Commons:Categories for discussion/2018/08/Category:Nice

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Category:Nice

[edit]

This category attracts files that people think are nice. Can we rename it, maybe to Category:Nice, Alpes-Maritimes? Some subcats might also need renaming, I haven't checked. --Auntof6 (talk) 02:33, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Unless there's another Nice in France, I would think Category:Nice, France would be most appropriate. A disambiguation page at Category:Nice would make sense. - Themightyquill (talk) 19:48, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That would be consistent with w:Talk:Nancy#Requested move as GeoNames doesn't show any others in France and Nice is larger than Nancy. Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:48, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Discussions on en.wp don't matter here. --Jotzet (talk) 14:55, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In view of the argument, which essentially consists only of an unproven assertion, I oppose a change of name. Ten minutes ago I found just one file that was actually unintentionally categorized according to the adjective. So I think commons can deal "the feared risk" another 12 years. --Jotzet (talk) 14:55, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I should have mentioned the others I removed before creating this request. (Sorry, I didn't count them.) In any case, why is even one acceptable when we have a way to help prevent miscategorization? The fact that the primary meaning of the word is the adjective is reason enough to qualify. --Auntof6 (talk) 17:24, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The assertion needs to be shown that this meaning is, rather than isn't primary, the burden lies with those wanting a primary topic. The fact that it took less than 2 weeks for another incorrect file is good evidence that this title is too ambiguous. We disambiguated Category:Mississippi partly because French users might well confuse the river and state (as the French don't include "river" or similar in the names of rivers) and the same should be done here, to prevent English users from confusing it with the adjective. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:35, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Neutral but weak oppose: if not even the English Wikipedia (where "nice" is understood to be the adjective) felt the need (or the urge) to disambiguate, figure out here on Commons where a relevant part of members hasn't English as first language. -- SERGIO (aka the Blackcat) 08:11, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I would usually take the view than if ENWP hasn't disambiguated a word that is primarily ambiguous in English, there is less problem in other languages. However that's mainly because its difficult to write an article on the concept of nice but its a word that can easily be assigned accidentally in categories. Crouch, Swale (talk) 12:35, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Strong oppose. Change the adjective nice instead. --Totorvdr59 (talk) 14:28, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That wouldn't address the problem. --Auntof6 (talk) 02:34, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Totorvdr59: could you please clarify what you mean by "Change the adjective nice instead"? I think the point is that because the adjective exists there's ambiguity with the name "Nice". Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:07, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support. It does not matter to me whether the category is called "Nice, France" or "Nice, Alpes-Maritimes" as long as it saves us work. The problem is that there are indiscriminate uploaders who do not care that a word may have several meanings, and "nice" as an adjective might turn up among image tags just as well as "Nice" as the name of the city. I've also moved some files into other categories in the last few days, some were even photos of India! It is already bad enough that some people play with words in the image titles and use the adjective as a pun on the city name. --Schlosser67 (talk) 08:58, 19 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Removed some more files from this category in the meantime. Some people don't seem to understand that categories aren't tags. Anyway, just thought of one more point in support of the renaming: there are some other places called Nice in the world, although they are much smaller. We don't usually give the best-known place an attribute in such cases, but it may be justified in this case. However, if a redirect is set, we might end up with the same problem as before. --Schlosser67 (talk) 13:05, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Strong support category:Nice to disambiguation--Estopedist1 (talk) 06:56, 20 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There seems to be a general consensus to rename. Does anyone have a preference for the new category name? Category:Nice, France or Category:Nice (city) make the most sense to me. - Themightyquill (talk) 16:37, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Nice (Alpes-Maritimes) would be consistent with other places in Category:Communes in Alpes-Maritimes. --Auntof6 (talk) 20:28, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, though there are a couple other disambiguated with France there. Personally, it sounds funny to me since Nice is a fairly prominent city, not usually defined by its department, unlike American cities. It would sound equally strange to me to move Rome to Category:Rome, Lazio or Oslo to Category:Oslo, Østlandet. - Themightyquill (talk) 21:49, 22 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Themightyquill: I also personally prefer Category:Nice (city), but I have to concede that I looked through several categories of city cats and cities are almost universally DABed with comma + state/region name, i.e. Category:Nice, Alpes-Maritimes, so I think we should continue to match that. – BMacZero (🗩) 05:43, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@BMacZero: Fine by me, if that what it takes to move forward after 3 years of discussion. =) - Themightyquill (talk) 18:21, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

