Template talk:Creator/Archive 1

This page is an archive. Please do not edit the contents of this page. Direct any additional comments to this page.

Work period

Question: is the workperiod/workloc for the artist in general? And not the specific work/painting? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.139.204.133 (talk • contribs) at 18:49, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, because the same template is used on all works by the one artist. Although for many artists, it is blank. So if you're not sure you could just leave it blank. pfctdayelise (translate?) 06:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Colours

Hmm, could someone please … --Überraschungsbilder 10:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks @ Duesentrieb :-) --Überraschungsbilder 22:12, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

CSS class

This template uses own CSS classes: creator, creator-title, creator-name. But these classes or not known to other projects.

Since a few weeks the complete description page is shown on other projects too, i.e. de:Bild:Friedrich Herlin 001.jpg where this template is not rendered correctly due to missing classes.

I think we should change this template to use inline CSS instead of an own class. --Raymond ^Disc. 11:47, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Wrong behaviour

If a deathdate for an artist is known, but not the birthdate, none of them will show. And it's rather mor common to know only a deathdate for older artists. I'd rather get rid of the "if"-clause than hide information from the users like that. --AndreasPraefcke 09:27, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Template:Photographer

These templates are nearly identical. I think we should merge them. Maybe by creating a new field where the user can declare what the creator is. Options could be: "artist", "painter", "photographer", "musician", "composer", "film-maker", "writer", etc. (Of course, we don't need all those) The default would be "creator" Multi-talented creators can also use this title. We could even make it so the colors are different for each. Rocket000 12:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

They are no longer nearly identical: {{Creator}} is collapsible now (great improvement) and {{Photographer}} is not. I like to use {{Photographer}} as a header for a category as in Category:Photographs by Wiesław Chrzanowski. In order to make it even more useful for this purpose I added a parameter allowing change to the default Photographer title, per above suggestion. Now the only practical difference between {{Creator}} and {{Photographer}} is the colapsibility. --Jarekt (talk) 04:19, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Minor change

Could an administrator please add {{DEFAULTSORT:Creator}} on the line directly before the categories this template resides in?

Also if we could use correct grammar, that would be nice.

"This template also outputs a hCard microformat"

Thadius856 20:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Link to help

~~{{editprotected}}~~

Please add a link such as:

== See also ==

* [[Help:Creator]]

And update the copy-paste example to:

{{Creator
 | Name              = 
 | Alternative names = 
 | Birthdate         = 
 | Birthloc          = 
 | Deathdate         = 
 | Deathloc          = 
 | Workperiod        = 
 | Workloc           = 
}}
[[Category:NAME SURNAME]]

Offloading the doc to an unprotected Template:Creator/doc could be good too. Thanks. 62.147.37.64 11:03, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Done Patstuart (talk) 19:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Problems with automatic categorization

The automatic categorization that is currently required and done with this template is a problem that leads to people refusing to use Creator tags, or deleting them. Please see report at Commons:Village pump#Problem with Creator space. The above text was added at 19:20, 10 May 2008

The last discussion I could find on these problems was here at 19:13, 10 May 2008. There appeared to be consensus for option 4 (Change the system en masse) but a lack of a botmaster to implement it. Option 3 (Change the system gradually) requires no bot but might be ugly. I would like something to be done because people are still removing the Creator tags (most likely because of the double-categorization problem). See Village Pump#Problem with Creator space - decision needed. -Wikibob (talk) 00:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

After working with paintings for several years, I learned that the automatic categorization is not a good idea. Reason: After just one sub-category of an artist, a mess is starting. You see the artit's category on a sub-category of his work. Example: The Image:Hieronymus Bosch 036.jpg is a part of Category:Details of paintings by Hieronymus Bosch. That cat. is part of Category:Details of paintings by Hieronymus Bosch. This image contains {{Creator:Hieronymus Bosch}}. Now comes to problem: That template is assigned to Category:Hieronymus Bosch. In the end, there are several media listed within that category which simply do not belong there (just because of the automatic categorization). It would not be a good idea just to skip the creator inclusion in sub-categories (to prevent that problem). We need a general solution, here's mine: No more auto-categorizations for artists within templates. Maybe a bot could help out after a consensus has arised. --Mattes (talk) 09:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Include images of creators?

If scaled-down versions of portraits are available we could think of include an image each of the creator into each template, e.g. Creator:John Hoppner (yet "noinclude"). Scaled-down images would be better because of data transfer aspects (and the time to perform). I think it would enhance the content. Pros and cons? --Mattes (talk) 07:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

good idea --Jarekt (talk) 13:58, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I like the idea too. But it is not necessary to use a scaled down image. Once an image in normal size was called the first time and scaled down automatically by the servers it is cached. Raymond ^Disc. 15:19, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

now implemented → http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Creator&curid=143439&diff=20236273&oldid=19843804

Example (Creator:James Carroll Beckwith):



Date of birth/death	September 23, 1852	October 24, 1917
Location of birth/death	Hannibal, Missouri	?
Work period	?
Work location	United States, France (Paris)

--Mattes (talk) 11:27, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

It seems there are many problems in this creator template. Why?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 11:44, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The rowspan value was one too low, cause I didn't realize that the image is in a row of its own (with no content else). I fixed that. Looks okay now for me. --Slomox (talk) 12:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to all who made it possible! I would suggest to limit the maximum data size to 60 kB (up to 150 would be OK, too). We should take into consideration:

a) A lot of people do have a ISDN or DSL connection plus flatrate so there is no need to be too restrictive. On the other hand there are some people in the developing countries who would like to have small resolution images because of the cost (no flatrate) and also the slow-down. Such users shouldn't have an immense disadvantage just because they want to look at images. Therefore, we meet in the middle what media size is concerned.

B) There is only a small number of images of artists already available @ Comons which meet the 100kB limit and it takes 5 to 10 minutes for the upload of a downsized image (that is time a lot of users do not want to invest). I myself would like to have uploaded more important artwork in that time instead...) — Maybe we should not be too picky regarding the data size once a larger size is implemented. The best idea for the next months and years would be to set a limit which would otherwise slow down the Computer remarkably like 1,000kB or so. --Mattes (talk) 19:06, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

RE Images, data an size wise: I don't quite understand what Raymond said above. I think there is a difference between a. the data size (e.g. 20kb) and b. the scale of an image (e.g. 20x30px). Let's say we put File:John Hoppner by John Hoppner.jpg (840 KB) or File:John Hoppner.jpg (39 KB) in the Creator:John Hoppner (real examples). Which image will be downloaded faster? I think the 39kb one, given that both have the same pixel ratio (height x width) like we have it done here (couldn't finde the px setting though). I might be misunderstand this topic so please discuss... --Mattes (talk) 09:34, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Images are set to a width of 100px by the Creator template. On the right you can see both pictures with width 100. If you right-click them and go to properties, you will see, that the images have a size of 2.39 and 2.01 KB respectively. This is, cause the software automatically sends a resized version to the user, not the full size version. So you don't have to care about size. Even an image of 20 MB can be scaled down to some KB.

The user will only see the full 840 KB version, if he clicks on the thumbnail and then again clicks on the image on the image description page (the image on the image description page is also already a downsized version [31 KB in this case]). Only then the full 840 KB are sent. --Slomox (talk) 12:32, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

OK, thanks a lot! --Mattes (talk) 13:30, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

New assisting text for inclusions

I would like to suggest a simple help text for unexperienced editors to include such as templates:

noinclude

Note for editors

{{Editprotected}} Proposition:

To add this information to appropriate files, put {{Creator/Archive 1}} and save it.

Deutsch: Setze {{Creator/Archive 1}} in entsprechende Datensätze, um die Informationen dieser Datei einzubinden. Anschließend ist die Änderung abzuspeichern.

noinclude

It could be placed ontop of the c&p section (also for c&p).

--Mattes (talk) 18:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Collapsible?

