Talk:BSicon/Renaming/Archive 1

BSicon*.svg

Moved from User talk:Maxima m.

Why did you move uÜWclro, uÜWcrou, uÜWclou and uÜWclru to Category:Obsolete ? - Erik Baas (talk) 01:38, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

The icons were created and named without disussions nor announcements to us in JAWP, by a Japanese. And if we follow the German naming convention, they should be cbo, cbu and alike, or under new naming, c14, c23... We should have asked in DE. Anyway, I do not think their names are correct. I do not want to change icon IDs in numerous pages of foreign languages. After giving proper names and cleaning up links (in JA), I am going to nominate them for move. I think file move has implemented. (I have another question, concerning KRW, but it will be made probably in NL) Maxima m (talk) 09:39, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

OK, I see. But I can't seem to find the ones with the right names ! - Erik Baas (talk) 13:59, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

My suggetion: clro → c14 (1st and 4th quadrant corner), crou → c12, clou → c34 and clru → c23.

My goal: Any of the eight main directions get a single char to be identified with, going clockwise starting with 12 o'clock: e (end), 1 (1st quadrant), l (left driving direction), 2 (2nd quadrant), a (start), 3 (3rd quadrant), r (right driving direction), 4 (4th quadrant). Bye! axp_de^Hello! 07:22, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanx, axpde. I copied your answer to ja:Wikipedia‐ノート:経路図テンプレート/鉄道用ピクトグラム一覧. The creator of the icons has suggested the same names recently.

And axpde, don't you have plan to make horizontal ÜW icons, such as one from left to right upper corner? We want to use them, but as Japanese we do not understand the way to name them in German way. Maxima m (talk) 10:37, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you want to introduce any connection possible (eight points: upper middle, upper right, right middle, lower right, lower middle, lower left, left middle, upper left), we'll into big trouble finding consistent names. Have to think about that a bit more ... :-} axp_de^Hello! 12:53, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, how about using stubbornly STR, suffixing directions in your way above? would be STRe2 and STR4a, if my understanding of your idea be correct. For non German speakers, without umlaut is also a welcome :-) Maxima m (talk) 08:28, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

This system has another merit. File:BSicon OBLIQ1.svg OBLIQ1 and ÜWolr STR2+4 bear quite, quite strange names, but they will be no doubt STR24, or STR42. Maxima m (talk) 08:36, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

No, I created the OBLIQ w/o noticing there was other users have come up with a more complete set. OBLIQ is purely for testing purpose and soon should be obsoleted. IMO, the corner set such as 0077File:BSicon 0077.svg can be replaced by ÜWcru File:BSicon ÜWcru.svg, see my sandbox diagram: en:user:sameboat/sandbox#UW. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 09:20, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi, 同舟 (Sameboat). I was unable to understand the ID OBLIQ1 is tentative, and have presumed that icon was going to be released for use as with the present name permanently. :::To avoid suh confusion we in JA are discussing to use BSicon 5####.svg or BSicon 3####.svg for discussion or testing, like NL user Erik Baas is using BSicon 0###.svg. In this way no one think the ID is fixed.

Yes, oblique (or diagonal?) lines are going to be needed in EN and JA manner, though DE refused to use such. See de:Wikipedia Diskussion:Formatvorlage Bahnstrecke. The shape of yours is identical with JA user's one. One thing to regret is JA user have not asked, discussed nor informed to upload files with the current names, thus thir name seem nonsense. He does not understand English, which is apparent from uploading files in the categories Icons for railway descriptions/obsolete and /Bilderkatalog. Anyway, a nice ID is welcome. Maxima m (talk) 13:23, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

DE users rarely use the ÜW set due to their minimalism, though it surprises me that this set was actually brought up by Axp. It would be grateful you notice us in EN project page. But I guess most EN users would not really mind accepting this set of icons. I support the new naming rule for ÜW set. The diacritic letter Ü upsets me so much that everytime I use it I must copy and paste rather than simply type it. We may ask en:user:ChrisDHDR for bot renaming procedure. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 16:27, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

You might have mentioned, that the inventors of BSicons wanted to keep it smart and simple, and the character 'Ü' is on every German keyboard ... same with BRÜCKE, which has a BRUECKE redirecting to it. Why not creating UEW redirects and everyone is happy?!?

Btw. talking about "upsets me so much", I don't think it's useful to have Japanese headlines on commons (instead of "== Summary ==" and so on), or any other non-english character outside the {{ja}}-template! axp_de^Hello! 17:06, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Diacritic letters do not exist on OUR keyboards. What are you talking of mutual respect by creating such problematic file name for your DE users' pleasure and required to redeem by creating all the stupid redirects again and again? And what's the point of renaming the KBF set to KBHF? Both names never make sense to any users other than DE. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 00:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

1: You can type any character by typing the ASCII-code, for example pressing Alt+0220 gives "Ü"; see Windows' "Character Map" for a complete list of codes.

2: I don't really like (or understand) the naming system either, but: there is some logic in there, it has existed for a long time now, and I really wouldn't want to rename all 4500⁺ (!!) icons, so please leave it the way it is. - Erik Baas (talk) 01:08, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Great. Everyone can justify the use of these diacritic letters in the file name because they can be typed anyway or they exist on the keyboard of a small group of users. It is so rightous to ignore what's the trouble that these letters caused to other users who have no knowledge about them at all. I mean, stop using the diacritic letters, if you want them so badly you should create the diacritic redirect to the non-diacritic file in the first place! -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 01:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Look, the problem with the diacritic characters is as big for me as it is for you (there's no "Ü" on my keyboard either), and I don't need them so badly, but I think we have to accept the fact that these files exist, and create redirects when needed, it's as simple as that. - Erik Baas (talk) 03:19, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

The biggest mess about BSicons is – you already named it – people from all over the world create new icons, but don't follow the original naming convention naming those. If an icon with the contrived name already exists, they just attach a number (in most cases "2"), regardless whether those two icons are sophistically comparable. I'd really like to see 1-4 used just to address the corners of the four quadrants, "1" instead of "ro" or "lf" or whatever, "2" instead of "ru" or "rg" and so on ...

Another big problem is the missorientation of many icons regardings left and rright. The original naming convenction as well as the svg-icons itself start at the the top (where x=0) facing to the bottom (where x=500). Therefore the "l" denoted the right hand sight from the viewer's point and "r" the left hand side. This isn't observed by many editors, too!

One question remains: How do we name the top and bottom centered points?

• t is heavily used to denote tunnel tracks, so the t for top is impossible!
• u is heavily used to denote either underground or underneath tracks, a third meaning (up) is unthinkable!
• d and b are used as prefixes for slender (dünn) or broad (breit), a second meaning is not impossible but still not the best choice. Furthermore "bottom" or "down" only refer to the icons itself, not for the track they display!
• The a usually stands for start (in German Anfang), the e for end (in German Ende), as seen in (KBHFa) and (KBHFe), thus a would denote the bottom, e the top of the icon ... I'm not very happy with that, because actually there aren't any tracks starting or ending! :(
• Branching icons use f or g to denote which direction is used, forward driving direction (in German Fahrtrichtung) or "against" driving direction (in German Gegenrichtung). So could be STR2f in the same manner as is STRlf. But is STRlg, and then left is right and up is down. Now ... is STR2g correspondingly or STR4g (absolutely named)?!? Although following the original naming convention I'm not happy with this, too, because of the confusion this naming style results.
• I'd favor this: Use g for straight (in German geradeaus) – only if it's not clear, esp. with braching icons – and drop f completely. STRlg will be STR+r with the +-sign denoting "from". I thought about using f to indicate from, but then the confusion would be dramatical, mixing icons named classical or new ;-)

Viewer's point left center right top 4 ? 1 middle r ell bottom 3 ? 2	STRr STR3 STR STR2 STRl STRr+1 STR3+1 STR2+4 STRl+4 STRq STRq STR2+r STR2+4 STR3+1 STR3+r STR+r STR+4 STR STR+1 STR+l
STRl+r STR2 STRl STR2+r STR2+4 STRl+4 STR+r STR+4 STRl+r	STRr STR3 STRr+l STRr+1 STR3+1 STR3+r STRr+l STR+1 STR+l

What do you think, looks quite consistently to me, we could even drop the "+" with the numbers!

