rysunki', gender=mp, L='rysunkach'}, seems to be missing quotes around "mp"

I think we need some lua code to be used for maintenance, like:

• sorting entries and returning code snippets to replace existing code,
• generating list of missing terms for each language in fill-the-blanks format,
• testing consistency between languages
• displaying list of supported terms, etc.

I will look more at Module:Technique/pl. --Jarekt (talk) 18:07, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. It seems that something got wrong when I tried to convert the list into Lua table, I'll look into it. I have created a quick function for detecting gaps and inconsistencies: [1]. I'll make the other changes you suggested tomorrow. --Zolo (talk) 22:49, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I have (kernel of) an idea going in a little different direction. May be we can keep the translation tables not in Lua format but as a CSV file that is than parsed by Lua. Those files would be easier to work with and we can have an Lua code to add English entries that need translation. May be even have some link to open those CSV files in Google online spreadsheet (if possible)? --Jarekt (talk) 05:12, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

That is fine with in principle, though I am not completely clear on how the csv should be structured (or how the csv-> Lua translation should work) given that different languages seem to require a different number of fields (just the label in English, label + locative etc. in Polish). --Zolo (talk) 09:21, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking about using en:Module:CSV assuming that input can be a file. --Jarekt (talk) 18:32, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I find it clearer to have a table, because the fields are not the same in all languages, but I think we can work on a CSV file and create a simple module to convert it. --Zolo (talk) 10:20, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Just an idea, I don't know if it is currently possible: Why not fetch the translations from Wikidata? Add in the Lua code only the English name and the Wikidata item, like, "Watercolor" = Q50030. Would save a lot of time for translators and the translations are up-to-date. Raymond 12:45, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

For now it is impossible because of bugzilla:47930. But when the bug is solved, it sounds like a real question. That would provide us with potentially many more translations, but that would not give the grammatical fine-tuning (like "schwarze Tinte" / "schwarzer Stein"), at least not until the Wiktionary switches to a Wikidata-like format. Not sure of what is better (I think we already have translations for the first language of more than 80% of users). --Zolo (talk) 13:01, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Can we streamline the list ?

The list of possible values provided in Module:Technique/en is really long and hard to translate (see [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Technique/maintenance?uselang=pl Polish missing translation for instance).

• Some terms like "artwork" or "example" have been removed from the English list and I assume they can be removed from other languages too, but should we have other guidelines about acceptable values ?

• Can we split those ?

1. fine-grain marble -> adj: fine-grain + marble (as fine-grain can apply to other minerals)
2. medium-grain marble -> idem
3. coarse-grain marble -> idem
4. others ?

• Material objects. We have values like "accumulator" (any idea where it is used?). That may make sense as some artistic creation may be made of material objects, but that's potentially endless. I would propose to store them in {{I18n/objects}} and to make the template to default there when no value is found in Module:Technique. Not sure of what to do with the material + object case, like in "gold thread"

--Zolo (talk) 12:53, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

 Support I think any clean up you can do would be appreciated. --Jarekt (talk) 18:33, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

bronze

medium QS:P186,Q34095

What should we do with {{Bronze}}? It seems to parallel {{technique|bronze}}. --Jarekt (talk) 18:44, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Silverpoint?

I see it is unsupported here but not sure which parameter should accept it. Danny lost (talk) 16:23, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

parameter ”1“ required?

Is there any reason to flag parameter ”1“ as required? If no lets change it! Thanks, --Marsupium (talk) 05:57, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

It makes no sense without it and AFAIK it does not show anything without it. --Jarekt (talk) 13:28, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

One should e.g. use {{technique||panel}} → on panel when one does not know if tempera or oil was used. (And it's a better formalisation than {{technique|panel}} → panel

medium QS:P186,Q106857709

.) --Marsupium (talk) 13:52, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

PS: I just found a real case here. --Marsupium (talk) 22:27, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Some techniques are left?

What is with all the computer drawing techniques is that only drawing?? -- Perhelion (talk) 13:33, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Sanguine/red chalk

I would like to change "sanguine" to equal "red chalk," or duplicate it to include both. (Right now it lists "sanguine = sanguine" and "red chalk" is not in the list at all.) "Sanguine" may be use in the English Wikipedia article title but I didn't know what it meant and "red chalk" is what I see in descriptions from places like Christie's and Sotheby's.

I would make the change but it's been so long since I tried working on this template that I've forgotten how, and maybe others have differing opinions anyhow.