Shall we make this collapsible? See COM:VP#Creator templates. Lupo 22:04, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Code rationalisation

Please rationalise this template's hCard mark-up, thus:

The outermost DIV should be removed completely, and its class "vcard", plus the class "attendee" (for future use inside an hCalendar microformat), added thus:

class="toccolours creator collapsible collapsed vcard attendee"

The remaining DIVs should be SPANs.

Additionally, the hCard classes "bday", "nickname" and "adr" should appear conditionally; only if a relevant value is entered (but please go ahead with the above changes, if code is needed for this).

Thank you. Andy Mabbett (talk) 20:58, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

hCard according to its article is for contact information. Most of our creators are dead. Is it really meaningful to add contact information for dead people? And then "nickname" is not the same as "alternative name" and "adr" is not the same as "work location". --Slomox (talk) 22:24, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes. hCard is used to identify living and dead people, plus places and organisations. The only mandatory property of "fn" - the (formatted) name. Andy Mabbett (talk) 22:54, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Please give a source for that. And a link to the definitions of "nickname" and "adr". --Slomox (talk) 23:08, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard - also common practise on Wikipedia. The forthcoming addition of "dday" (death-date) to the parent vCard specification also lends weight ;-) Andy Mabbett (talk) 23:14, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Category:Creator templates

I think it would be good to have a category listing all the pages in the Creator namespace using {{Creator}} or {{Photographer}} templates but not images using those templates. Would adding {{ #ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|Creator|[[Category:Creator templates]] }} to those 2 templates have such effect? --Jarekt (talk) 21:23, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes. [1] and [2] not good enough? :) 71.155.242.65 10:02, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible implement the {{ISOdate}} template in date of birth and death to get them in localized format (similar to {{Information}})? --Apalsola ^{t • c} 13:56, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Done. Now we just need to change the dates in all 3049 Creator pages to ISO 8601. I will put it on my bot list, but the list is long. So if anybody wants to start, don't hesitate. --Slomox (talk) 14:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Roles

The template somehow assumes that the role is given from the person. For example, every reference to creator:Evald Hansen adds the category:Engravings by.... This doesn't work for people who sometimes painted, sometimes wrote, sometimes took photos, sometimes translated. Also, it doesn't work for works where one person is the painter and another is the engraver. How should such cases be handled? For now, several images have "author = creator:Evald Hansen" without specifying who painted the picture. --LA2 (talk) 21:24, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

LA2, it was not the template {{Creator}} that added the Category:Engravings by Evald Waldemar Hansen but person that wrote Creator:Evald Hansen. A lot of people find categories automatically added by individual creator templates confusing and the current documentation at Template:Creator/doc does not recommend it. A better way would be for Creator:Evald Hansen not to add any categories and than add the by hand to all the pictures. --Jarekt (talk) 12:18, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The person who created the template Creator:Evald Hansen just followed the general pattern. And that pattern adds a "creator" without specifying the role. I commented here, because I don't know any other place to comment on this pattern. --LA2 (talk) 08:20, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Proposed changes

I would like to propose to:

1) make Creator template "collapsed" by default only in files and uncollapsed otherwise that can be accomplished by changing first 2 lines to:

<div class="vcard"> {| class="toccolours creator collapsible {{#ifimage|collapsed}}" border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" style="direction: {{#dir:{{{lang|}}}}};"

See some examples in Category:Photographs_by_Stefan_Bałuk and Creator:Stefan Bałuk.

Done --Jarekt (talk) 17:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

2) Merge {{Creator}} and {{Photographer}}.

Done--Jarekt (talk) 03:44, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

3) add an optional image field to the creator. Something like in Category:Photographs by Eugeniusz Lokajski.

Done--Jarekt (talk) 12:23, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

--Jarekt (talk) 02:34, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Works for me. But that {{#ifimage}} (which doesn't exist) should be {{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|{{ns:6}}|collapsed}}. Also, with all that formatting, shouldn't MediaWiki:Common.css be updated as well? Rocket000 (talk) 04:43, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

My mistake: I meant {{Ifimage}} not {{{#ifimage}}} so the line should have been:

<div class="vcard"> {| class="toccolours creator collapsible {{ifimage|collapsed}}" border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" style="direction: {{#dir:{{{lang|}}}}};"

But since {{Ifimage}} is just {{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|File|{{{1|}}} }} than your way is perfectly fine too. As for MediaWiki:Common.css I am unfamiliar with how it is used in relation to {{Creator}}, but agree that if possible formatting should be pushed there. --Jarekt (talk) 12:34, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Optional no-category parameter?

With extremely prolific painters, it makes more sense to sort their works into subcategories. This template makes it hard to do that, by forcing the inclusion of every work into the main painter category. (e.g. Category:Raffaello Sanzio is cluttered with images that are already categorized in Category:Details of the School of Athens.) Could we have an optional category=no parameter that allows paintings to be put in subcategories? Mangostar (talk) 15:35, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

The problem was not with template:creator (which does not add categories) but with Creator:Raffaello Sanzio which was autocategorizing. I removed autocategorization from it and added Category:Raffaello Sanzio to all images using it. You can now move those images to sub-categories. --Jarekt (talk) 17:15, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorting of creators in Category:Creator templates

Hi does anybody know why creator templates in Category:Creator templates are not sorted properly? Each creator template has {{DEFAULTSORT:}} statement. --Jarekt (talk) 13:15, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The DEFAULTSORT statement is overridden by [[Category:Creator templates|{{PAGENAME}}]] in the template. --Slomox (talk) 11:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

So, that's what it is. I could not figure it out. Shall we remove "|{{PAGENAME}}", or is there a better way to keep them sorted? --Jarekt (talk) 12:22, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

As long as the sortkey remains in the template there is no way to sort them in any other way. Therefore I removed it. --Slomox (talk) 10:43, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

A new twist was added. User:Multichill added an extra sortkey field: {{ #ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|Creator|[[Category:Creator templates|{{{Sortkey|{{PAGENAME}}}}}]] }} so for time being all the sorting is reverting back to its previous state. I will run my bot tonight and convert all the {{DEFAULTSORT:}} statements to use sortkey argument instead (unless someone will beat me to it). That will be a cleaner approach. --Jarekt (talk) 21:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Done--Jarekt (talk) 12:45, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Proposed change: dates of death/birth

I would like to propose that we try to extract year (only) of birth and death and display it after creators name. It would make top line look like Joe Doe (1944-1999) instead of current Joe Doe. That addition could be only done for image namespace, which is collapsed by default. See Commons:Village_pump#Template:Creator collapse for reasons. --Jarekt (talk) 13:31, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I think this could be done fairly easy. The date is formated in YYYY-MM-DD where one could easily extract YYYY and add it to the namespace through "Creator (If function YYYY found put it here).--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:50, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

{{Editprotected}}
I agree I think the line:

! colspan="4" class="creator-name" | <div class="fn" style="margin-right:6em;">{{{Name}}}</div>

in template:creator/layout should become:

! colspan="4" class="creator-name" | <div class="fn" style="margin-right:6em;">{{{Name}}}</div> {{ifimage|{{#iferror:({{#time: Y |{{{1}}}}}-{{#time: Y |{{{2}}}}})}}}}

see User:Jarekt/c and User:Jarekt/a for test case. --Jarekt (talk) 18:19, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Done. howcheng {chat} 18:33, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Opps, That did not work. I have a new version at User:Jarekt/c and User:Jarekt/a using code below.