P.S.: Why does class="float-right" not work here? axp_de^Hello! 17:06, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi, everyone icon creators. I would suggest we move (w/ or w/o copying+pasting) to a more proper and open to public page to discuss on, though I am pleased to offer in my talk page such an opportunity of considering file names. The outline of this discussion shows that we from several projects multilingually have needed such an occasion in a certain period. Here in my talk page only persons who are watching this page have noticed, but this isuue be known to more users.

PS1a > axpde 17:06, 28 February 2009 (UTC), I do not understand your words "I don't think it's useful to have Japanese headlines on commons..." I have not used Japanese character here in this page, except only for user name. You mention BotMultichillT (talk) 06:02, 1 January 2009 (UTC)? Sorry, no way to avoid that.

PS1b > axpde 17:06, 28 February 2009 (UTC), class="float-right" does not work in Ja neither. It might be DE local.

PS2 > Sameboat, you can type for Ü as Ü or Ü. This does not depend on OS (Win, Mac, Linux, BSD...), but is translated (interpreted?) by MediaWiki server and your IE, Mozilla, FireFox, or any. Find other combinations for diacritics and ligatures (ō, Ō, ū, Á, œ, ß...) as "entity reference" or "reference entity" or something. A kindhearted Japanese user who transplanted ALL BS templates to JA from EN made template to avoid usign umlaut in this way: {{BS-bridge|ex|}} translates exBRÜCKE. Maxima m (talk) 05:27, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Move: Ack!

PS1a: Can't remember where I saw those unreadable headlines etc. ... changed many of those. Maybe the coder of the bot drops adding headlines in other languages than english?

PS2: Those entities are as old as the "world wide web" itself. You might know, it was invented at the CERN in the very middle of Europe, so they dealed with different type sets from the very beginning!

axp_de^Hello! 10:22, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

P.S.: I've found an icon description with non-latin headline: File:BSicon eABZrfg.svg, uploaded by user:Kyube. axp_de^Hello! 17:51, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, I will tell him Japanese characters are not welcome. Maxima m (talk) 10:56, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you all for your showing own issues. Sameboat told problems for non-German speakers. Erik Baas showed large scale change of ID affects a lot. Axpde wrote the keys of hidden (for non-DE) conventions and proposal for any directions. Before our moving elsewhere, let me tell you our failure and my issue. Because of no relevant documentation for naming convention found (nor made?), we have failed to stop strange file names. No? For nomenclature, I've asked twice in DE ( and ), once in NL (horizontal ), but only one suggestion given (). And what will be the extent of name changes from tex to ext, XX-ELEV to hXX, KBF to KBHF? Will texABZlf, ABZlf-ELEV, uKBFa be left for several months? Editing only for fixing ID is exhausting and resource wasting, of course for all. Maxima m (talk) 07:13, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

If I remember correctly I suggested STR+BSx, made my thoughts on the multipoint connecting ÜW-tracks (though others were faster but ... well, now it's quite a mess :( – but for that KRWl icon, we already have such an icon on de-WP for over one year: de:File:BSicon ÜSTdl.svg! Ok, again it's an Umlaut in it (from Überleitstelle), but again a redirect UEST should do it! axp_de^Hello! 10:22, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it was you that showed STR+BSlr. Thanx a lot, now we are using them numerous pages. Maxima m (talk) 10:56, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I have not noticed similar issue is going on by members above signed, but I found recently Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template. Moving to EN? Maxima m (talk) 10:56, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

That talk page doesn't exist (here), I think you talked about en:Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template, right? I'll have a look what topics are discussed there! Thanks & Bye axp_de^Hello!

#sigh# I just remembered why I have en-WP. de-WP invented BSicons, but they want to make the rules, but fail not finding any concensus, but they wanne stop me when trying to expand the original german system. I know about the Umlaut-problem and will install ways to work around, but I'm not willing to change the whole naming system to fully match english vocabulary. If they wanne do so, move on, but don't use the general prefix "BSicon", BS = Bahnstrecke is German, too ;-)

Let's stay here, I invented the ÜW-icons, you invented new ways to integrate them into more complex diagrams, if we both find a consistent system of icons/names, they'll have to take what we built :) axp_de^Hello! 17:20, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I noticed the page I wrote did (and does) not exist, so I thought I added :en:, but it dropped somehow. I was talking to someone off screen then, that's why. Yes I meant in EN.

My suggestion and your completion lead new system which can complete ALL directions. Right? STR12, STR 23 can be imagined, but I think they are pratically no use. A Japanese-speaking user (I do not want call him "colleague" nor "fellow". I am tired of him.), uploading several tens of icons is awaiting, I hope, proper names, if any.

ABZ can use this system. ÜWol will be ABZ2, and alike. Great probability.

The is my creation. I failed to notice any comment on it until this week, if you're still in need of the horizontal variety I'll be happy to make it. Wiebevl (talk) 14:55, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

@Wiebevl, my reply is here. Maxima m (talk) 02:43, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Recently I've created the simple Category:Icons for railway descriptions/walkway icons (the intention is explained in the category page.) I know the naming isn't good enough and actually I prefer the 1~4 numeric naming rule pruposed in the middle of this discussion. Please suggest. Thx. (p.s. I think I will create more diagonal lines that cross or stop at the middle, but I find no suitable example in the new naming rule.) -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 00:58, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Whichaway?

Moved from en:Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template/Catalog of pictograms/stations.

KBHF(lcL) (excuse that but uc i and lc L are indistinguishable) is shown with stub track on right hand side by eye.
BHF(lcL) is shown with stub track on left hand side by eye. This l=>/l=< business with minor attempts at getting one system is just too chaotic. This example shows how route-following naming fails:

AMBIGUITY OF F/G AND L/R
START CONTs show way the driver faces going down the page from START Here F/G and L/R are unambiguous LHS "ABZ3lg" is OK but RHS is NOT lg The ABZ3lgs are blue for clarity LEFT IS RIGHT and LEFT IS LEFT KBHFaq KBHFeq

--SilasW (talk) 21:51, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

The main problem is, that once again some creators of icons didn't pay attention to the naming convention, left and right is always seen in "driving direction", i.e. from the top to bottom!

The suffix 'lower-L' says, the track connects to the left as in  (STRlf),  (ABZlf),   (ABZld),  (CONTl) and now in  (KBHFl).

The naming of "ABZ3xy" is another problem, the naming is not very logical, in particular what's the sense of the "3"? Obviously the creater took "ABZxy" and exchanged the straight track for the one across, so "driving direction" is still from top to bottom, although the track doesn't go that way ...

You see, my quest for a consistent naming of all icons is a bit fighting against windmills ... ;-) axp_de^Hello! 23:02, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

BS showed a single line with indications of branches; that simple scheme allowed the use of driver's left and right and with/against (f/g), but once BS#s came with loops those flags became unhelpful (see the two ABZ3lgs above where the one on the reader's left is a true "links gegen" but the one on the right is seen by a driver as "rechts vorwart" (or whatever f stood for). The existing system is flawed.

