User talk:Verdy p/archive19

Category:Japan at the 1948 Summer Olympics

Dear Verdy p,

in general I'm very grateful about the many categories you have created for the Olympics. Only one of those is senceless: Category:Japan at the 1948 Summer Olympics. There was no Japan at the 1948 Summer Olympics, therefore this senceless category is completely empty and not linked to any other media or item. I'll ask to delete it, because it is misleading (oh, they yet deleted is, while I was still writing this sentence - that was quick). On the other hand I would like to have a category about Japan at the 1912 Summer Olympics, but will create it only if I find any media in wikimedia commons which could go there. Sincerely, ThomasPusch (talk) 06:54, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oregon Coast

Was there any consensus or even discussion for this move to a longstanding category? "Oregon Coast" is a widely used name for a region, and Oregon has only one coast. When people refer to the Oregon Coast, they don't necessarily mean the "coast" proper; they also usually include all lowlands west of the Coast Range. - Jmabel ! talk 18:39, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For uniform navigation with "Coasts of". However if there's a common name for the *region* (using capitals), which is not just about its natural coasts and costal features, it should be another subcategory. verdy_p (talk) 19:07, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note that both categories were used, and there's been also discussions for other US states to *merge* (not move) these names as "Coast of 'Statename'" (themselves part of "Coasts of the United States by state", and part of the general scheme of "Coasts of X") if they are refering to the same. Note that the redirecting link remains, it was not asked to deleted them. But in most cases, these names were used to refer to natural coastal features rather than the informal "region" (which may have a use for some demographic or economic classifications, I'm not even sure they should take a capital letter, unless these are names for some local form of government or administration which will not focus jsut on coastal features, but will not be classified as "coasts of X" but as "regions of X" or "Y of X by location" with key "region"). verdy_p (talk) 19:13, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to give a little thought to this in terms of subcategories, but we now have entire counties under Category:Coasts of Oregon, which doesn't seem right to me. - Jmabel ! talk 15:54, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's not the reason: theses counties were already member of another category related to coasts. If you look at th first level of subcategories, all is correct, as well as their imediately listed parent categories. but at some depper level there may be incorrect attachment to a less precise category and some other moves or subclassifications to do. A good example of that is "Arthropods of Oregon", which should not be attached to "coasts" (and were there even before the merge). Merging those names using different schemes ("Coasts of X", "Coast of X", "X Coast") was asked since many years and performed coherently in several states, but not all: ther's lot of other cleanup to do but not really in that category but about what falls into them by members with very weak relation or no relation at all. It takes time to sort all this, but during any merge, there's no reason to remove links from one parent to the new merged parent (move everything, then look at individual members and see if they respect the containment rule: may be they were put there because there was an incorrect guess or a missing parent category. verdy_p (talk) 16:23, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Category moving

If you don't know how to move categories, don't do. You cannot empty a category and move to anoteher, you must keep its chronology. If you have to move a category to another one that already exist, ask for an administrator or a mover. -- Blackcat 17:35, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I konw how to move them.... verdy_p (talk) 17:37, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, you don't. I am an admin and had to fix the mess you did. Stop it soon, you're also messing with the template. -- Blackcat 17:46, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The template is broken/incomplete since you've blocked it, and you're an Italian admin not enough aware of the US visibly. verdy_p (talk) 17:48, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The template works fine. If you want to discuss it talk to me. You're messing with categorization. -- Blackcat 18:10, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There's no messing at all, I don't know what you're trying to prove because the categories are the same. The layout however is logical but I'ven not changed the categories or the sort keys. The fact the template is not fixable (notably its translation) is a problem. And in fact we don't even need any template here (especially a blocked one which cannot be edited to set translations correctly). And you're the noly one that messed the history by using your redaction. Normally any moved category can be moves on the inverse way, except if you've redacted the redirected one. verdy_p (talk) 18:14, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is the translation? It's not topical, it mightn't as well be any. But you cannot eliminate a template just because you don't like how a thing in French is written. Write down what's the correct translation and we'll write it as a string in the template, but don't remove the template that categorizes automatically lots of categories. -- Blackcat 18:18, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But you should also reorder the template to set categories correctly (from most general to most specific). And the placement of the infobox should be as I did (lateral navigation at top, then infobox on the right, then optional description, then notices, then child navigation).

Also don't add so many empty lines that generate empty paragraphs !!! Were' focusnig on the category content, the header should avoid takign unneeded space at top of page.