! colspan="4" class="creator-name" | <div class="fn" style="margin-right:6em;">{{{Name}}}</div> {{ifimage|{{#iferror: {{#if:{{{Birthdate|}}}{{{Deathdate|}}}|({{#if:{{{Birthdate|}}}|{{#time: Y | {{{Birthdate}}} }} }}-{{#if:{{{Deathdate|}}}|{{#time: Y | {{{Deathdate}}}}}}})}}}}}}

Can someone double-check it? --Jarekt (talk) 20:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

It took some edits, but it should work now. --Slomox (talk) 23:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, That is what I was aiming for. --Jarekt (talk) 02:24, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

One more problem

There is one more problem:
{{creator |Name=Joe | Birthdate = 1999 | Birthloc = New York }}
gives date and location rows:

Joe
Date of birth	1999
Location of birth	Category:New York

while: {{creator | Name=Joe | Deathdate = 1999 | Deathloc = New York }}
does not:

Joe
Date of birth/death		1999
Location of birth/death		Category:New York

The problem is with the {{#if:{{{Birthdate|{{{Deathdate|}}}}}}| condition which should be probably changed to {{#if: {{{Birthdate|}}}{{{Deathdate|}}} |. But I might be wrong again. --Jarekt (talk) 02:37, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

No, you are right. In /layout the parameters are always defined, either set to a value or as empty parameter. So the parameter default will never be reached. I changed the template and the rows are displayed now. --Slomox (talk) 10:37, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Category:Creator templates with images

(below 2 sections were moved by user:Jarekt from Include images of creators? section.)

I've recently created Category:Creator templates with images. User:Jarekt suggested on my talk page to insert images automatically. I think that's a good idea as long as large sized images (high resolution) are not included. Any ideas? --Mattes (talk) 07:45, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Something is wrong with Category:Creator templates with images: All files which contain such a template have this categories assigned now -- but this should only be the case for the creator files. Could someone fix it please? --07:45, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I think we should change the creator template to automatically add images to this category, if we agree that such category is useful (I think it is). May be {{ #ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|Creator|[[Category:Creator templates|{{{Sortkey|{{PAGENAME}}}}}]]{{#if: {{{Image|}}} | [[Category:Creator templates with images|{{{Sortkey|{{PAGENAME}}}}}]] }}}} --Jarekt (talk) 14:54, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Could someone replace

{{ #ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|Creator|[[Category:Creator templates|{{{Sortkey|{{PAGENAME}}}}}]] }}

with

{{ #ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|Creator|[[Category:Creator templates|{{{Sortkey|{{PAGENAME}}}}}]]{{#if: {{{Image|}}} | [[Category:Creator templates with images|{{{Sortkey|{{PAGENAME}}}}}]] }}}}

In the bottom of template:creator --Jarekt (talk) 12:44, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Fixed by User:Multichill --Jarekt (talk) 12:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Unclear status

What is the status of this template?

I believe it is useful but I see editors are removing it from image description pages. It is unclear what the problems are (edit summaries would help a lot here), but could it be due to unwanted categorisation? Also the documentation is lacking and does not say straight away what the purpose of the template actually is.

Here is what Help:Creator#Creator states:

The Creator namespace is similar to the Template namespace in that it only contains templates, yet this namespace is reserved for {{Creator}} infoboxes. These infobox templates contain general information about notable artists to be used on their works' Image namespace pages.

How about, if this is actually consensus on Commons, putting something like this at the top of Template:Creator/doc ?

{{Creator}} displays an infobox to be used on Image namespace pages.

84user (talk) 17:17, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

The status is: Use it.

Categorisation should be no problem. The template itself does not add categories. If the Creator page adds categories that can be changed by an edit to the Creator page.

I'll do the edit to Template:Creator/doc. --Slomox (talk) 17:34, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

OK, thanks Slomox. As an example I have added it to the Artist parameter of the {{Painting}} template in File:Sandro Botticelli 062.jpg and it seems to work there. 84user (talk) 00:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, I may have posted too soon. It seems there is a problem with automatic categorization and this problem does cause editors to remove this template. Template talk:Creator#Problems with automatic categorization above discussed this between May and October 2008.

I see you have reinstated the Creator template in the File:Sandro Botticelli 062.jpg page. That will soon be removed by editors that do not like the category page filling up. I have seen this happen before. We need to come to some solution that will last. I personally do not care if categories fill up, but others do care.

At present {{Creator}} transclusion also adds Category wikitext. Can that be disabled, or modified with a parameter? Another possibility is to instead add [[Creator:NAME SURNAME]] to image pages. But will that have the intended action? Ideas? 84user (talk) 00:34, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

After yet more reading it seems the problem was not with this template at all, but with Creator:Sandro Botticelli. Topic Optional no-category parameter? above had a similar problem with Creator:Raffaello Sanzio, so I did the same and removed the category from Creator:Sandro Botticelli. 84user (talk) 00:59, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

location

In Template:Painting it is advised to use multilingual Location tags if one exists - perhaps the same could be done with Template:Creator? It would then be necessary to include the language switching for that template... (something I have no idea how it is done... ;->) --Anna reg (talk) 09:59, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Almost all the work I do here on Commons is related to localisation and applying multilingual tags. So don't expect me to be a localisation scepticist. But in the case of location tags I'm very hesitant. It's too large an area. There are at least 4 million places on earth. It wouldn't be very clever to maintain our own list of placename translations here on Commons. We should rather try to make available the existing translations on our other projects. Wikipedia maintains a list via the interwikis and Wiktionary maintains lists of translations in its entries. Additionally to Wiktionary we have OmegaWiki, that maintains integrated multilingual dictionary lists. So we should either implement mw:Extension:Interlanguage and then create a parser function to access single names, or we should implement a parser function that accesses Wiktionary or OmegaWiki. A construct like "{{#translate: Amsterdam | am }}" would then render as "አምስተርዳም" (which is Amharic for Amsterdam).

That's yet unimplemented, but it would be a clever solution. The multilingual location tags are no good solution, cause they mean _immense_ loads of work. --Slomox (talk) 13:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

It seems like the templates from multilingual Location tags are already widely used (see {{London}} in Creator:Evert Collier for example) and they add a lot of unnecessary clutter by not using autotranslation. I did change a few to use language switch, when I have a moment I will do the rest. But I agree with Slomox that we can not maintain templates for all possible location. So at the moment for location without a template I prefer a single link to EN wiki (or wiki from country of origin) and to relay on interwiki links from there. And if in the future some extensions that Slomox describes materialize than we will switch. --Jarekt (talk) 12:29, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Category parameter?

Wouldn't it be helpful to add a category parameter in which images using this template are categorized? Could also be used to fill {{In category}}. Multichill (talk) 13:20, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the best solution is for this template to not auto-categorize any images. It confuses everybody and makes it hard to alter or reorganize painter/photographer categories. I think the ideal solution would be write a bot to place <noinclude></noinclude> around all categories used in creator templates and add those categories to the images themselves. For example in case of Creator:Pieter Aertsen: add "[[category:Pieter Aertsen]]" to all files in category:Pieter Aertsen and in Creator:Pieter Aertsen replace "[[category:Pieter Aertsen]]" with "<noinclude>[[category:Pieter Aertsen]]</noinclude>". That way current category structure would remain unchanged and confusing auto-categorization of images is removed. user:JarektBot performed this operation for several creators when there was a need for reorganizing their categories. But I do not know how to do it for all of them. --Jarekt (talk) 13:52, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok. Or just remove the cat and add the template to the category. I did this with category:Pieter Aertsen. Multichill (talk) 15:06, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually that one was not a good example, because those images had category:Pieter Aertsen category. A better example is Creator:Aleksander Gierymski images (like File:Aleksander Gierymski 001.jpg) with that template do not have category:Aleksander Gierymski the creator template does. To fix this autocategory one has to add the category to all the images and remove it from the template. I know how to do it for each creator template, but I do not know how to check and fix 3.2k of them.--Jarekt (talk) 13:12, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Category:Creator templates to fix

I created a temporary maintenance category containing creator templates which use auto-categorization. Creator templates should be categorized but should not add categories to the images that use them. Appropriate categories will be added to all the images transcluding creator templates in Category:Creator templates to fix. --Jarekt (talk) 13:12, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, that's a good idea... :-) Greetings, --Mattes (talk) 17:41, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Macedonian version

Since the page is locked, can you please add a link for the Macedonian version - Template:Creator/mk? Thanks a lot. --B. Jankuloski (talk) 07:04, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I added it to Template:Creator/lang. Since that sub-template is not protected, everybody can add links to it. --Slomox (talk) 18:17, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Two proposed changes

I would like to propose two changes:

adding optional parameter to the template Template:Homecat which would be used to store cetegory name to be used for categorizing creator template, without categorizing files which use it. That cange would not affect current templates but would make recomended code of how to create future creator templates much less confusing.
adding automatic births and deaths categories for the templates.