Some editors proclaim, not ex-cathedra but ex-soapbox, that certain icons are "wrong", "obsolete", "about to be deleted". The whole thing is in a mess. A complete systematic renaming would help but it would need consensus and probably assigned shared editorial responsibility, it would require linking every old name to its new name which would following a more user-friendly system, eg losing ABZs and BHFs (this is en.WP) and defining a basic shape, for example the present ABZlf might be JN1 (Junction 1), with a suffix to show rotation, say t (Three o/clock) for 90 degrees, s (Six o/c) for 180, and n (Nine) for 270 degrees. JN1t would replace ABZ3rg, JN1s ABZlg and JN1n ABZ3rf. Knowing or finding one would give instant access to the others. ABZfr could become JN2 with its rotations. If some names were redundant would not matter eg TR (for track) rotated 180 deg to give TRs shouldn't matter, if I am called Smith, John instead of John Smith the blood doesn't rush to my head.

DOWN with F/G and L/R!
JN1.....not ABZlf JN1t....not ABZ3rg JN1s.....not ABZlg JN1n.....not ABZ3rf

--SilasW (talk) 20:35, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, as I said before, I have no problem with en-WP inventing an own system of icons, but then go all the way and don't use "BSicon", {{BS#}} and so on – use RR... or RW... instead! axp_de^Hello! 01:20, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Prefix K for terminus?

Moved from en:Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template/Catalog of pictograms/stations.

Axp, you should really explain why you're insistent to change the terminus icons to Kxxx. Every terminus icons must have the a/e/l/r suffix to indicate its terminus identity, so BHFa/HSTa/DSTa... are perfectly fine and better than KBHFa/KHSTa/KDSTa. Forcing the prefix K only confuses those don't know German language. Was there a consensus in DE or Commons Wiki? -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 07:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi Sameboat,

there are several reasons to create a new set of consistently named BSicons, first with heavy railway, now the same with light railway:

1. Among terminal stations we have on one hand KBFa and KBFe, but on the other hand BHFl and BHFr, thus different names for BSicons with the same meaning,
2. furthermore there are BSicons called KBFl and KBFr, which have a completely different design compared to KBFa and KBFe!
3. The terminal stops the BSicons are named HSTa, HSTe, HSTl and HSTr, but the non-passenger terminal stations KDSa, KDSe, KDSl and KDSr (not DSTa/e/l/r as you said), the names jollily alternate, some with K, some without!
4. Meanwhile there are other BSicons – presumably undiscussed at all – as File:BSicon uHHSTr.svg, although there is a suffix r, this BSicon doesn't show a terminal stop!
5. The suffices of all horizontally orientated terminal stations and stop are wrong, l indicates "track to the left" as seen in "driving direction" from top to bottom. Thus all those BSicons (BHFl/r, KDSl/r, HSTl/r) are wrong and need to be exchanged anyway, so why not go all the way and introduce a consistent naming scheme?!
6. Obviously German mames may confuse all those not speaking German, but those BSicons (BS stands for „Bahnstrecke“, "Railroad") were invented by German wikipedia, and to be honest, no matter which language you use, there'll always be someone moaning!!

Btw. someone announced widely to introduce a new version of icons all named English, but I haven't heard much about it lately ... maybe he realised, that there is no sense in reinventing the wheel! But still it's subject to optimising ;-) Bye axp_de^Hello! 11:03, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Would someone be able to produce icons representing terminals that are underground (aka tunnel)? The MBTA has a yard/terminal at the end of the red line that is completely underground. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crash575 (talk • contribs) 23:01, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

TuBHFu

Moved from en:Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template/Catalog of pictograms/stations.

File:BSicon TuBHFu.svg

Can someone please tell me what the correct name for TuBHFu should be?

I'd also like to know how a uBHFl with a disused heavy rail line to the right should be named. -mattbuck (Talk) 12:37, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

If there's a red dot in the middle I'd say "BSicon mTBHFu.svg" ("m" for mixed), but with the blue dot ...

The problem with mixed railways is nearly complete undiscussed. Which one wins?

Heavy rail as seen in in File:BSicon muxABZlf.svg (File:BSicon muxABZlf.svg) or light rail as seen in File:BSicon muABZlf.svg (File:BSicon muABZlf.svg).

Concerning stations we get into real big trouble, there are several different approaches :

1. Heavy rail beats light rail: File:BSicon tBHFuq.svg (File:BSicon tBHFuq.svg)
2. Rail running on top wins: File:BSicon uTS+BHFu.svg (File:BSicon uTS+BHFu.svg) – just missing an "m"
3. Mixed bubble, heavy wins: (File:BSicon muKBFa.svg)
4. Mixed bubble, light wins: File:BSicon muBHF.svg (File:BSicon muBHF.svg)
5. Errr ... whatever rule: File:BSicon utBHFqo.svg (File:BSicon utBHFqo.svg)

Btw. needless to say most of those icons bear very bad names ... :(

Hmmm ... any ideas? axp_de^Hello! 14:54, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, in the first two cases the straight rail won, which is fairly usual I think, I only did blue station as it was on top. We need a coherent strategy I think... -mattbuck (Talk) 18:38, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

In case of File:BSicon muABZ3 lg.svg (File:BSicon muABZ3 lg.svg) the branching line wins ... axp_de^Hello! 21:14, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Again, it's the one that's vertical that wins in that one. That seems to be a reasonable rule to follow for starters, for tracks anyway, so now we just need to figure out naming. And stations. -mattbuck (Talk) 22:11, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

After a further thought, I reckon this needs a multi-colour station icon, as otherwise it's just heavy rail under a light rail station. -mattbuck (Talk) 17:02, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, if there's a light railway station right above a heavy rail track (with no stop on this), there are other ways to display this, maybe just ... you see, no problem ... I don't like the idea of red/blue bubbles, as they might be hard to recognize by visual impared people. axp_de^Hello! 22:32, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, I just discovered User:AlisonW/Rail_grp7's mixed icons, which are a right mess. I think we need to come up with some coherent naming conventions for mixed icons, as they're all over the place. -mattbuck (Talk) 03:17, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

One reason I removed the "mixed lines" from my consolidation tables was that they are, indeed, a mess. Generally the vertical line decides the 'main code base', at least so far as I can tell. After I split off the (less-contentious?) single-colour lines I'd intended to attack the multiples, but as yet I haven't seen a clear way to start. My tables generally only consolidate what is already created, although I did try to find some logical basis for coding in places. My hope was that by use of 'under and over' layers we won't need to create them as separate icons in the first place! --AlisonW (talk) 20:59, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

It was never so easy to agree with you, Alison ;-) 100% d'accord! axp_de^Hello! 15:00, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Mixed icon mess

moved from User talk:Axpde/Archive 2

Original uploads ("I need an upload favour")

Hi. Could you please create and upload a new version of File:BSicon_meuxABZlf.svg please? I need it to have the light rail disused, and below the heavy rather than above. I'd do it myself, but the uni network I'm on doesn't seem to like it for some reason, it keeps coming up with security errors when I try to upload.

