User talk:Roopeluhtala

Welcome to Wikimedia Commons, Roopeluhtala!

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-- Wikimedia Commons Welcome (talk) 22:12, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Conscription

Hello, I don't how you get to the conclusion that there is no conscription in Denmark and Austria while still thousands of men serve in respective armed forces every year. The absence of total objectors and serious punishment of those is not equal to abolishment. The link you posted a while ago ([1]) it says about Austria "Total objectors get sentenced to 2 to 6 months' imprisonment. There are no known cases of total objectors in recent years." I don't know how you derive from that a claim that nobody is punished. The absence of cases of total objectors does not imply that total objectors would not be punished. Furthermore, as recently as 2013 a referendum resulted in almost 60% for conscription. In the Danish military there are 6000 conscripted soldiers serving. Denmark applies a lottery system, and sizeable numbers are voluntarily serving - that may make it relatively easy to circumvent the draft, but still means that young men have to serve. --Hansbaer (talk) 15:39, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Conscription

Hi,

You asked me how I got "to the conclusion that there is no conscription in Denmark and Austria while still thousands of men serve in respective armed forces every year."

First of all conscription means compulsory armed or alternative service. If objectors are not punished, then the service is voluntary in practice. If thousands of men serve in army, that does not mean service is compulsory. Also voluntary armies have thousands of men.

You wrote: "The absence of cases of total objectors does not imply that total objectors would not be punished."

Actually it does. If the service was compulsory, chances are someone would object. Since no one has been punished in years, service is voluntary in practice. For example in Finland ca. 50 total objectors are punished every year and in South Korea hundreds.

You wrote: "2013 a referendum resulted in almost 60% for conscription"

Voting results are not relevant, whether objectors are punished or not is.

You wrote "relatively easy to circumvent the draft, but still means that young men have to serve"

On Wikipedia page of Danish Defence it says that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Defence#Conscription "Between ninety-six and ninety-nine percent of the conscripts have been volunteers in the past three years."

If a clear majority are volunteers, then the system is a volunteer system. Also if your car is 96% red and 4% blue, your car is mostly red.

Even if the law is not enforced in many or most cases, there is a difference to abolishment. Delinquents are subject to the mercy of the authorities and may still have to go through ordeals like hearings and legal proceedings. The standard applied on the English Wikipedia is arbitrary and in some aspects questionable. Making all those who do not object to volunteers is a travesty. As long as somebody is forced to serve without a legal choice, it is compulsory. Breaking a law is not a choice. You refer to "chances" - this is Wikipedia. We do not speculate and draw our conclusions. The claim that nobody was punished "in recent years" is questionable as it is solely based on a source which is 22 years old. That's a contradiction itself. The fact is that more than 10.000 men are drafted in Austria each year - they are not volunteers. The law says that they have to expect prison for total objection. I can't say that much a Denmark, but it applies analogously: a lax conscription with high volunteer participation can't hide the fact that some Danish men are forced to military or alternative service. --Hansbaer (talk) 21:15, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

"Even if the law is not enforced in many or most cases, there is a difference to abolishment."

As you can see from the map legend, blue countries have "No enforced conscription". We are not discussing whether conscription is abolished, but whether conscription is enforced or not.

"As long as somebody is forced to serve without a legal choice, it is compulsory."

So you mean that if even one young man is forced to the army, the whole country has implemented conscription? That's insane. Also if one teacher hits one student, that does not mean corporal punishment is an official part of the education system.

"Breaking a law is not a choice."

Being released from a duty on basis of not wanting to go or low motivation is not breaking the law.

"The claim that nobody was punished "in recent years" is questionable as it is solely based on a source which is 22 years old."

Both sources have been written in 2008.

"The law says that they have to expect prison for total objection."

How the law is applied to real life is relevant.

--Roopeluhtala (talk) 02:03, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• Hm, Ill see on Commons the English-describtion “Countries that don't have conscription.“ Nothing about enforced. Wait, the red point is “Countries that have an enforced conscription.“ – but this only a relict from the old png-version which divides between enforced and not-enforced-Countries.
• But hes right. In case there is a legal conscription and only one person is forced to the armed forces, there is a enforced conscription. Its the same with your teacher-example: If there is legal corporal punishment at school and only one teacher hits his student, there is enforced corporal punishment in this country and not only a theoretical system. If the teacher hits the student and there is no legal corporal punishment, there is no corporal punishment in this country at all – only a teacher who breaks the law.
• The recruitment officer decides if you got selected – if he said “Yes” and you do not follow, its against the law.
• Still seven years old.
• No, that doesnt matter. If the military wont enforce the law because the had enough recruits, its their choice. But the law exists and that is the only thing what is important. --BeverlyHillsCop (talk) 20:23, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify: the linked source uses itself references to support its claims. And the claim that there have been no cases in recent years refers to a source which is from 1990/1993. However, there were obviously cases after this time, such as this one from 1999 where a total objector was sentenced to 2 months imprisonment. --Hansbaer (talk) 07:08, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

You may be blocked soon

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   This is your last warning. The next time you vandalize a page, you will be blocked from editing Commons.

Stop reverting this map: File:Conscription map of the world.svg. You need to get an agreement before any change. See also Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/Vandalism#Roopeluhtala.Yann (talk) 07:46, 10 December 2015 (UTC)