The change would require us to add within {{ #ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|Creator| ...}} block of {{Creator}} template, the following code:


{{#if:{{{Homecat|}}} | [[Category:{{Homecat}}| ]] }}
{{#iferror: {{#expr: {{{Birthdate|}}} }} | | [[Category:{{ISOdate| {{{Birthdate|}}} |f=Y}} births|{{{Sortkey|{{PAGENAME}}}}}]] }}
{{#iferror: {{#expr: {{{Deathdate|}}} }} | | [[Category:{{ISOdate| {{{Birthdate|}}} |f=Y}} deaths|{{{Sortkey|{{PAGENAME}}}}}]] }}

--Jarekt (talk) 17:23, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure about this.

1. Isn't it easier to include such categories directly on the creator page? I don't really see what value this extra parameter would add.

2. Do we really want Creator pages to be sorted into all these categories? It makes more sense to me to have Creator:Paul Cézanne in Category:Paul Cézanne, and Category:Paul Cézanne in Category:1906 deaths.

I'm not too familiar with Creator pages, so I haven't marked this as "not done" (yet) in case I've misunderstood some of the issues. Pruneau^talk 14:16, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

1. This is how it is done now and this approach will still work. The problem is that the need to proper use of <noinclude></noinclude> tags is confusing and might be causing people to accidentally create creator templates autocategorizing all the images using them. This way we can have much more clear instructions on Template:Creator page on how to use this template and hopefully future uses of this template will be more consistent and will not use autocategorization.

2. Another attempt on adding some consistency to Creator namespace. Many creator pages have births/deaths categories and many do not. This way most pages will have them.

--Jarekt (talk) 15:19, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

On hold until the job queue is lower (2,500 when I wrote this), and I (or someone else) will be performing this edit. Consistency in the Creator namespace is good, as automatic categorization can easier be changed or removed than with manual categorization. --The Evil IP address (talk) 13:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Not done for the moment. The automatic categorization unfortunately didn't work with your code, so I cannot do this. Feel free to request the edit again if the code's working. --The Evil IP address (talk) 13:25, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Categories for the year of birth and death

Why do we now have a category for the year of birth and ~ of death automatically assigned as soon as such information is given? I don't see any reason for that... --Mattes (talk) 20:11, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Some creator pages had them some did not, some had them without <noinclude></noinclude>. This way all have them and it is done right. It is an easy category to add and that way all the creator pages can be found through through births and deaths categories. --Jarekt (talk) 20:57, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I think this is highly distractive and misleading (fills up the birth/death categories, too). A creator can easily be found by his or her name. Guess. it's this diff. No discussions prior to transclude this two categories have been made yet ... --Mattes (talk) 06:04, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Documentation text

This template will categorize into Category:Creator templates and Category:Creator templates with images.

Well, the latter needs to be changed to "This template will categorize into Category:Creator templates. If an image is provided, the Category:Creator templates with images will automatically be added." --Mattes (talk) 06:04, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Fixed --Jarekt (talk) 17:50, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Creator templates sorted by number of transclusions

In case someone is interested. Creator templates sorted by number of transclusions can be found here User:Jarekt/CreatorTemplates. The query was run on Nov 10. --Jarekt (talk) 17:32, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Auto-categorization by work types

I propose addingitional auto-categorization by most popular artwork types, through using following way:

Add two optional parameters
1. {{{Worktype}}} — one type from predefined values
2. {{{Workname}}} — sortkey for categories by worktype (for grupping images of the same objects)
Create subpage Template:Creator/Worktypes with switch of worktype list (see draft wersion bellow)
Additional code in the auto-categorize section (see bellow)

Proposed code for Template:Creator/Worktypes (draft):


{{#switch:{{lc:{{{1}}}}}
|book |building |drawing |ething |font |letter |engraving |opera |painting |sculpture |song = {{{1}}}s<!--
-->|music |concert = compositions<!--
-->|photography |photo = photographs<!--
-->|unknown artworks}}

Proposed code for Template:Creator (in the auto-categorize section):


{{#if:{{{Workname|}}}
|{{#if:{{{Worktype|}}}|[[Category:{{Creator/Worktypes|{{{Worktype}}}}} by {{{Homecat}}}|{{{Workname}}}]] }}
|{{#if:{{{Worktype|}}}|[[Category:{{Creator/Worktypes|{{{Worktype}}}}} by {{{Homecat}}}]] }}
}}

See test wersion of this code in User:Kaganer/Temp/Creator and User:Kaganer/Temp/Creator/Worktypes. Testing of this code: User:Kaganer/Temp. --Kaganer (talk) 15:22, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Strong

Oppose, auto-categorization is bad. Multichill (talk) 15:30, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Why? As optional function (only if "worktype" param is present)? For formalized cases? --Kaganer (talk) 17:57, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Oppose A lot of work is done to undo autocategorization of images by {{Creator}} templates (see here). I agree with your desire for [[Category:Worktype by Artist]] category structure for images using (or not using) creator templates, but it is less confusing to everybody it that is done by manually (or by bot) adding those categories to all images. See for example Category:Albrecht Dürer where such organization is done without any autocategorization. See also Template:Creator/doc#Auto-categorization_issues. --Jarekt (talk) 15:42, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Questions & Answers

I read this - is a very laconical text;)

Ok. How can I see the images that are marked with a "creator" template, but not included in the categories? Whether there is a bot-support for "base categorisation" ? Where to see examples of well-drawn multilingual creator's template (with no-latin original persone name) and where to read instruction on its correct use (including categorization issues) ?

It is important to explain for non-"English-speaking" and bad-"English-reading" users... --Kaganer (talk) 17:57, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Some of your questions:

Question: "How can I see the images that are marked with a "creator" template, but not included in the categories?". Answer: The easiest way I know is through AutoWikiBrowser and their list comparer. You can have a list of all the files in category:Albrecht_Dürer and second list of files transcluding creator:Albrecht_Dürer. You compare the lists and take images transcluding creator:Albrecht_Dürer which are not in sum categories of category:Albrecht_Dürer.
Question: 'Whether there is a bot-support for "base categorisation" ?'. Answer: the easiest way I know is again to use AutoWikiBrowser and write your own bot rules, see some jobs of my user:JarektBot. You can also write your own bots based on other tools (see [3]).
Question: "Where to see examples of well-drawn multilingual creator's template (with no-latin original persone name)". Answer: the ideal solution would be to use approach similar to the one used in Creator:Wiktor Michajlowitsch Wassnezow. See for example russian version of the template: here. In that example the main name is translated to the language of the viewer with the link to his language wiki. Alternative names have 3 main spellings used in literature. City names are translated by {{City}}, which is in a very early stage of the development. For dates we use {{Other date}} (see option for dates in Julian calendar). The only problem with Creator:Wiktor Michajlowitsch Wassnezow is that it still uses autocategorization, but it will be changed.
Question: "where to read instruction on its correct use (including categorization issues)?". Answer: Template:Creator. If something is missing let us know here and we will add it.