Thanks. -mattbuck (Talk) 03:35, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Creating the icon ... no problem. Loading up the icon ... no problem. Find a consistent name ... BIG PROBLEM :(

The naming convention knows two possible names for mixed ex junction: "BSicon_exmABZgl.svg" and "BSicon_uexmABZgl.svg" (straight/to left – ends the old "driving direction vs. opposite direction problem). But there are four different possible icons (existing KRZ-icons added to compare):

exmKRZ		–	regular exmABZgl		–		alternate (or		... maybe exmABZlg (l for red first, g for blue last)??
uexmKRZ		–	regular uexmABZgl		–		alternate (or		... maybe uexmABZlg (l for blue first, g for red last)??
just for comparing reasons ...
emKRZ		–	regular emABZgl		–				no alternate emABZgl
uemKRZ		–	regular uemABZgl		–				no alternate uemABZgl
even more comparing ...
xmKRZ		–	regular xmABZgl		–				no alternate xmABZgl
uxmKRZ		–	regular uxmABZgl		–				no alternate uxmABZgl

Ususally I follow the rules "in use wins vs. off use" and "heavy rail wins vs. light rail", but sometimes we need "light wins vs. heavy". And we have a similiar problem naming mixed split level stations. I'd like to find a rule that soothes both problems giving a "universal rule" to name mixed icons ... You see, no easy job :( Have to think more about it ... axp_de^Hello! 21:59, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree, it is a quandry. Could you just upload it with a temporary name for now so it can be used? Another issue I came across today was File:BSicon_exTBHFu.svg - this has an ex name, but still has currently used track on it, when imo ex should mean total disuse. I think really that there does need to be a wholesale renaming done, stuff works ok when it's single line, but when you get two lines in, especially light/heavy, it really goes to pot. Your idea of an english name version would be nice, if rather ambitious. -mattbuck (Talk) 23:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Conc. split level stations we got the problem of three different objects which can be in or off use, so we got 2 times 2 times 2 possibilities (minus one for unused tracks and station in use, which in fact would be a en:contradictio in adjecto), so the two prefixes "e" and "x" aren't sufficient. Thus I introduced another "x" in the suffix (along with "t") to mark the condition of the horizontal track after the ID while the condition of the vertical track before the ID as usual.

Of course the might have been other ways to solve this dilemma, but now it's done, and there are quite a lot of split level stations which would have to be renamed :(

Btw. the Englisch names are not my idea neither of my concern, that's Dkpintar ;-) CU axp_de^Hello! 09:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I thought I saw you doing something about it. Oh well. Actually, we could have 4 objects to be in use or not, if it's a split-designation station... And actually I DID find a use for disused track with station in use... -mattbuck (Talk) 11:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

A railway station in use regarding it's function as a place of railway transportation must have at least one connected railway track in use, else it's no "railway station". Maybe a technical museum or something alike ... same as a harbour without connected waterways is no harbour! axp_de^Hello! 15:24, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

It was a station which was turned in to a museum with a little railway in the grounds... -mattbuck (Talk) 15:45, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd definetly say it's no railway station, it's a museum, period. Or do you call en:RMS Queen Mary an ocean liner in use? axp_de^Hello! 17:04, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Solution

I've come up with this proposal how we can fix this mixed icon mess. I'd like to know what you think:

	e	x	ex
Red straight and red over blue - mABZu-
File:BSicon muxABZlf.svg (mABZugl)	File:BSicon muexABZlf.svg (meABZugl)	mxABZug-	File:BSicon meueABZlf.svg (mexABZugl)
Red straight and blue over red - muABZ-
muABZg-	mueABZg-	File:BSicon meuABZlf.svg (muxABZgl)	muexABZg-
Blue straight and red over blue - uABZm-
uABZmg-	ueABZmg-	File:BSicon muexABZrf.svg (uxABZmgr)	uexABZmg-
Blue straight and blue over red - umABZ-
File:BSicon muABZlf.svg (umABZgl)	(umeABZgl)	umxABZg-	File:BSicon meuxABZrg.svg (umexABZg+l)

At the moment not all are present, but once we agree on this we can fix this once and for all and I'd be happy to create the missing ones. (64 g- icons and 64 q- icons that is) Wiebevl (talk) 12:28, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

First impression: The suffix "u" is a bad idea, as suffix "u" stands for "underneath" ... axp_de^Hello! 11:34, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

To avoid confusion, the "m" should always be a prefix. If the "m" is considered the main property of these icons, I think it should also be the first prefix. Regards, BjørnN (talk) 11:57, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

For the sake of BS(u)e-templates the order of prefix has to be "u" - "e" - "x" - "m" just like those icons I listed there: User:Axpde/BSicons light#mixed crossings (96 icons)! Regards axp_de^Hello! 13:56, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

That is also OK, but the "m" should definitely not appear as a suffix. BjørnN (talk) 14:09, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not yet sure how to handle some ambiguities, but an "m" as suffix is definetely the worst option. axp_de^Hello! 14:11, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

mixed branches overview

Usually "m" indicates main focus on heavy rail, "um" indicates main focus on light rail:

	-					e					x					ex
mABZgl (?)		+		=			+		=								+		=
mABZgl (?)		+		=								+		=			+		=
umABZgl (?)		+		=								+		=			+		=
umABZgl (?)		+		=			+		=								+		=

As you can see the "e" and "x" icons have no ambiguities, but "-" and "ex" do have, those need to be distinguished ... axp_de^Hello! 14:34, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Compliments on the above table, this nails it. Ok, suffixes are a bad idea. The reason I thought of this, is that with the combination of "u" and "m" as prefix only four variations can be made: "m" could be used for red straight and red over blue. "mu", could be used for red straight but blue over red, "um" blue straight and blue over red and that leaves "u", blue straight and blue over red, however "u" is in use for light rail only for obvious reasons. Still we should find a solution...Wiebevl (talk) 17:45, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not comfortable with using the "m" like that, after all we have also other colors than red and blue. To get some logic into the solution of the problem, I suggest indicating the "entering" (= upper) color of the icon before the "m" and the branching color after the "m", consequently the left icon column would be

muABZgl
mABZgl
umuABZgl
umABZgl

Regards, BjørnN (talk) 20:22, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Already thought about doubling the "m" or "u" ... yet not happy about it ... have to sleep over it. Good night ;-) axp_de^Hello! 20:27, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Come to think of it, maybe the "u" suffix is not such a bad idea, in combination with the "o" suffix:

mABZogl
mABZugl
umABZogl
umABZugl

Wiebevl (talk) 07:51, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

It works, but I'm not sure if the scheme can be used for other colors. Here is an example with icons from U-bahn Berlin:

both colors as prefix
u9mu3ABZogl	File:BSicon uSTRlf BlnU3.svg File:BSicon uSTR BlnU9.svg
u3mu9ABZugl	File:BSicon uSTR BlnU3.svg File:BSicon uSTRlf BlnU9.svg
u9mu3ABZugl	File:BSicon uSTR BlnU9.svg File:BSicon uSTRlf BlnU3.svg
u3mu9ABZogl	File:BSicon uSTRlf BlnU9.svg File:BSicon uSTR BlnU3.svg

However, I have not checked if this scheme will work with other combination of shapes. Also, I'm not shure if we really want that many combinations of colors and shapes. I find the overlay method promising because it might reduce the never ending production of new icons. Regards, BjørnN (talk) 08:23, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't care about other colors than red and blue, even if some icons were created to display the Berlin U-Bahn. It's hard enough to set up a consistent naming scheme for heavy and light rail only, not going to waste any thoughts on other colors ;-)

Worldwide seen you're right, overlay will reduce the amount of icons needed, alas in de-WP some users are still concerned about some browsers not showing overlay icons correctly, thus we don't have this opportunity yet ... axp_de^Hello! 18:52, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

P.S.: The 'o's and 'u's after ABZ are even worse ... axp_de^Hello! 19:25, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, I was trying to use Wiebevl's scheme, although the use of "o" and "u" may be confusing - on bridge icons they have another meaning. BjørnN (talk) 19:44, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

So what you suggest is not to attempt a convenient naming? I don't see the problem with 'o' and 'u' after ABZ. Wiebevl (talk) 13:30, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Well my goal is to find a consistent naming scheme, that also soothes File:BSicon TuBHFu.svg ...

how do we call

File:BSicon TuBHFu.svg

vs.