After considering, I strikethroughed my "strong support". It is quite hard to ignore user:Blackcat's opinion which in briefly says " Neutral but weak oppose". In addition, categories like Category:Nice in the 17th century remains clear if who choose status quo (vs possible Nice (city) in the 17th century)--Estopedist1 (talk) 21:42, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If we are to rename Nice, it should be "Nice, France". There aren't two cities of France called Nice, thus no need to disambiguate beyond its country name. -- Blackcat 21:48, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Probably the best idea. I wonder why nothing has happened in over a year. Schlosser67 (talk) 19:46, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Strong oppose. The English term "nice" is extremely subjective and it is that term that should be qualified like "Nice (aspect)"; as well even as an adjective, it means very different things: beautiful, smart/intelligent, friendly... all of them subjective. And categories like "nice people" (beautful or smart?) is a complete non-sense, breaking NPOV, as well as "nice car", "nice painting". Those perceptive aspects are unassertable, the perception varying a lot depending on cultures of visitors. Only the topic for the city of "Nice" is very objective and by itself not ambiguous at all (at least not in France); there may exist smaller towns or villages needing a disambiguation, but "Nice" is the wellknown capital of the French Riviera, and appears in lot of medias, papers, and historical topics since centuries (including when it was still not part of France) and in many languages (including English!). But if you ever want a dismabiguation, French cities are qualified between parentheses (it may be France, otherwise the name of a department if there were several communes named "Nice" in France, but this is not the case), so it should better be "Nice (France)" and not "Nice, France". verdy_p (talk) 19:08, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Verdy p: : Category:Brest, France and Category:Nancy, France contradict your argument about parenthesis. -- Themightyquill (talk) 10:11, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
These are few exceptions made by those contributors of English Wikipedia; almost all communes in France are disambiguated with the department between parentheses (just like French Wikipedia), because they use the French convention and the official toponyms are in French, according to Commons own policy, because this is the only offciial language (toponyms are written in English only when there are several languages or scripts in competition and supported locally). verdy_p (talk)
Straw poll

@Mercurywoodrose, Auntof6, Crouch, Swale, Jotzet, Blackcat, Schlosser67, BMacZero, and Estopedist1: I think there is general consensus that leaving the category at Category:Nice is going to continue causing problems. The question remains about where to move it. Just to see where everyone is at without having to read through all of the above, can we do this straw poll? -- Themightyquill (talk) 10:17, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Straw poll
Category:Nice (France) Category:Nice, France Category:Nice (city) Category:Nice (Alpes-Maritimes)
or Category:Nice, Alpes-Maritimes
Example  Support -- Themightyquill (talk) 10:17, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Support because it's the most obvious to people not familiar with France, but let's have redirects from the others. --Auntof6 (talk) 17:47, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Support This is the clearest name to me even though regions are more commonly used. – BMacZero (🗩) 21:03, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Support Though "Nice (France)" may be preferred either if fine. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:23, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Support I prefer Nice (France) bur I choose Nice, France because it's the traditional way on englishspeaking Wikipedia --Berdea (talk) 12:02, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply] 		Example

 Support Because, are you sure that in all France there is no other town with the name "Nice"? better limit.--Isidre blanc (talk) 09:08, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Comment I am not a fan of disambiguations if not strictly necessary. I do reckon a weak need for disambiguating this category anyway. In case of disambiguation, I am favourable to Nice, France. Anyway we should have a debate about a common criterium of disambiguation style by administrative unit. We can't go on having French communes disambiguated by brackets and UK and American ones by comma. -- Blackcat 18:51, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment Is anyone from France giving an opinion here? I categorize many photographs of France, and French editors always promptly sort them into smaller categories. I am impressed by their work. Krok6kola (talk) 19:50, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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