--Jarekt (talk) 19:33, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Kaganer, since you are native Russian speaker templates {{Other date}}, {{CountryAdjective}}, {{Occupation}} and {{City}} could use some help with Russian translations to help non-"English-speaking" and bad-"English-reading" users. --Jarekt (talk) 19:49, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply and advice, I will answer in a short time (maybe this topic not for this talk ?).--Kaganer (talk) 00:04, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

{{CountryAdjective/ru}} and {{Occupation/ru}} are created. --Kaganer (talk) 20:05, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Great. Unfortunately I just noticed that the template takes a second parameter f for female form and m (or anything else) for male form. I added them to your new pages (all countries and some occupations). Please check if correct and add remaining occupations since my knowledge of Russian language is very poor. --Jarekt (talk) 21:31, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for update. I are improve this. --Kaganer (talk) 02:00, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

{{Technique/ru}} are updated (and re-combined according to russian artwork descriptions standard). --Kaganer (talk) 02:00, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Auto-categorization

Could someone please point me to the discussion/consensus to undo autocategorization of images by {{Creator}} templates? --Skeezix1000 (talk) 14:44, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I can't seem to locate the consensus, but maybe my search skills are failing me. Or should I be assuming that there was no consensus? --Skeezix1000 (talk) 14:23, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

At the moment there is no effort to undo autocategorization of images by {{Creator}} templates. That task would require specialized bots and would affect over 100k images. I am however working on organizing large artwork categories, and the first step of organization, is removal of autocategorization, see for example my work on Category:Albrecht Dürer. This affects only dozen of creator pages. I was also working on standardizing creator pages, internationalization of their descriptions and clear marking of autocategorizing templates (so one do not have to check the wiki-code to predict behavior of each one). I also fixed creator pages adding license templates and interwikis to the images. I do believe we should remove autocategorization from all creator pages into artist categories, and add categories like "Photographs by ..." or "Paintings by ..." and "Paintings of ..." to all appropriate images. However as I said that would require specialized bots and as far as I know is not being planned. Problems caused by autocategorization by templates into topic categories, was discussed at depth at various forums for years. Two of the Village Pump discussions about those problems, as related to creator pages can be found here and here. I recall few more of similar discussions, including one on how to stop practice of removal of creator templates from images by people organizing them. --Jarekt (talk) 15:49, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. That's very helpful. It can sometimes be very difficult to trace these things back. Cheers, --Skeezix1000 (talk) 21:17, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Name description

At the moment it is a bit unclear to me how names should be described properly. Some Creator templates link directly to the (English) wikipedia article (for example Creator:Hans von Aachen) and some link to a Commons gallery (for example Creator:Rembrandt Harmensz. van Rijn). Why not do both in a way that the user clearly can see where the link is leading to? This could look something like this:

{{Creator
 | Name = Rembrandt [[w:Rembrandt|Wikipedia]] · [[Rembrandt|Gallery]]
}}

Resulting in:

Rembrandt Wikipedia · Gallery

Of course you could make it simpler by adding a new parameter called "Gallery" under the name parameter. Like this:

{{Creator
 | Name    = [[w:Rembrandt|Rembrandt]]
 | Gallery = [[Rembrandt]]
}}

Resulting in:

Rembrandt
Description	Rembrandt

Of course in this last preview "Description" should be read as "Gallery".

I think in this way galleries will have a more clearly defined place within Commons without them being used in a forced way, like what happened here for example. I hope this idea will catch on. Regards, Vincent Steenberg (talk) 12:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion we should just link the gallery and nothing else. We are on Commons and our own pages are the most obvious reference, a must have. And whether we want to have Wikipedia as an additional reference: I'd say no. My reason is: the Wikipedia articles are all linked on the gallery page. So they are just one click away anyway. And linking to Wikipedia adds much overhead. Keep it plain and simple. Just the gallery. --Slomox (talk) 12:59, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with that, but the documentation accompanying this template says something different. That's why I am not entirely sure of what is expected. So maybe the documentation should be changed? Vincent Steenberg (talk) 13:27, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The name (or city) links should link you with pages which have good interwiki links, so you can find more information in the language of your choice. I mostly agree with Slomox, that if we have a gallery and it is up for the task than it should be used as a first preference. However we have a LOT of creator pages for very obscure authors, many without any galleries. For those, in my opinion, en.wiki, wiki in the language of the creator (de.wiki for German creators, etc.) or any other wiki that might have an article should be used. I also see sometimes practice of linking to author categories, which I do not like since the same link should be on the bottom of the page. I prefer any link to no link. --Jarekt (talk) 15:15, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

the Elder / the Younger

I just added elder and younger options to already existing {{Name}} template intended to be used for internationalization of names like "Jan Brueghel " by typing "[[Jan Brueghel the Elder|Jan Brueghel {{name|elder}}]]". Please verify your languages and use. --Jarekt (talk) 18:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

{{NationAndOccupation}} was expanded to allow entries like "Flemish painter" (using "{{NationAndOccupation|m|flemish|painter}}". The expansion was done through use of a new {{RegionAdjective}} template similar to {{CountryAdjective}}. --Jarekt (talk) 19:43, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Creator duos

Currently the template supports only one person. In some cases, there are also creators who worked together all the time, like the Brothers Wolff, 19th century lithographers from Heilbronn/Germany who released all their lithographs together. Is it possible to alter the template to include such duos? Or should I create two templates instead to be used together in all cases? Regards --Rosenzweig δ 11:28, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest approach used with Creator:Roger and Renate Rössing Which was just "{{Creator:Roger Rössing}}{{Creator:Renate Rössing}}" or just insert two creator files at the author/artist field as it is often done. We have several other multiperson templates but they are done by fiting info of several people into single Creator table. Some examples:

--Jarekt (talk)

Thanks. I'll take a look at these solutions and choose one of them that seems appropriate. Regards --Rosenzweig δ 20:59, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Creator: in home category

{{editprotected}} The Creator: page is now sorted under "C". Previously it was sorted with " " before letters. I'd restore this by changing:

{{#if:{{{Homecat|}}} | [[Category:{{{Homecat}}}]] | [[Category:Creator templates without home categories]] }}

to

{{#if:{{{Homecat|}}} | [[Category:{{{Homecat}}}| ]] | [[Category:Creator templates without home categories]] }}

It doesn't change much in categories with many galleries, but it looks better in nearly empty categories. -- User:Docu at 13:34, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the fix --Jarekt (talk)

You are welcome, would you apply it? -- User:Docu at 12:03, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Sure. Sorry I thought it was an info about the change made not the request for change. Thanks again for finding it. --Jarekt (talk)

Set

Just out of curiosity. For a given artist (preferably painter), do we have a fairly comprehensive set of images of his works in at least medium resolution? -- User:Docu at 12:03, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

It varies greatly with the artist, his importance and luck. For some of them we do and for some we have hardly anything. --Jarekt (talk)

It sure does, besides some were more prolific than others. If we have a comprehensive set, we could nominate it as a QI or FP set. -- User:Docu at 13:18, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Category:Vincent van Gogh and subcategories have 2295 files. If each was of a different painting, we might get close ;) -- User:Docu at 14:12, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Scheme

I created a graphics explaining some aspects of category schema of categories related to creator pages. Please comment on schema and on display of it. --Jarekt (talk) 17:23, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Looks good. Reminded me to add these (currently) 16 categories to Category:People by name. A link that is missing is the one between "Creator:Joe Doe" and whatever page includes it (e.g. in "Paintings by John Doe"). I would tend to draw parent categories above and subcategories below, but I suppose it would get much wider.