File:BSicon TuBHFu.svg

??

Regards axp_de^Hello! 00:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

File:BSicon TuBHFu.svg

I would call mTBHFu, just like is suggested.

File:BSicon TuBHFu.svg

is a strange one since the heavy rail is beneath the lightrail, but station is on top. Wiebevl (talk) 21:25, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion, the "m" should be used for mixed heavy and light rail icons (usually for red/blue, special pre-prefixes in front or su-prefixes behind may be added if different colours are used, just like the example of u9mu3ABZugl above) and should stay as the last prefix (only before "d") such that the "u", "e", "x" and "t" prefixes can be easily sorted using the BSe-anleitung templates. This will make the prefixes order u, e, x, h/t, v, m, d, that is my suggestion. (One of such exceptions may be something like mtKRZt or mhKRZt - I really do not know what to do with them.) Newfraferz17 (talk) 07:38, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

The logical order is:

1. "u", "e", "x", "m" – all prefixes concerning color of track first (for different BS-anleitung-templates)
2. "b"/"c"/"d"/"v" – prefixes concerning size of icon second: b=broad (1000px), c=compact (125px), d=slender (250px), v=twin track (don't know who invented this prefix ...)
3. "h"/"t" - prefixes concerning shape of track last (directly attached to BSicon-ID, sometimes needed to be used as suffix as well)

All crossings by me are named this way ... axp_de^Hello! 08:25, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Well...after looking at several files, such as File:BSicon uextTBHFxt.svg and File:BSicon ABZgl+xl.svg, I think that it is REALLY necessary to create a third prefix after "e" and "x" for icons with more than four permutations, otherwise it may just end up with more confusing suffixes.

Any views on this? Newfraferz17 (talk) 09:14, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Any ideas yet how to solve the mixed icons mess? Wiebevl (talk) 21:05, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

If there is no insist on the positions of the lines (red before blue or vice versa), then it's done, just change "mux" to "m" (changed), "meu" to "xm" (changed), "mue" to "em" (with exception mueABZlg), "meue" to "exm" (with exception meueABZlg), "meux" to "uem" (with exception meuxABZrg), and others (if any) accordingly - also change the suffixes "lf", "rf", "lg" and "rg" to the new ones if necessary. If there is such an insist, further discussion is needed to decide whether a prefix / suffix / anything else should be used. Newfraferz17 (talk) 01:09, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Naming of "bridge" BSicons

moved from User talk:Axpde/Archive 2

Hi Axpde, regarding your recent renaming of "bridge" icons (for example, exBRÜCKEa and exWBRÜCKEe), I feel that it may be a little awkward to name it as "start of a bridge" or "end of a bridge", even though it sounds logically fine; Firstly, the green bars suggest that there is elevation (for example, for light rail systems) and not necessary a bridge over something. Similarly, by putting three icons "track over start of a bridge", "elevated track" and "track over end of a bridge" together doesn't really fit - and to think if the "bridge" really stretches for so long if there are more "elevated track" icons. (Just a note: the "Ü" letter may also be quite inconvenient for many users, whose keyboards are not capable of inputing it.)

Hence, I suggest changing the name of these icons to "hSTRa", "hSTRe", "hSTRl" or "hSTRr" (with additional prefixes and/or suffixes if necessary) such that they can better portray the idea of start/end of elevation; if it is really necessary to depict a bridge, the icon BRÜCKE already exists. Please do consider about this. Thanks. Newfraferz17 (talk) 02:59, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Just have a look at sub-surface tracks:

• We start with TUNNELa (),
• then continue with tSTR ()
• then end with TUNNELe (),
• compare with TUNNEL1 ().

Now same with elevated tracks:

• We start with BRÜCKEa (),
• then continue with hSTR ()
• then end with BRÜCKEe (),
• compare with BRÜCKE ().

The reason why I don't like hSTRl or hSTRr is that this may confuse with the direction left or right. Each icon should have an ID that identifies it without any doubt. What's the main purpose of those icons? To indicate the start or end of an extented bridge. Nothing more, nothing less. So let's name them this way!

Other elevated tracks have different purposes, showing a special direction, showing turns in tracks and other things ... we need those hSTR... for other purposes than start or end of elevated track!

Regards axp_de^Hello! 15:41, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

help please

moved from User talk:Axpde/Archive 2

I wanted to rename File:UdKBHFre.svg (UdKBHFre) to udKBHFre, however changing uppercase to lowercase is not possible since it's considered the same file name (funny thing is that it's NOT the same when using them in WP projects). I tried to change the name to something else so I could change it back to lowercase. This obviously didn't work and now I'm stuck with File:DKBHFre.svg (DKBHFre). Could you please fix this mess I made?

There's also File:UdKBHFra.svg (UdKBHFra), File:UdKBHFla.svg (UdKBHFla) and File:UdKBHFle.svg (UdKBHFle), all with the same annoying uppercase. Wiebevl (talk) 20:43, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, my dear friend, how about starting the name with "BSicon"? ;-)

File:BSicon udKBHFre.svg, File:BSicon udKBHFra.svg, File:BSicon udKBHFle.svg, File:BSicon udKBHFla.svg. Although I don't understand, why is the "r"/"l" first? File:BSicon uKBHFr.svg is a terminal station to the right, so File:BSicon uKBHFre.svg should be a terminal station to the right too, that is "end" of a station continued over several lines ... axp_de^Hello! 22:41, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I really overlooked the BSicon prefix, how shameful ;-). Thanks for fixing! These are also terminal stations, however they have a 'vertical' orientation. How would you call them is this current name is incorrect? Wiebevl (talk) 11:25, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, never thought about it, have to admit I don't like those "blobs" spreading over several icons ... but at least the name of the "normal" icon should (IMHO) be a part of its name, e.g. File:BSicon udKBHFre.svg should contain the substring "udKBHFe", since it's an "enlarged" version of File:BSicon udKBHFe.svg. What do you think? axp_de^Hello! 17:43, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

"TurmBHF" icons

moved from User talk:Axpde/Archive 2

Hey Axpde, I've just devised a way to rename the seemingly ridiculous-ly named "TurmBHF" icons.

After some observation, and from inference when dealing with mTBHFu , I saw that the icons almost all compose of a junction of two different types of tracks, one over another, with a stop above that all. Hence, I suggest for these "TurmBHF" to take on a main central name "mTHST", for that will suit it better. For example, for uTurmBHFu File:BSicon uTurmBHFu.svg, it clearly shows that it is a remake of THSTu with just the main vertical track changed, so it should take on the name "umTHSTu". Similarly, eUTurmBHFo File:BSicon eUTurmBHFo.svg can be named as "mTHSTxo". As for the tunneled icons, like hutUTurmBHFo File:BSicon hutUTurmBHFo.svg, we can rename it to "mtTHSTto" for consistency first before making any improvements (or discussions about the icons' fates). I've reused the rename template just for convenience purposes. The icons that I had included the rename templates can be found on this list.

