Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Maps of Middle-earth

This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Files in Category:Maps of Middle-earth

The following files are confirmed to be copyvio — see discussions below.

I suspect that these files violated some UK copyright laws given how detailed they are. These files, by nature, are derivative works to something in the Middle Earth universe, and according to Rule of evidence, authors must show where these files are derived from, yet most of them, if not all, are claiming to be "own work". According to Commons' precautionary principle, these dubious files must be deleted.

According to Commons:Fan Art § Re-drawing does not avoid copyright infringement,

It is important to understand that you do not avoid copyright infringement merely by re-drawing an existing copyright work, even if you introduce artistic additions or embellishments of your own. For example, if you redraw the map illustrations depicted in the novel The Lord of the Rings you infringe their copyright just as certainly as if you had photocopied them.

These are maps of Middle Earth, the world The Lord of Rings is built on. I have never read / watched any part of the franchise, and I couldn't tell which ones are or are not near-identical copies of what's published, so I am listing everything I found suspicious.

It might be helpful to preserve some files to enwiki under its fair use policy.--痛^Designism (talk) 17:33, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You need to come up up with more than just a sentence from some Wikimedia page. Please provide actual legal information. Cush (talk) 01:11, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"I don't know if they are copies, I did not check it, so I nominate them all" is not a valid argument for deletion. Speedy Keep.Beaumain (talk) 10:44, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note that Commons' policy is different from many other Wikimedia sites. If I know for sure they are copyright violation, they would be speedily deleted rather than sent to discussion right here. 痛^Designism (talk) 21:22, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep but do more checks. Copyright infringement cannot be decided by Category, it must be looked at case-by-case. It looks to me as if File:01 - Kort over hele Midgård (Tolkien) - på dansk.jpg is actually a scan of Christopher Tolkien's map, with the names replaced by the Danish translation's equivalents; I would suspect that this violates copyright even with the transformative addition of the translation. On the other hand, File:Sketch Map of Beleriand.svg bears no resemblance to the map art published in the books, though it still depicts the same geography; I would expect that this is transformative enough to keep. I AM NOT A LAWYER.-- Verbarson ^talk_edits 12:00, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the same is true of file:Sketch Map of Middle-earth.svg and file:Sketch Map of The Shire.svg which do not at all resemble the Tolkien maps and cannot be described as "copied". So, Keep. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:00, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Chiswick Chap, do you find the contour of the two maps you listed resemble anything officially published? Such as the shape of rivers, mountains, etc? Or are they "inaccurate enough" to be considered as separate art works? 痛^Designism (talk) 21:19, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think they are sketches not proper maps, "though I say it as shouldn't". Maybe Verbarson would look through those two and others I've not mentioned, if indeed they haven't done so already (as it sort of appears)? But along with the other discussants here, I think it's quite wrong to provide a list of apples, cheeses, crayons, and paperclips, and to place a block deletion request without analysis of any of them. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:11, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have looked through the category, and listed in my previous thread below those files which appear to be in clear violation of copyright. If this deletion request is closed as a general KEEP, or it has a mixed outcome but any in that list are KEPT, I will nominate them for deletion.

Apart from that, I do not intend to propose any further deletions in this category. I do not know how graphical elements are covered in the copyright law of any country, not even mine (UK). I personally view the re-drawing of a map in a different style as similar to the re-telling of a plot in different words, and I do not feel that this is a violation of copyright. Also, I doubt that the law would distinguish between 'sketches' and 'proper maps'. But, on either point, lawyers may tell me otherwise. -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 18:42, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, @Verbarson and Chiswick Chap. Commons fortunately has a page dedicated to UK copyright law. What we are questioning here is called "Threshold of originality", a concept conveniently explained in the UK law article. But to sum it up, the UK copyright law is more strict compared to most other places in the world ("very low threshold of originality"). We have to treat everything with extreme scrutiny. 痛^Designism (talk) 22:35, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@痛: Every Commons image and Wikipedia article dealing with Middle-earth is derivative, to some extent, from Tolkien's work; the articles should also be derivative of the secondary sources that they cite. Derivation is not the same as copyright violation.

I think there is enough discussion here for an admin to make a decision on; nothing new is being brought up. -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 08:04, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Verbarson. Would you mind going through the list and have a look at these files? I think anything that does not include a detailed map contour is safe. I have already tried excluding a lot of files that does not look like a published map. 痛^Designism (talk) 13:08, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
These images appear to include scans of Christopher Tolkien's map artwork:
File:01 - Kort over hele Midgård (Tolkien) - på dansk.jpg

File:03 - Kort fra Hobbitten (Tolkien) - på dansk.jpg

File:04 - Kort over det centrale Midgård (Tolkien) - på dansk.jpg
This image appears to include a scan of J R R Tolkien's map artwork:
File:Mape di Thror.png
This image is a photograph of J & C Tolkien's original artwork, though of low quality:
File:Maps of Tolkien's Middle Earth.jpg
-- Verbarson ^talk_edits 13:56, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, J.R.R. Tolkien died in 1973, so 1973 + 70 + 1 = 2044, so those specific files could be undeleted in 2044. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 18:53, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Christopher Tolkien died in 2020, so not till 2091 for all except the Mape di Thror. -- Verbarson ^talk_edits 20:37, 24 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep per the above CapnZapp (talk) 13:15, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: 5 copies deleted, the rest is kept. --Yann (talk) 08:05, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Maps of Middle-earth

Files in Category:Maps of Middle-earth

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