On a side note, at Category talk:People by name I mentioned a few subcategories that are named "by John Doe", but don't have a parent category "John Doe". -- User:Docu at 17:50, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I noticed that too (some of those might be even mine from few years ago). I think we should eventually create "John Doe" categories for them. --Jarekt (talk) 19:27, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Can I ask what purpose Category:Creator template home categories has in this scheme? Regards, Vincent Steenberg (talk) 18:54, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Maintenance only. One can easily identify categories holding images using creator pages. I was also doing some maintenance on those pages, like adding category:people by name or defaultsort. We might be able to also find all the categories not following this schema like missing dates of birth/death or be within category:Artists by country sub-tree. --Jarekt (talk) 19:17, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

You mean there are creator pages which aren't categorized in the appropriate home category? Vincent Steenberg (talk) 20:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Concept of Homecategory was a late addition to Creator pages and many pages did not fit that mold. Many creator pages were not categorized at all (see here) and some are categorized into categories like "Paintings by John Doe" or even "Painters from Country". At the moment categories within Category:Creator template home categories are automatically added by the creator template (if that category uses a creator template) where category name matches creator page name. Category:Creator templates with non-matching home categories holds creator pages where Homecat string does not match page name. --Jarekt (talk) 21:59, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Also in this schema I did not show categorization of creator pages by birth/death categories. Those were not very popular (see here or here) with some people and I think I would rather try to ensure that Creator home categories have them and then remove them from creator pages. --Jarekt (talk) 19:27, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I noticed that point, but I don't think it's that important. BTW Vincent Steenberg standardized self-portrait cats, maybe these could be included. The first part of the scheme could also be displayed at Category:People by name. -- User:Docu at 19:58, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes we could mention self-portrait cats, but I am not sure what how to fit them. For me they occupy the same space as "Paintings of John Doe" cat. Docu, if you would like to reuse part of this drawing for other cat than feel free to do so. I provided SVG file I created with Inkscape. --Jarekt (talk) 20:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I tried to use Inkscape to edit it and -- well, maybe I should try once more. -- User:Docu at 11:32, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

At Category:Christian Krohg, I found it convenient to group the few images of him into Category:Portraits of Christian Krohg. Not sure if this is ideal or should be added to the scheme, but it seems to work there. -- User:Docu at 13:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Category:Portraits of Christian Krohg sounds like Category:Paintings of John Doe in the schema. I think it might be a better name since it captures paintings, photographs and other styles. --Jarekt (talk) 13:59, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

ok for me. -- User:Docu at 14:12, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Sort for Category:Works of authors who died less than 70 years ago

Currently it sorts by name of creator. Not that it matters that much for a category of this size, but sorting by date of death might be more interesting. Would you add {{{Deathdate|}}} to the sortkey in addition to the name? -- User:Docu at 11:32, 23 February 2010 (UTC), edited 11:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Done I have changed the sort key to {{{Deathdate|}}}. This thread relates to Commons:Village_pump#Validation_of_PD-Art_or_PD-old discussion. --Jarekt (talk) 13:25, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Edit notice for Creator namespace

To make editing easier, we might want to link this template from the edit notice for creator namespace. A sample notice we could use for MediaWiki:Editnotice-100:

You are editing Creator namespace. This page should include a {{Creator}} template. Please review its documentation.

Layout is from here. -- User:Docu at 14:12, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I am unfamiliar with most of the stuff in MediaWiki: namespace. Could you tell us what would the the purpose of this and who and when would see it? --Jarekt (talk) 19:04, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

It will display when you click edit. Just paste the above source into MediaWiki:Editnotice-100 and you will notice. It wont break anything. -- User:Docu at 19:11, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Done--Jarekt (talk) 19:20, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. It works. How do you like it? -- User:Docu at 19:28, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

I like it. I was trying to put collapsible table there with a ready to cut and paste creator template, but could not get it. Oh well. --Jarekt (talk) 02:29, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

As this is primarily needed when creating new ones, this might better fit into MediaWiki:Newarticletext. To make it appear only in Creator namespace, it would need to enclosed in a test for namespace, e.g.

{{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|{{ns:100}}|

*[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}|action=edit&preload=Creator:Preload}} Click to preload with a creator template]

}}

Creator:Preload would need to be protected. -- User:Docu at 03:11, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

It can be done in MediaWiki:Editnotice-100 too, try

{{#ifexist:{{FULLPAGENAME}}||*[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}|action=edit&preload=Creator:Preload}} Click to preload this page with a creator template]}}

The line should appear only on new pages in creator namespace. -- User:Docu at 03:36, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Hey that was pretty clever and it will be quite helpful. --Jarekt (talk) 02:08, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. As it's loaded from there, Creator:Preload should probably be fully protected. Not sure about the ideal name/place for it. Maybe Template:Creator/preload is better. -- User:Docu at 14:30, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Substituted Creator namespace pages

There seem to be a few instances where the page in creator namespace was substituted, e.g. File:Rembrandt, Harmenszoon van Rijn - Diana mit Aktäon und Kallisto - c.1634-1635.jpg. Not sure if there is an easy way to find them. -- User:Docu at 23:41, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

You want a list of all the file pages that contain the template directly? There's 649 of them. Rocket000 (talk) 23:59, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't seem too bad, compared to ‎125,618 pages that use it overall. Maybe too many fix them just while editing, but not enough to go through the troubles of a bot approval. We might want to add it to Commons:Bots/Work_requests instead. -- User:Docu at 00:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

At some point I was wandering how to locate those. Rocket000 how did you commed up with 649. I noticed that people used them occasionally to avoid autocategorization. --Jarekt (talk) 01:54, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I should have thought of this earlier. -- User:Docu at 03:00, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I did a database scan (the dump's from a couple days ago but I doubt it changed since). Rocket000 (talk) 11:41, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I found and replaced about 100-200 of those with Creator namespace pages, but it is quite a mess since each file does it differently. --Jarekt (talk) 18:19, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Images

After adding a few images to self-portraits, we might be able to find some for creator templates that don't have one yet. Changing:

{{#if:{{{Image|}}} | [[Category:Creator templates with images|{{{Sortkey|{{PAGENAME}}}}}]] }}

to:

{{#if:{{{Image|}}} | [[Category:Creator templates with images|{{{Sortkey|{{PAGENAME}}}}}]]|{{Creator template no image}}}}

might identify some of them with this or [4]. -- User:Docu at 13:37, 1 March 2010 (UTC), edited 14:32, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I like the idea of adding more images to creator templates. And agree that mass addition might be a way to do it. I was thinking about temporarily adding:

{{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|File|
<!-- === automatic categorization of pages in File: namespace === -->
  {{#if:{{{Image|}}} || [[Category:Images with creator templates without images|{{{Sortkey|{{PAGENAME}}}}}]] }} 
}}

to the template than create a gallery out of intersection of Category:Images with creator templates without images and recursive Category:self-portraits, and than disable the change. --Jarekt (talk) 15:39, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

If you are primarily interested in doing the intersection, the result would be the same except that the conditional transclusion of a blank template isn't visible on file description pages. -- User:Docu at 19:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I was hoping to cause the least possible visible impact in the file namespace, since there are a lot of files transcluting this template. Do you see any advantage in adding a template instead of a category? --Jarekt (talk) 19:24, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The template wont be visible at all. (look at its source) -- User:Docu at 19:26, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Last time I was looking for it I could not find it. So with template approach even the temporary category would not be visible and we can still do the intersect. That is even cleaner. I will try it. --Jarekt (talk) 19:37, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Done --Jarekt (talk) 19:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

It found a few with [5]. I guess it will take some time until it finishes updating. This finds 409 self-portraits in categories that already have a Creator template defined, but aren't using it on the selfportrait. -- User:Docu at 21:02, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Quite a few came up in the meantime (200-300). BTW to avoid any problems, would you protect the template? -- User:Docu at 17:01, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Done The template is protected now. As for the query I looked at a few returned by CatScan: some you already changed, some were cases where Creator template was used directly without use of Creator namespace pages (see previous discussion) and some that I still do not understand why they were selected. But most were images meeting criteria we were looking for. I did not understand what CatScan2 query was trying to do. --Jarekt (talk) 18:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I think there is some lag in the update. In the meantime, there are still about 200 to go.
If you change Depth 0 to Depth 1 [6] the CatScan2 query does more or less the same as the other one, but in a more complicated way. It misses a few instances where "homecat" doesn't match. -- User:Docu at 18:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

In the meantime, I think we are done. Shall we leave it in or remove it? BTW the other catscan2 query [7] finds self-portraits that don't use an already existing creator template. Maybe the subst test mentioned below could be applied to those. -- User:Docu at 06:38, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I undid the change removing the template. I will delete Template:Creator template no image once nobody is using it. That was a good idea which helped us boost number of creator pages with images. Thanks --Jarekt (talk) 05:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Collapsible

I think it's convenient that the template doesn't collapse when being used on the category description page for an artist.