Any comments that you will want to put forth on this? NoNews! 15:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

No worries, I have most – if not all – of those icons on my watchlist. You're right, the iconID "TurmBHF" is a leftover of old times, I introdruced THST and TBHF for multilevel stations and stops, yet only for either heavy or light railway. It was quite some effort to invent a system of naming because there are seven different icons (station in/off use, straight in/off use, across in/off use; only in-off-off is forbidden/nonsense). With mixed stations we get into severe problems, now we have four colors for the station, four colors for the straight track, four colors for the track across ... 2x7=14 possibilites are already named (prefix " " and "u"), 16+6 combinations are nonsense (blue dot on red tracks and vice versa, station in use and tracks off use), makes 4x4x4-14-16-6=28 combinations not named yet. Considering seven icons for each prefix combination, we need a set of four(!) prefixes, but we only have "m" and "um" ... so what shall we do?!? axp_de^Hello! 18:40, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Use layering I suppose, saves a lot of trouble, for all the types of crossing there's an icon. Simply combine it with a 'BHF legende'-type icon and you're done. Wiebevl (talk) 22:40, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

By the way, last month you moved (File:BSicon tdBHF.svg) to (File:BSicon dtBHF.svg), this interferes with the TBHF icons, since commons does not discriminate between upper- and lowercase, I think it's best to undo the renaming. Wiebevl (talk) 07:38, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, to the question you've raised above, Axpde has expressed that he renamed it based on his naming convention, where "u,e,x,m" comes first (state/colour of track), "v,b,d" follows (width of icon) and "h,t" stays at the end (elevation of track). The last set is sometimes necessary to be used as a suffix as well (see hKRZho). Hence the rename.

As for the problem about the type of stations, I believe the type of station should follow the type of track on top, since any stations at the bottom shouldn't be seen. Thus, icons with lower track stations are physically ridiculous, since the bridge will have blocked the lower station from view and there is no way from which such a configuration can be seen from bird's eye view. Besides, owing to the little uses of these icons, there is not a need for them to exist now; if such a configuration is really necessary, overlying of icons should solve the problems.

Current bad files:

• TurmHST File:BSicon TurmHST.svg
• eTurmHST File:BSicon eTurmHST.svg
• eUTurmBHFu File:BSicon eUTurmBHFu.svg
• xUTurmBHFo File:BSicon xUTurmBHFo.svg

So:

1. Delete these lower track stations (only apply to mixed tracks).
2. Rename the remaining icons (there aren't any more ambiguities, are there?)
3. Correct file usages on projects of Wikimedia.
4. Completion!

NoNews! 08:20, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Just to add on, the renaming icons can be renamed as such, I think:

As a result, the two bad icons mentioned above are no longer needed and can be deleted. For the other icons, apart from the shape of the bridge and the displacement of the "under" railway, the rest should be all fine.

NoNews! 01:59, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

File:BSicon exvSTRr-exKRZo.svg

moved from User talk:Vunz

Thanks for this fix!  (exvSTRr-KRZo) :-) Tuvalkin (talk) 05:22, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

You're welcome :-) In the process I added the other 6 configurations of this icon. Wiebevl (talk) 08:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

What makes this icon different from   (vuxSTRr-xKRZo)? Please comment here. Useddenim (talk) 03:10, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

And now   (vuxSTR+l-xKRZ) &   (vxSTRl-uxKRZ): any particular reason that you are insisting on creating new icons with bad names? Useddenim (talk) 00:38, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

These mixed icons are at least consistent in naming among each other. I'm not insisting on creating new icons with bad names as you put it. If you have a better name, feel free to suggest it and be a little more collaborative please. I created and renamed hundreds of icons so don't be so patronizing. Thank you. Wiebevl (talk) 11:00, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

This question was also raised at Talk:BSicon/Renaming#vSTR-KRZ naming consistency, where all the posted opinion favours (exvuSTRr-KRZo) over (vuxSTRr-xKRZo). Well-established naming conventions use ex to indicate both lines disused. The only instances where individual xs are used within an icon name are complicated ones where there are more than two elements that need to be differentiated between, which does not apply in the current case. Useddenim (talk) 11:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Fine, do you have a good way of reverting the name change? It doesn't work. Wiebevl (talk) 09:47, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I guess us lowly filemovers will have to wait for axp_de or some other admin to take care of it. Useddenim (talk) 12:48, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

The others are changed btw and some new added. Wiebevl (talk) 12:58, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

BHFm legende

moved from File talk:BSicon lBHF-M.svg

I changed the {{Rename}} template on the file page, because I don't uderstand why the file have been renamed. In fact, I didn't created it to use in a legend, but to make lines as :

The title NKB means Nicht-Kreuzungsbahnhof (I don't speak Deutsch, so I got this translation with Google Translate), and it represents an interchange station where there is no straight. Beacause it is a new type of BSicon, I categorized it in Category:Icons for railway descriptions/experimental. Could you revert renaming or give a better title ? (and excuse me for my bad english... ) --Pic-Sou (talk) 12:43, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

There is an existing set of icons {see en:Wikipedia:Route diagram template/Catalog of pictograms/stations#Between lines) which this icon fits into. Also, the suffix "_legende" is applied to all icons without any rail lines in them.Useddenim (talk) 16:06, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Also, I uploaded a new version with the correct colour to match the name. (The u prefix indicates the blue icon set.) Useddenim (talk) 21:00, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

File:BSicon vSTRlf-rotccw90.svg

moved from User talk:Vunz

Hallo Wiebevl, du hast leider vergessen eine Rename-Begründung anzugeben (File:BSicon vSTRlf-rotccw90.svg). Wieso hast du sie verschoben und wieso willst du den Redir löschen lassen? Die Datei gibt es seit 2008 - da sollte der Redir nicht gelöscht werden - sie kann an diversen Stellen verlinkt sein. Viele Grüße --Saibo (Δ) 22:27, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

This is a more consistent name, therefore the file is renamed. Since the redirect is not in use it can be safely removed. Wiebevl (talk) 07:33, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

The File:BSicon vSTRlf-rotccw90.svg is in use .... by the way - not in use is no reason to delete a redir. They should only be deleted if they are wrong (e.g. the wrong species at biology pictures). This was just inconsistent. Cheers --Saibo (Δ) 18:45, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

This BSicon is only used on a talk page archive and on an "automated list of everything". The name of this BSicon is complete nonsense, obviously invented by someone unable to understand German or the consisting naming scheme. Therefore it is neccessary to delete those files/redirects to avoid new BSicons with similiar names! axp_de^Hello! 22:39, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Fully agreed, Axpde. This is one case where name stability is trumped over by the “danger” that bad (=inconsistent, uncenventional) names, once allowed to persist even as redirects, will inspire hesitant creators of new icons to misname them (ppl such as me!).

Those two uses Saibo links to can be dealt with by

1. changing the said archived discussion (with a note, for record sake), and
2. ignoring the “automated list of everything” (edited by me) because it is… automated (and) the STRlf-rotccw90 row will go away anyhow, as there’s only one icon using that name.

--Tuvalkin (talk) 00:52, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I do not see how a single "non-standard" redir which is only used on two dead pages can lead to other bad names. I am not into this BS icon stuff so you got me two by one. ;-) Okay. And I do not care about this file. But please step back from redir deleteion of other files if possible - as a general reminder. And: use a rename comment next time please. Cheers --Saibo (Δ) 00:58, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Your assistence ...

Moved from User talk:Vunz.

Hi Wiebevl, another time we need your assistence in naming BSicons, please have a look at File talk:BSicon exvBHFl.svg! Groetjes a×p_de^Hello! 11:14, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I posted my opinion on this one, Tschüs! Wiebevl (talk) 21:20, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

file move

Moved from User talk:Vunz.