For translations, it should not be blocked like you did. And in fact they should probably not even be part of the template itself, and won't be needed when they are deprecated by infoboxes. If you place a description, it should not depend at all on the state name taken blindly for an English paremeter meant for naming and disabmibuating categories (alternatively you could use a translation from wikidata labels, jsut like what navigation box by state is doing). verdy_p (talk) 18:25, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is the order of the categories an issue? Wikimedia has not a preference in the categorization, they're not hyerarchical tags; we can also change it but it doesn't change anything in terms of readability. You like the other way around? We can do but it changes nothing. The translation? We can take it off, it is cumbersome for me too. I kept it as a title of courtesy for non-English speaking people. The Wikidata Infobox is not included in the template, thus it must be added manually, thus I don't understand this last remark. -- Blackcat 18:30, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The infobox takes the right side as a description of the entire local topic itself, so it comes after the parent topics (detailed in the top box for lateral navigation to siblings) but before the other textual description and horizontal notice boxes of the topic itself, and then also before the child navigation boxes. The infobox comes in the *middle*. verdy_p (talk) 18:35, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is no requirement that categories come in any particular order. It's nice to put them in an order that makes some sort of sense, but there is no standard. - Jmabel ! talk 19:06, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There should be, it really helps settings the sort keys properly and detecting duplicate categorizations in a parent and child category (only the child should remain).

Generally placing categories in templates is a bad idea when these categories are still not well structured and lot of work is still needed to sort them in an examplar way that can be reproduced. But even in that case, there will always be exceptions. Very few categories should be automated, except those organized by date (year,s, decennials, ...) which are easier to setup (because navigating dates is difficult). But with tools like HotCat, it's now much simpler to reorganize things progressively without blocking everything and it still allows cases for disambiguation as needed.

For descriptions, in most cases they can be deleted once the infobox is there, they don't add any value (dulpicating what is in the infobox) and require too much maintenance. So the only remaining description is what will not fit in the infobox: notices about what is really appropriate, or other related "see also" categories, if they don't fit in an horizontal navbox and will still require maintenance as things are progressively organized/structured. Things that are no longer needed are links to Wikipedia (by interwiki links on the left bar). In general the infobox is much more precise and maintained centrally with their own translations translated item by item in Wikidata labels. verdy_p (talk) 19:17, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is absolutely no consensus for most of what you just said. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but don't confuse it with policy. - Jmabel ! talk 02:48, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Families of Washington (state)

Why add {{Categorize}} to a category with only 30 images in it, almost none of which look like candidates for any sort of subcategory? This seems just plain wrong to me. - Jmabel ! talk 23:14, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's not something about the number of files that are not subcategorized but the totale number of files, many of them have been subcategorized. So nothing wrong here. You're making the cnofusion with another notice which appears for overpopulated categories (this is not the case here but the need to subcategotise remains permanent: the content that category can increase indefinitely, without bounds). verdy_p (talk) 01:32, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The subcategories represent families that are important in the history of the state and for which we have a ton of media. Most of the photos directly in the category are simply photos of families that happen to live in the state. I would hate to see someone come up subcats for specific families of which we will never have more than a couple of photos, or make an arbitrary grouping by ethnicity, date or such. - Jmabel ! talk 02:46, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why?

Hello! Could you please explain, why you are adding this sorting "Hot" and "Hot springs". This is not needed as the category's name is "Hot springs of East Timor". JPF (talk) 09:01, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reminder

Hi Verdy p. I noticed that you've made a malformed deletion request. Here, {{Delete}} is not for speedy deletion, please see COM:DP. When you want to delete a page by manually using the {{Delete}} template (rather than the automatic Nominate for deletion or Nominate category for discussion tool in the Tools menu on the sidebar per COM:DR#Starting requests and COM:CFD#Starting requests), you must follow the instructions in the template, including the "Click here to show further instructions" portion (or Commons:Deletion requests/Listing a request manually policy or the "By hand" portion of COM:CFD#Starting requests, normally collapsed), otherwise you will create a lot of work for other people. — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ_{please ping or talk to me}🇺🇦 12:56, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It was not a "speedy deletion" request but a normal request (because it was there since a logn time). I just added the missing parameters. That category is empty anyway. verdy_p (talk) 12:57, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You did it a different way in this edit. Warning: if you do it one more time, I will be forced to report your actions. — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ_{please ping or talk to me}🇺🇦 13:02, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why? there was no abuse at all, just a action that should have followed and was forgotten; I fixed it on your request (and there was absolutely no emergency anywhere). verdy_p (talk) 13:04, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed how? In what edit? — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ_{please ping or talk to me}🇺🇦 13:17, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I added the parameters for the date, setting the reason in a named parameter rather than anonymous parameter 1, and created the subpage demanded. verdy_p (talk) 13:20, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: the non-sense was that it categorizes continents by country, while it is actually the reverse; there was no country that could match the criteria "by country" there. verdy_p (talk) 13:24, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Category:1369 in Ukraine and others

Hi Verdy. Why are you creating so many empty categories? You shouldn't do that. Someone else will have to spend time deleting them. tyk (talk) 17:28, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Because I'm filling them from other cats that will fit here. verdy_p (talk) 17:29, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok well, please create them when they have content. That's the way everyone else does it. Regards, tyk (talk) 17:42, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's not so easy because navigating between them is not so easy for proper categorization. I've not crrated a lot of them, their content will be fixed anyway, the small navbox template in them generates everything that is needed to reconnect them to the rest. I've already filled several ones. verdy_p (talk) 17:45, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Some of them have been empty for more than 3 hours. That's not how it should be done. Regards, tyk (talk) 17:51, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They are being fed by background jobs, give them the time to terminate; 3 hours is very short. verdy_p (talk) 17:54, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The empty categories qualify for COM:CSD#C2. — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ_{please ping or talk to me}🇺🇦 10:43, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Tobermory