The other day I created a category for a painting and placed {{Painting}} there. For this type of use, it would look better if the template was collapsed there (or maybe I shouldn't use {{Painting}} in the category description). We could tweak the layout for category namespace to collapse the display if the category name doesn't match the homecat field. -- User:Docu at 17:01, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

That is such a rare case it is probably not worth complicating the code t fix that. An easier way to control it would be to add an extra field which controls collapsed/uncollapsed setting. --Jarekt (talk) 18:07, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

The idea is also that people could also paste it into the file descriptions (without doing any changes). -- User:Docu at 18:31, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Name field

If there is a corresponding gallery, we could link it from the name field. The line would need to be changed to the below:

| Name = {{#ifexist:{{{Name}}}|[[{{{Name}}}]]|{{{Name|}}}}}

If the field already includes links, they would still work. -- User:Docu at 05:42, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes technically we can do that, but I think I read somewhere that {{#ifexist: is an expensive operation and should be used cautiously. I am using the same trick as the last check in {{City}}, but I prefer to avoid it. I was actually thinking lately about accomplishing the same goal by using something like $1 with my AWB bot to add links like that explicitly to all the templates. I was also thinking about going through authors of all PD-old images and checking if creator page exist and adding {{creator:...}} if it does (see en:Wikipedia_talk:AutoWikiBrowser#page_exist_lookup). --Jarekt (talk) 14:13, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

In terms of use of ifexist functions, I'd guess that most Commons templates are very expensive given that they check for various language versions. I don't think that one additional check on some pages will change much. Personally, I'd think it's cleaner not to add links explicitly in a field, but sometimes this can't be avoided. BTW it would be great if that iw check you are asking about would work, but I think you can only check at Wikipedia if an image exists at Commons. It would make it much quicker to add category descriptions .. -- User:Docu at 16:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't think links are necessary, but assuming the creator is worthy of having their own creator template, they should probably have a gallery at some point, right? So you can simply link the name for all of them (unless you hate red links). Of course, the name and the gallery may not always be the same anyway. Regarding the ifexist use, I wouldn't worry about one of them at all. Using 100s of them in a single template is what you have to be careful with (which is why we don't use {{Lang links}} for everything instead of creating /lang pages). Rocket000 (talk) 17:34, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Some "name" fields contain more than the name or already include links, thus it's probably preferable to use ifexist. We could create redirects to categories for artists that don't have a gallery yet. -- User:Docu at 06:38, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Done I also added similar feature for locations. See

{{Creator 
 | Name              = Abraham Lincoln
 | Deathloc          = Berlin
 | Birthloc          = London
}}

Gives

Abraham Lincoln
Location of birth/death	London	Berlin

--Jarekt (talk) 02:38, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Looks good. Thanks. -- User:Docu at 05:36, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Adding creator templates to the pages that do not use them

Ideally all 815k PD-old files would use a creator template to support their claims instead of current <125k. I think we can easily boost the number using it by simple find and replace implemented by a AWB bot:

find:    Author\s*=\s*([^\r\n]+)
replace: Author={{subst:#ifexist: creator:$1 | {{creator:$1}} | $1}}

This approach will take author/artist name, look-up is such creator already exist and replace with {{creator:Name}} if it does.I will investigate the best way to run such a task.--Jarekt (talk) 05:11, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

To start, we might want to work on something like this. A few are already done as the data is from last year (May 2009). Maybe there is a way to get a list of names used in the artist field there. -- User:Docu at 05:36, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

It seems to break on some fields: [8][9]. -- User:Docu at 00:49, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I just noticed it too. Apparently I did not check for empty artist fields. It seems like I will be cleaning up for a while. --Jarekt (talk) 01:56, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

It might easier to just roll them back all and do another run. -- User:Docu at 02:56, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Not so easy. Bot look through ~2k {{Painting}} files without {{Creator}}, edited over 600 - about 200 was correct. I fixed about 150 with 300 to go. I will finish tomorrow. --Jarekt (talk) 05:13, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Obviously it's better to fix them, but there is a script that would rollback just all edits. -- User:Docu at 05:19, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I think I am done with the clean-up. I am unfamiliar with rollback scripts. How does that work? --Jarekt (talk) 18:11, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I haven't tried it either, but enwiki mentions this. -- User:Docu at 18:39, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Commons:WikiProject Creator

I created Commons:WikiProject Creator page describing and coordinating some of the maintenance work related to Creator namespace. Please review and add to. --Jarekt (talk) 15:37, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Creator NS in search

bugzilla:22404 is implemented. -- User:Docu at 14:58, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Display at WP

{{SelectWPlang}} allows to skip between the some language versions at WP (for an initial version, I used the ones with most translations listed here: more can be added).

e.g. for File:Marie-Victoire Lemoine - 1796.jpg

[en] [de] [es] [fr] [it] [nl] [ja] [pl] [pt] [ru] [ca] [cs] [hu] [no] [fi] [sv] [uk] [zh] [ar] [id] [da] [eo] [he] [ko] [lt] [ro] [sk] [sr] [vi] [tr] [mk] [ms] [bg] [et] [el] [simple] [eu] [fa] [gl] [hr] [nn] [sl] [th]

shows that stylesheets aren't uniform or even working across various languages. This is probably due to local WPs using local stylesheets for layout. A workaround could be to include the styles in Template:Creator. -- User:Docu at 10:55, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I noticed a while ago that creator templates do not show-up correctly at other wikpedias and even have a different look between IE and Firefox browsers at Commons. Creator templates (at least in Firefox which I usually use) seem to be often missing some of the lines separating the cells. I do not know much about stylesheets or other ways of possibly fixing those problems, but if you have any ideas than feel free to create mirror of {{Creator}} using {{Creator/test}} and {{Creator/layout-test}} and play with it or propose changes here. I will try to help. --Jarekt (talk) 13:45, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I think it's because they don't have the same css we do. The following is defined in MediaWiki:Common.css, which only applies to Commons (unless the local projects also add it to theirs):

table.creator {
   border-collapse: collapse;
   background-color: #f0f0ff;
}
table.creator th {
   background: #e0e0ee;
   vertical-align: top;
}
table.creator td {
   background: #f0f0ff;
   vertical-align: top;
}
table.creator td.creator-name {
   font-weight: bold;
}

The answer would be to simply add the formatting directly to the template. Rocket000 (talk) 14:57, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good, I usually rely on Rocket's suggestions for CSS anyways. I had a look at {{Information/layout}} and it seems to include formatting directly too. -- User:Docu at 16:57, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

New version

I started editing this template to add the formatting above, but I decided to rewrite the whole thing for a couple reasons.

I hate using awkward wikitable syntax inside parser functions (i.e. using {{!}}), so I converted it to html-style snytax. It's not as compact but easier to edit—to me anyway (and it cuts down on template calls since it doesn't use {{!}}).
I was editing in my sandbox which is in the user namespace so I couldn't get a instant preview without either temporarily filling in the parameters or moving it to the template namespace since it has code such as {{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|Template|... do a preview. I replaced that code with something a little more flexible, {{#if:{{{demo|<noinclude>1</noinclude>}}}|... This way all you have to do is set demo to something to get a preview of the template as if it was filled in, in any namespace.
The main reason: A better way to internationalize with auto-translation. I'm planning to do this the same way as {{MWheader}}, which is different from the popular way of auto-translating. It's more similar to how {{Information}} is now done via translatewiki. We won't use translatewiki or the MediaWiki namespace (for accessibility), but the idea is the same. We won't need /layout anymore and it would make translating easier.