Hi Wiebevl,

what do you think about this file move. IMHO the old name was ok ... a×p_de^Hello! 15:55, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

RDTs that use this icon have already been changed, and it was one of the few "vt" icons that hadn't been corrected (probably because it had been hiding behind a redirect). Useddenim (talk) 19:46, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, usually "vt" is the correct order if there is only one root ID following, but as I said long time before, I won't intervene with all "v" icons, that's Wiebevl's job ;-) a×p_de^Hello! 20:51, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

"vt" was the preferred order. There were some "tv" icons however. But naming them all "tv" is at least consistent. Wiebevl (talk) 09:40, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Vanished icon

Moved from en:Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template/Catalog of pictograms/stations.

I used to have  (mTHSTACCu) with a closed ACC station in the color like this icon  (ueHSTq), but now it is gone, and the "bad icon" fixers replaced it with an icon that was wrong twice over. j.reed (talk) 03:18, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Show me the edits. Show me the log. The only file I'm aware of was  (uemTHSTACCu). Your icon (which was one of the awful TurmBHF with messed up prefixes, I believe) should have been  (emTHSTACCu), but without anything other than an unsupported ""bad icon" fixers replaced it with an icon that was wrong twice over", we can't do anything to fix it. (not to mention this is not the conversation to bring this up in) Circéus (talk) 03:43, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Lets fix it, but please discuss here. --Tuvalkin (talk) 03:34, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Hm, or here. --Tuvalkin (talk) 04:08, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't know where to take these conversations anymore, I made these maybe a year and a half ago, and suddenly they're a problem. I've taken the rest of the conversation elsewhere. I had even notified the people that requested the deleting and I thought I even removed the deletion request since the icon was a unique icon, but named wrong, but it still got deleted. I cannot link you to a deleted icon, because it doesn't exist. I cannot find the history of the icon beyond the name which was BSicon_TurmHST. j.reed (talk) 21:29, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

More bad BSicon names

moved from User talk:Axpde

For your consideration:

•   (muKBFa) » KBHFame → umSWBHF  Done
•   (muKBFe) » KBHFema → mSWBHF  Done
•   (muBHF) » umBHFra → umSWBHFr  Done
•   (muKBFad) » KBHFamr → mSWKBHFar  Done
•   (muKBFau) » KBHFemr → mSWKBHFer  Done

1. Should be um not mu OK
2. Should be KBHF not KBF OK
3. Should be a/e not d/u OK
4. r suffix missing OK

•   (muexBHF) » uemBHF OK but the ball should be in foreground, just as  (ueBHF)  Done
•   (muexHST) » uemHST → dto.  Done

1. e not ex for station out-of-use on line in use

Other than that, I think they're fine!  :•) Useddenim (talk) 13:32, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

I feared the day those icons are about to be renamed ... ;-) a×p_de^Hello! 14:44, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Hey, I can do the dirty work; I just need some input on what they should be named! (My thoughts are in italics to the right of the existing names.) Useddenim (talk) 20:57, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Since you didn't say otherwise, I assume that my sugestions were OK. Useddenim (talk) 18:13, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Damn, I hoped you wouldn't notice ...

Well, I think we need some more Base-IDs to make the names unambiguous ...

• ABHF = Anschlussbahnhof (connection Station)
• SWBHF = Spur- bzw. Systemwechselbahnhof (change-of-gauge/system station)

What do you think? Regards a×p_de^Hello! 19:01, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

I think I prefer SWBHF, because then there's no confusion with the A (Autobahn) prefix. (And before you say that there's no such thing as a station on a highway, I would suggest that a rest-stop could certainly qualify.)
As an aside, I would only define it as "change-of-system" as RDTs don't normally recognize different gauges (and we'll leave the ones that do alone to their creators). (The French, on the other hand, sometimes seem to be all about various gauges, and I have just recently had to remove some of their narrow-line icons from the en categories.)
Useddenim (talk) 20:52, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

P.S. I know you don't usually get involved with parallel lines icons, but some strange new compound ones have been recently added, and any thought would be welcome: see User talk:Wiebevl#More icon renaming....
Also, Bility wrote this script for me to catch newly-uploaded (i.e. within the last 7 days) BSicon_*.svg files, which you may find useful.
Useddenim (talk) 21:54, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Another bad name

moved from User talk:Axpde

  (utLIFTrut): the best that I could think of is (utHST+l) (as utHSTl would be comparable to  (utBHFl)). Yes? no? maybe? Useddenim (talk) 14:55, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I think it the root ought to be THST: (utTHST+l). With that root, issues with transfer stations are impossible, so you can even consider (utTHSTl), as "+l" implies (IIRC) a merge from that direction. Circeus (talk) 17:31, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

That works for me. Useddenim (talk) 18:29, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Have no better idea at the moment ;-) a×p_de^Hello! 21:22, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

45 deg. corner in double-across name doubt

Help me with this one: I was looking here and this name   (v-STR2q) doesnt look to good. Shouldn’t have a "q", should it? (PS: There seems to be a thumbnail delay.) --Tuvalkin (talk) 21:31, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Couldn't find it, could you name the commons link to it? File:BSicon v-STR2q.svg doesn't exist ... do mean en:File:BSicon v-STR2q.svg? a×p_de^Hello! 21:59, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

I can see it here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BSiscon_v-STR2q.svg. Gremlins at work? :-\ --Tuvalkin (talk) 22:25, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Epic typo fail. Means I should go to sleep. :-\ --Tuvalkin (talk) 22:27, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

There IS a naming problem: it't clearly not a -q icon, and should probably something like   (v-STR2+r). Circeus (talk) 23:17, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Renamed (for now, until something better is proposed). Useddenim (talk) 01:13, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

What else could it be (well, within that weirdo naming scheme, which I admittedly do not actually understand)? It's just a displaced version of  (STR2+r)... Circeus (talk) 01:24, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

More icon renaming...

moved from User talk:Wiebevl

User:Tener has created a series of new icons that I beleive have "bad" names, which I propose to change:

New icon	Proposed rename	Based on	Comment
(vSTRa-gl)	vSTRa-STRl	(vSTRa-) +  (v-STRl)	(dWgl) +   (dXl+r)
(vSTRe-g+l)	vSTRe-STR+l	(vSTRe-) +  (v-STR+l)	(dWg+l) +   (dXr+l)
(vSTRa-gr)	vSTRr-STRa	(vSTRr-) +   (v-STRa)	(dXr+l) +  (dWgr)
(vSTRe-g+r)	vSTR+r-STRe	(vSTR+r-) +   (v-STRe)	(dXl+r) +  (dWg+r)
In all of the above cases, "g" is redundant (and actually implies upward direction).
These are horrible, especially since using two half width icons would fit much better, I agree on your naming however. Wiebevl (talk) 08:24, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
(vSTRgl-gl)	vSTRr-STRgl	(vSTRr-) +  (vSTRgl)	agreed
(vSTRg+l-g+r)	vSTR+r-STRg+l	(vSTR+r-) +  (vSTRg+l)	agreed
(vSTRgr-gr)	vSTRgr-STRl	(vSTRgr) +  (v-STRl)	agreed
(vSTRg+r-g+l)	vSTRg+r-STR+l	(vSTRg+r) +  (v-STR+l)	agreed
(However, I am not entirely happy with this second group, which could be named as follows, but there remains the issue of non-standard notation for the start/end of double track:)
I agree naming is tricky for those ones due to the non-standard naming. However, considering the vSTRgx part the primary component, where 'x' is either 'r', 'l', '+r' or '+l'. I would suggest the above naming for simplicity. Wiebevl (talk) 08:24, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
(vSTRgl-gl)	vABZr-STRle	(ABZrf) +  (STRlf)
(vSTRg+l-g+r)	vABZ+ra-STR+la	(ABZlg) +  (STRrg)
(vSTRgr-gr)	vSTRr-ABZle	(STRrf) +  (ABZlf)
(vSTRg+r-g+l)	vSTR+r-ABZ+la	(STRlg) +  (ABZrg)