The description I am working from is French, and I have translated into English using Google Translate and guessing but I haven't tried to put it into the template yet:

Sanguine, pierre noire, crayon de graphite et glacis d'aquarelle sur papier vergé blanc très fin; rehaussé au verso

Black chalk, red chalk, graphite pencil, and watercolor glaze on white fine laid paper; enhanced overleaf

A similar one is:

Pierre noire, sanguine, crayon de graphite, aquarelle, glacis de gouache blanche et lavis de sanguine sur papier vergé blanc très fin; rehaussé au verso

Black chalk, red chalk, graphite pencil, watercolor, white gouache glaze and red wash on white fine laid paper; enhanced overleaf

Corrections? Is "lavis de sanguine" a red wash? (Google calls it a blood wash.) Google translates "rehaussé au verso" as "enhanced overleaf" and I thought it might mean that it had some kind of support on the back, but I found another translation of it as "heightened with color on the verso." Is there a better phrase more commonly used in English?

Back to the template, what is its status? Has it been migrated to Lua? Where should edits be made?

I get confused by this template sometimes but I really appreciate that it exists because I enjoy working on artwork metadata and descriptions so much.

Hope y'all are well. Laura1822 (talk) 09:00, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

(Better late than never I guess) “Lavis de sanguine” is a red chalk wash. “Rehaussé au verso” refers probably to highlights on the other side of whatever support is used (e.g. sheet of paper), but words seem to be missing here. In my opinion this description is too complicated for the “technique” field and should feature in the “description” field. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 18:00, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Photochrom prints

Can someone that understands how this template works please add 'photochrom print'? The enwiki link would be to en:Photochrom... WikiData gives several articles for other languages as well. Thanks. Revent (talk) 17:56, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

adjand2 doesn't show

"{{Technique|1=watercolor|and=tempera|and2=color|adjand2=red|on=paper|mounted=wood}}" should be "watercolor

medium QS:P186,Q22915256

, tempera

medium QS:P186,Q175166

and red color ...". but it doesn't work. "adjand2" doesn't show. What's my mistake? Greetz! Bukk (talk) 12:09, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

== "adjand2" doesn't work properly == (merged both sections — Speravir (Talk))

Hi, the parameter "adjand2=" doesn't work properly. Example: {{technique|adj=black|chalk|and=brush|adjand2=brown|and2=ink|adjand3=brown|and3=wash}} should give (in German): "schwarze Kreide, Pinsel, braune Tinte und braune Lavur", but the adjective "braun" in front of "Tinte" is missing. "adjand3=" is ok. What's wrong with "adjand2="? Greetz! Bukk (talk) 08:35, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Also see my remark above. Bukk (talk) 08:36, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

me too, see File:Peony - Huang Shen.jpg --shizhao (talk) 09:40, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

@Bukk and Shizhao: Fixed, it was a missing pipe sign. — Speravir_Talk – 21:51, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Only Lua retrieval of lexemes missing for migration of the data to Wikidata

Now that senses are supported on Wikidata we should have the grammatical background to migrate the data to Wikidata, only Lua retrieval of lexemes needed and an inverse property of item for this sense (P5137). What was missing for Module:Technique to be deployed? Does anybody know? --Marsupium (talk) 16:53, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Cover other production techniques beyond paintings?

So far the range of possible parameters is oriented towards paintings and related techniques, similarly so in c:Category:Multilingual_tags:_Techniques. However, what about sculptures or medals (in the numismatic sense, not military)? Right now, only the material can be specified here, e.g. {{technique|silver}}, but not whether the medal has been cast (in a mould) or struck (between dies like a coin) which makes a significant difference; yet other techniques apply to larger sculptures e.g. crafted from marble.

I would welcome a technical comment whether and at what sort of effort such extension is possible structurally, and what is required semantically, e.g. in the above example, translations of cast and struck in so many languages, or whatever? -- Thanks in advance, HReuter (talk) 12:54, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

@HReuter: From the perspective of template coding a lot is possible, that shouldn't be the problem. I'd like to keep alignment with Wikidata (there the property fabrication method (P2079) exists) and perhaps AAT (it would be nice if descriptions here can be mapped to attributes or "Processes and Techniques" there) in mind. Internationalization with Wikidata would be the goal for this template as well I think since much more languages can be supported that way.

But how exactly should that the information you think of be displayed? You don't think that would fit in the "adjective" parameters? Could you give examples for the natural language expressions for combined and complex techniques, perhaps in different languages? I think that would be the first step for implementation. Cheers, --Marsupium (talk) 19:34, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

@Marsupium: I fully agree to your Wikidata / internationalization goal. In my "medals" example, I guess only those made from metal (even if that's the majority overall) need the possibility to distinguish between struck (geprägt, ... coining (Q1894248)) and cast (gegossen, ... metal casting (Q10956917)); this could be handled, please, by permitting the latter two as "adjective" values. I find that gold (Q897), silver (Q1090), copper (Q753), bronze (Q34095), brass (Q39782), tin (Q1096) are already valid as "parameter 1"; but please add bismuth (Q942), perhaps other metals whenever a specimen occurs in practice.