I haven't done #3 yet because I have a question: What is the purpose of parametrizing the labels such as {{{Alternative names label|Alternative names}}}? Where is Alternative names label= used? Do we need it? Rocket000 (talk) 19:46, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Alternative names label is set in one of Template:Creator/lang pages see Template:Creator/de for example; it was until recently a standard way of internationalization. The Alternative names part of {{{Alternative names label|Alternative names}}} is as a "backup" in case some language does not include it and so it show up nicely in the Template:Creator/layout page. We would not need those labels if we internationalize this template using Translate-WIki the way {{Information}} does. --Jarekt (talk) 20:40, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I should have saw that. It was the defaults that threw me off, but it makes sense. Rocket000 (talk) 21:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I forgot about having a fallback, we would have to use the MediaWiki namespace (the translatewiki way) in order to use the built-in MediaWiki fallback mechanism. The {{Fallback}} template basically does the same thing but the point was to get away from that template stuff. So there's not much benefit to changing the translation method. I'll update the template with my other changes though. Rocket000 (talk) 21:50, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Done Now it should display properly on other wikis. Rocket000 (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I checked it on other wikipedias and it looks wright. it even looks correct at IE. Thanks. Do we still need the code in MediaWiki:Common.css? --Jarekt (talk) 01:20, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Nope. I removed it. Rocket000 (talk) 01:48, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, that was quick! It looks good. BTW I added more languages to Template:SelectWPlang (see links in previous section). -- User:Docu at 04:13, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

On Category:Louise Abbéma, it seems that the Date/Location of birth/death cells need a valign=top. -- User:Docu at 07:51, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

All occurrences of <tr> should be changed to <tr valign=top>. vertical-align:top; can be removed from styles. -- User:Docu at 08:07, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Done Now all cells are valign=top. Rocket000 (talk) 03:13, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. -- User:Docu at 03:51, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Self-portrait with Cigar.JPG in image field

For some reason, the image on Creator:Rik Wouters doesn't display. Using another image works. Maybe it has something to do with Template:ImageNoteControl, -- User:Docu at 08:48, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

No. It's got something to do with the file link itself. See this example: [[File:Self-portrait with Cigar.JPG|100x150px]] renders as a plain link:

. Lupo 09:58, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Note: it does generate an <img> tag, but somehow the 100px thumbnail that is linked isn't there:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Self-portrait_with_Cigar.JPG/100px-Self-portrait_with_Cigar.JPG

The 101px thumbnail exists, though:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Self-portrait_with_Cigar.JPG/101px-Self-portrait_with_Cigar.JPG

Looks like one of the recurring thumbnailing problems. Lupo 10:05, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I purged the image and now it seems to work. Raymond 10:12, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

After going to Creator:Rik Wouters and clearing my browser's cache, it does display now. Lupo 10:32, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing it. I had purged it, but I hadn't thought of the usual thumbnailing problem. -- User:Docu at 12:44, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Adding creator templates to the pages that do not use them (Try #2)

FYI. Second attempt for writing AWB modules for adding creator templates to the images is being run. At the moment only images using {{Painting}}. New code can be found here and the edits here. --Jarekt (talk) 02:59, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes I noticed. On the whole it works fine, I think, however, sometimes tl creator is difficult to apply. For example File:Workshop of Joos van Cleve 001.jpg is attributed to the "Workshop of Joos van Cleve" rather than by "Joos van Cleve" himself. So IMO images containing the words "Circle of", "Workshop of", "After", or "Follower of" have to be filtered out somehow. Vincent Steenberg (talk) 11:16, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I am filtering out images containing: "Attributed", "Follower", "School", "After", "Anonymous" and "Unknown" in the artist field I will add "Circle" and "Workshop" before future edits. --Jarekt (talk) 12:27, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

ok, thanks. Vincent Steenberg (talk) 13:09, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

It seems like my bot add creator templates to about 2.5k files out of about 7k files using {{Painting}} template but not {{Creator}} template. The only other problem I can find are edits like [this] where no visible characters were changed but it still counts as an edit. Unless any other problems are noticed I will try to run it on all PD-old or PD-art files not using {{Creator}} templates.--Jarekt (talk) 13:39, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Add website to the fields

Some of the authors have their own websites. Could this be added to the creator template? For example Creator:Rob Lavinsky is one of the templates that would benefit from a website parameter.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 08:09, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Website field would be very rarely used since most Creator pages are created for PD-old artists. I think Description field was meant as catch-all field that can be used for websites. One other type of information that often do not fit the current template is info about sources and references used. The best source/reference is of course well referenced wikipedia article linked from the name field, but there is a bunch of creator templates with references which usually end up within <noinclude></noinclude> tags on the bottom of the page. We could introduce a separate field for those and such field could also be used for websites. Any opinions? --Jarekt (talk) 12:52, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Adding creator templates to the pages that do not use them (again)

FYI. As you might have noticed user:JarekBot is currently inspecting all 103k PD-Art images without creator template for possibility of adding them if one exist. It is using this script. At the same time it localizes headers if necessary, for example here. I will likely run the same process on all PD-Old files, so hopefully we will have much more files using Creator templates when I am done. Unfortunately I was not able to prevent some fraction of edits, like this one which affect only white-spaces. --Jarekt (talk) 15:36, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

user:JarektBot just finished using above mentioned script on all PD-Old files. About 50k Creator templates were added in the process and about 80k since Nov 7 2009. Today we have 185,873 files using creator templates. --Jarekt (talk) 03:16, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Creator:Alexander Helwig Wyant

Does anybody know why Creator:Alexander Helwig Wyant shows "[[Category:Creator templates|]]" on the bottom? It can be fixed by adding a sortkey, but I do not understand why it is a text instead of adding this page to Category:Creator templates. --Jarekt (talk) 20:54, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

It might be a problem with the order how variables/magic words get expanded. BTW at Creator:Robert Frederick Blum, it shows that twice. You might have to check for it before adding the categories ({{#if:{{{Sortkey|}}}). -- User:Docu at 21:15, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Automatic birth, death and people by name categories

I don't think it is a good idea that this category automatically adds categories to creator person categories. This can be confusing when editting a category and noticing that not all categories are in the wiki code, or that the cateogries appear in a different order than they are in the wiki code.
The template does not use the DEFAULTSORT for birth and death categories but has its own sortkey. This is not a big problem when the sort keys are the same (which I think they should be in almost all cases). But it gets confusing when trying to change DEFAULTSORT has no effect on all categories except birth and death year.
For all non-creator person categories these categories are added in the usual way on the category pages. I don't see why this chould be different for creator persons. /Ö 12:18, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

The birth/death and people by name categories were added to the creator template because I noticed a lot of people categories were missing them. The intention was to supplement, not to replace. I agree it is not ideal and can be confusing, and it would be fine to stop using it if we could find a way to add those categories directly to the already existing pages. --Jarekt (talk) 13:19, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

It's particularly annoying in cases like File:Brooklyn Museum - The Holy Women Watch from Afar (Les saintes femmes observent de loin) - James Tissot.jpg. This is not a person, and does not belong in Category:People by name. - Jmabel ! talk 21:30, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

That was different problem, which is already fixed. I was adding Category:People by name to sub-categories of Category:People of the United States by occupation which were missing it and by accident added it to some creator pages too. Those edits were already reverted. At the moment template:creator nor any of the Category:Creator templates should be adding Category:People by name to any pages. --Jarekt (talk) 04:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Most used Creator templates

In case anybody is interested the page User:Jarekt/CreatorTemplates - 2010-05 holds current statistics about how many images use each creator template. As I did last November, I will check templates used by more than 100 images for possible style improvements. Other people might find this data interested as well. --Jarekt (talk) 19:55, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Why did Vincent van Gogh go down? ~~Did they nuke that many thumbnail copies of paintings?~~ The column headers might be inverted. -- User:Docu at 20:01, 14 May 2010 (UTC)