Hi Verdy, something seems to have gone wrong, see File:Tobermory Harbour - geograph.org.uk - 2119842.jpg and other files on Category:Non-empty disambiguation categories. Regards, Achim55 (talk) 19:48, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing, I think there was a bad click, a few pixels away, when I disambiguated the category:Tobermory, and I did not notice it. This is fixed now. verdy_p (talk) 19:54, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Templates

Please stop abusing the use of templates on category pages. You are clogging the pages with duplicate links unnecessarily.
Also, empty infoboxes have no use whatsoever.
Regards, tyk (talk) 10:05, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There's no "duplicate links" at all. This is the standard way to to do thhat everywhere since long. You're alone in this new battle, may be you've not understood why they exist. verdy_p (talk) 11:32, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What are you on about? I'm not involved in any battle. The point is you are duplicating links, as you have done here. Can you not see the links of the template:Countries of Oceania are the same as the subcategories already on the page? There's no need to have them twice. The purpose of the templates is to provide quick access to related categories which are NOT on the page.

In addition, the links should not be in red. That doesn't look good and it's totally unncessary. Other users don't need to see that. tyk (talk) 12:15, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The links are red on purpose on missing categories for downward navigation: this is the role of the all=1 parameter; visibly you've not understood their interest in category maintenance and for creating the categories with the correct names that are navigatable and unified, you're new on this topic. This is how missing categories are discovered, it checks that they are all properly categorized at the expected level, and allows fast creation of missing categories (which frequently have contents but whose description page still not created.

As well the links are not always listing pages in the same category, but they are "horizontally related". verdy_p (talk) 13:01, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No. Other users don't have to see how you do maintenance nor do we need duplicate links clogging category pages with unnecessary templates. I have reported the case to the Administrator's board. tyk (talk) 13:18, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

& definitely do not add {{Wikidata Infobox}} unless there is already a Wikidata item or you are promptly going to create one, which does not mean creating just an empty item. - Jmabel ! talk 16:08, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that Tyk allowed no time and just interrupetd a work in progress. But these boxes are already in place and I'm not supposed to work alone and make too many successive edits when most other categories linked in the navbox already had this infobox and a Wikidata item (what is displayed allows creating them modeled on existing ones). I cannot do everything at the same time, and in fact Commons is full of unfinished tasks to be completed (it's easier to do when there's already existing code you can take model from, with less errors generated when trying: a single edit can be correct the first time and does not break anything; and it saves time). verdy_p (talk) 18:58, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I came along three hours later and it was still in that same unfinished state. As it is now, 11 hours after that. Perhaps you should do fewer of these at a time. Jmabel ! talk 03:07, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For work in progress you should use your own sandbox page and only publish it when it is finished, Verdy. But it is not only a matter of timing. The template "countries of Oceania" simply does not go on the page of Oceania, because those links are already there in the subcateogries. The correct template to use is the template that is already there, so you can move from the category of Oceania to the category of the other continents using the template. The template of countries of Oceania is for use on the category of each country of Oceania in order to navigate from let's say Fiji in art to Samoa in art and so on.
And by the way, the template you are using includes territories which are not in Oceania, like Clipperton Is. which is in North America and the Cocos Is. which are in Asia. tyk (talk) 08:41, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

navbox are not used just for horizantal navagation, they are also used for vertical navigation (the targets may be one or several layers below). And especially useful when building categories (the all=1 parameter is only used for that case in the ancestor category, not for lateral navigation in children subcategories; it may be changed here by removing the all=1 parameter when the contents are stable and complete, that parameter may be restored there, in a singla parent category, when there's a need to restructure it).

Abouit sandboxes, that's not the way it works: sandboxes work in isolation, they can't fit when there are many pages to sandbox at the same time, or it would require maintaining many sandboxes at the same time, and later apply all these sandboxes at the same time (which is impossible for categories: we won't create hundreds of dummy categories jsut for sandboxes. A generic template sandbox can be tested isolately.

And your opinion about Clipperton is just your opinion. This can be discussed though. Many articles link it to Polynesia, just like Easter Island, even if Clipperton was claimed by an American country, Easter Island is part of Chile, and Hawai is part of the US but was claimed by Japan and some recent Russian policians that would like the return of Alaska). Continents are not purely based on political boundaries, but are geographic, they don't follow the political claims. verdy_p (talk) 17:52, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User talk:Verdy p/archive19

Contents

Category:Japan at the 1948 Summer Olympics

Oregon Coast

Category moving

Category:Families of Washington (state)

Why?

Reminder

Category:1369 in Ukraine and others

Tobermory

Templates

Navigation menu

User talk:Verdy p/archive19

Category:Japan at the 1948 Summer Olympics

Oregon Coast

Category moving

Category:Families of Washington (state)

Why?

Reminder

Category:1369 in Ukraine and others

Tobermory

Templates

Navigation menu

Search