In contrast, other (if more exotic) materials used in medalling, such as gypsum (Q82658), porcelain (Q130693), porcelain stoneware (Q2780343), terracotta (Q60424), would each have their single way of processing; so these materials should please just be made valid as "parameter 1" whereas no adjective is needed here.

I would expect also proper sculptures could be handled this way, and e.g. marble (Q40861) is already a valid "parameter 1".

So I would request just the a.m. small value extensions to be made, which solves the issue at hand without leading into a dead end -- thanks! HReuter (talk) 00:26, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

@HReuter: For now, I've added "struck". "cast" was already there. "{{technique |metal |adj=cast |lang=de}}; {{technique |metal |adj=struck |lang=de}}" now gives: "gegossenes Metall; geprägtes Metall". The nouns have still to be done. Best, --Marsupium (talk) 21:00, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, @Marsupium: I have used "adj=cast" on the 4 pictures in c:Category:Medaille_60_Jahre_Kölner_Münzfreunde_(Maya_Graber); would still appreciate adding "bismuth" as valid param1, plus the possibility to add more than one adjective to the same param1, in this case {{technique|bismuth|adj=cast|adj=patinated}} or {{technique|bismuth|adj=cast|adjand=patinated}} as in patina (Q428352), which currently is beyond specification. Trusting this is not just a selfish ad-hoc wish but can also be useful for other cases, HReuter (talk) 12:06, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

@HReuter: I've added "bismuth" now, sorry for the delay!

I think it is a good idea to allow more than one adjective per noun.

The parameter names you propose don't work: If "adj" is given twice, only the lasts value can be evaluated by the template. And "adjand" is already in use for an adjective to the noun of "and". And we should keep in mind that it should also be possible to give more adjectives to the "and2" etc. nouns, so something like "adjand2", "adjand2-2", "adjand2-3", …; "adjand3", "adjand3-2", "adjand3-3", … …? It's perhaps not self-explanatory. Or we can give all adjectives for one noun in one parameter separated by e.g. ";", so in your example: |adj=cast;patinated? Do you have a better idea? Thanks in advance!

It will make sense to replace the template's code with Lua using Module:Technique in the medium term and to implement that functionality there. And since the module is still work in progress it may take some time to make this possible unfortunately. Beste Grüße, --Marsupium (talk) 14:13, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Deprecation and replacement of a bunch of noun terms

Hi everyone, I'm working on making the Lua port of this template work and aligning the mappings with Wikidata. During this I've stumbled upon a bunch of problematic noun terms. I'd like to do this:

1. add pages where problematic terms are used to Category:Pages using Template:Technique with deprecated term (already done for the terms below)
2. replace the problematic terms with a proposed alternative (done for some)
3. remove the problematic terms from the mappings in the language subtemplates like Template:Technique/en

This concerns the following terms:

Term	Search	Reason for deprecation	Replacement
acciaio	search	non-English term	"steel"
aquatint (sepia)	search	noun-adjective combination	split into noun "aquatint" and adjective "sepia"
art	search	misuse of Template:Technique, not used	–
artwork	search	misuse of Template:Technique, not used	–
asbestos	search	mapped to material this one is only part of, not used	–
ash	search	ambiguous: Template:Technique/fr thought the remains of fires ash (Q152079) was meant	"ash wood" seems to be correct for all current use cases
biscuit	search	in many languages mapped to something like biscuit porcelain, but not all biscuit is porcelain	probably "biscuit porcelain" for most cases
bisque	search	same
bisque (pottery)	search	same
black ink	search	noun-adjective combination	split into noun "ink" and adjective "black"
blood jasper	search	meaning unclear (probably same as "heliotrope"), not used	–
brown ink	search	noun-adjective combination	split into noun "ink" and adjective "brown"
bucchero	search	not a technique, not used	–
cable	search	ambiguous, not used	–
canvas panel	search	unclear, what was meant in already moved cases was canvas on panel or similar stuff for which the "mounted" parameter is made	–
carton	search	ambiguous: "cardboard" (d:Q389782) or "design drawing" (d:Q1416517)	remove links to any of them from translations!!
carved	search	adjective, not used	–
clay pottery	search	pleonastic term	"pottery"
cream wove paper	search	noun-adjective combination	split into noun "wove paper" and adjective "cream"
drawing with black and colored pencil	search	noun-adjective combination	split into noun "pencil" and adjective "black;colored"
drawing with black and coloured pencil	search	noun-adjective combination	split into noun "pencil" and adjective "black;colored"
elk	search	ambiguous: species Cervus canadensis or Alces alces?; which part?	"moose hide" (most use cases seem to be objects from Sweden, thus Alces alces and hides)
elk hide	search	same ambiguity
embossed	search	adjective	"repoussé silver" seems to fit for the single object where it's used
etched contour	search	uses use the "on" parameter in an unexpected way	"etching"; remove from "on" parameter
eternite	search	not used, typo, brand mapped to material	–
examples	search	misuse of Template:Technique, not used	–
frame	search	4 uses? misused for indication of part of object	add and use "frame" instead where appropriate
gilt	search	adjective	in many cases move to an adjective parameter
gilt brass	search	noun-adjective combination	split into noun "brass" and adjective "gilt"
gilt bronze	search	noun-adjective combination	split into noun "bronze" and adjective "gilt"
gilt silver	search	noun-adjective combination	split into noun "silver" and adjective "gilt"
glass fiber	search	mapped to fiberglass in Template:Technique/en, but that's not the same
greenstone	search	ambiguous, not used any more	–
makulatur	search	non-English term, not used	–
nut	search	ambiguous: what nut is meant?, not used any more	–
nut panel	search	same	probably "walnut wood" for most cases
paper mounted on canvas	search	combination	split into "paper" and "mounted" noun "canvas"
paper mounted on cardboard	search	combination	split into "paper" and "mounted" noun "cardboard"
portrait miniature	search	not a technique	move to object type description fields
repoussé	search	adjective	in many cases move to an adjective parameter
ripoli	search	misspelled, not used	–
silver stain	search	ambiguous: "silver stain" (d:Q907841) vs. AAT 300014970
silver-stain	search	same, not used	–
style	search	misuse of Template:Technique, not used	–
tan wove paper	search	noun-adjective combination	split into noun "wove paper" and adjective "tan"
technique	search	misuse of Template:Technique, not used	–
walnut	search	ambiguous: the seed (as in Template:Technique/WikidataLUT) or the wood?
whale bone	search	ambiguous: d:Q275426/AAT 300192974 vs. d:Q67735768/AAT 300417719	"baleen" which is probably meant in most cases
whalebone	search	same

Please let me know if you oppose the replacement and removal of any of the terms above. I plan to wait some time, at least two weeks, and then proceed with replacing and removing them if no objection comes up. Cheers, --Marsupium (talk) 20:31, 28 March 2020 (UTC), 09:44, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I think, too, that every unused, falsely used or pleonastic term can safely be deleted. Also the compounds if there is replacement. For ambiguous terms: Maybe there could be a sub module or similar for these, and if someone wants to use such a term they should get a warning or even error, instead, in best case with the term they should use – or all possible terms. And also the adjectives should moved to the sub template for them. So all in all: I esentially agree. — Speravir – 21:41, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

For the record and as a small update after two years: I've worked on it, there is still a lot to do … :-) --Marsupium (talk) 13:39, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

"Coined"

@Michel Bakni: Hi, you've added "coin" as a new term with the English translation "coined". As far as I can see the only use case so far is at File:Farouk I, 1-2 milim, Egypt, 1938.jpg. I don't think the modelling here is perfect. What is meant is less one technique on another one, but rather bronze with the process of coining used to form it. For a better modelling I propose:

• remove the newly added "coin"
• add "coined" to adjectives subtemplates (I've already done this for English. I think for Arabic the translation should probably be "مضروب‎"?)
• change the use case on File:Farouk I, 1-2 milim, Egypt, 1938.jpg to "{{technique |bronze |adj=coined}}" which gives "coined bronze".

Would you be okay with that? Thanks in advance and best, --Marsupium (talk) 13:55, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@Marsupium, Yes it is ok for me, thanks a lot!--Michel Bakni (talk) 14:26, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

@Michel Bakni:  Done. (Should we add "مضروب‎" as translation for the adjective "coined" to Template:Technique/ar/adjectives or something else?) Best, --Marsupium (talk) 00:19, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

 Done Thanks ! Michel Bakni (talk) 06:27, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Off-topic about a bug in Template:Position

Hello again @Marsupium, please check File:Orhan Gazi Akçe.jpg, when I try to add that the texts are on the frame I got this: "obverseon the frame:", can you correct it to add a space between "obverse" and "on".--Michel Bakni (talk) 23:01, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

This edit has fixed I think. Best, --Marsupium (talk) 01:15, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Space in front of comma

Hi. The Slovene translation requires a comma to be used in front of 'mounted', which makes the comma follow a space (e.g. "slonovina , nameščeno na platnu"). Is there any option to resolve this? --TadejM ^(t/p) 14:56, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Should be solved with this edit. --Marsupium (talk) 08:24, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. It seems ok. --TadejM ^(t/p) 10:02, 16 March 2023 (UTC)