Useddenim (talk) 17:26, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

First impression, things are getting more and more complicated. I prefer to use the half-width icons or overlay by which method you can easily create all the above cases. Besides that these icons are made up with a drawing program and way to big in bytes. See my comments above :-) Wiebevl (talk) 08:24, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree that many of the new overly-complicated icons can also be created with overlays, but unfortunately some editors don't seem to like using overlays.
I do however want to know how to place two half-width icons into a cell in an RDT that is composed of regular square icons? Useddenim (talk) 19:02, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Two half-width icons take the place of one 'regular' square icon. This is a good example where half width icons are combined with 'regular' ones. However, the RDT template must be adjusted to cope with half width icons. Wiebevl (talk) 09:45, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

OK, but unless & until the {{BS-template}} is rewritten, that won't make any difference to en:Wikipedia, and I'm certainly not up to the task. Useddenim (talk) 10:46, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

En WP can cope with half-width icons admirably. See, for example, en:Template:Medway Towns RDT, where the first ten rows are either four full-width icons, or three full- with two half-width icons (the last five rows are composed entirely of full-width icons). --Redrose64 (talk) 13:46, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I'm the author of these icons. I used Inkscape for creating them, starting from existing ones. I've seen also that .svg files are text-editable, but I don't know how to manage them.

Besides that, BSx templates series are implemented in it:wiki, where I do my "work", but half-width icons look huge and overlays are ignored. You can give a look at it:Utente:Tener/Sandbox5, a test page in which I included the railway tracks from en:Template:Medway Towns RDT and overlays from en:Wikipedia:Route_diagram_template#Overlay. Usually, it:wiki railway schemes adopt it:Template:Percorso fer, it:Template:Percorso fer2 and it:Template:Percorso fer5 instead of BSx.--Tener (talk) 22:13, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Interchanging regular icons with half-width icons doesn't look so nice here it:Utente:Tener/Sandbox5. The only solution would be adjusting the RDT template which is something I don't know how to do. Text editing icons is pretty straightforward, but I agree it might take some time to 'read' the icons. If you need help ,let me know! Wiebevl (talk) 09:32, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I think that the problem at it:Utente:Tener/Sandbox5 is because the BS3/BS4/BS5 templates, or their subtemplates, are drawing the icons to constant 20px width, and not the constant 20px height that the German and English equivalents use (see en:Template:BSpx). This may be overridden quite simply for your Italian examples: add |PX=x20px to each row, as in {{BS5|CONTgq|dKRZo|dABZq+l|BHFq|xABZgr||station name|PX=x20px}}. You can make this a general change by amending it:Template:BSpx. --Redrose64 (talk) 14:18, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

As you can see now, the scheme in it:Utente:Tener/Sandbox5 is showing correct half-width icons, after substituting {{BSx}} templates with homologue {{Percorso ferx}} italian ones (only available for 1, 2 or 5 cells in a row). Overlays, however, continue to being neglected. --Tener (talk) 14:56, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Road crossings

Moved to Talk:BSicon/Renaming/Roads#Road crossings

Proper names of the mixed ENDE BSicon set

moved from User talk:Axpde/Archive 3#Proper names of the mixed ENDE BSicon set

Hey Axpde, I've just looked through the list of obsolete icon names and found the following set in the mixed set category.

Old name	Icon	New name
muENDEa	File:BSicon muENDEa.svg	umENDE
muENDEe	File:BSicon muENDEe.svg	mENDE
mueENDEa	File:BSicon mueENDEa.svg	uemENDE
mueENDEe	File:BSicon mueENDEe.svg	xmENDE
meueENDEa	File:BSicon meueENDEa.svg	uexmENDE
meueENDEe	File:BSicon meueENDEe.svg	exmENDE
umENDExe	File:BSicon umENDExe.svg	uxmENDE
umENDExa	File:BSicon umENDExa.svg	emENDE

For this set, we can either adopt the umENDExa naming style (though it will be difficult in determining the correct names for "mu" and "meue" icons), or we can adopt a central name similar to the WECHSEL set. Any preferences? NoNews! 11:51, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Since there is no real "end" of track (at least by half of those icons) and similiar to "WECHSEL" we should get rid of the "a" and "e" suffices. And then prefices are in view of travel direction ... axp_de^Hello! 18:43, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Shouldn’t the black tack be grey in those icons where both sides of the track are closed, like  (uexmENDE) as in  (exENDEa)+ (uexENDEe)? Tuvalkin (talk) 20:57, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Yep, you're right, that'd be logical! Feel free to change it ;-) Regards axp_de^Hello! 21:33, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

2 misnamed corners

moved from en:User talk:Tuvalkin#BSIcons

Can you look into   (vÜWc4) and   (vÜWc2)? It looks like the images are posted backwards to the names according to the naming convention, i.e. corner 2 is the bottom right corner but the icon that has the rail there is labeled as corner 4. Thanks for your help! BT14 (talk) 15:59, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Swapped. a×p_de^Hello! 20:45, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Swapped names but usage of these two icons in 9 articles of 2 projects not fixed. I’m doing it now: 2 done, 7 to go. --Tuvalkin (talk) 14:10, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

 Done --Tuvalkin (talk) 14:48, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

File:BSicon KRZSTRr.svg et al.

  (KRZSTRr): Do these icons need a new root? Useddenim (talk) 16:28, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I dunno, I think not — I created a lot of variations, as I was at it, but the original is   (KRZSTRlg) (which I refer to as derivative ancestor in the new icons I uploaded), which was created in Dec.2010 by User:Lliura already with the name root KRZSTR. I know that this is not a good name (cross & straight?), but I thought better than leave it than create yet a new name myself, which could be also a bad one.

Note also that this family is not yet covered in wp:en’s en:Wikipedia:Route_diagram_template/Catalog_of_pictograms/branchings#Two_curves. The whole family is:

•   (KRZSTR+l)   (mKRZSTR+l)   (umKRZSTR+l)
•   (KRZSTRlf)   (mKRZSTR+r)   (umKRZSTR+r)
•   (KRZSTRlg)   (mKRZSTRl)    (umKRZSTRl)
•   (KRZSTRr)    (mKRZSTRr)    (umKRZSTRr)

And yes, I did mess up with some of the names, keeping old ones unchanged bu using updated naming rules for new ones. --Tuvalkin (talk) 17:30, 3 October 2011 (UTC) Upd: --Tuvalkin (talk) 00:08, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Giving it some thought, I note that there are two separate lines here (not branching), both coming from (or going to) the same point/direction on the edge of the icon, one above the other, and from there going to (or thereto coming from) opposite directions. Although it seems a derivative of   (ABZgf), the lines do not branch/join at the common point, as they are on separate grades, so it is more akin to  (KRWr+r). Indeed new names using KRW as root and u/o for the bridge might be the best name for this. (And maybe the whole set should be redrawn to match the geometry of KRW instead.) Comments, please? --Tuvalkin (talk) 17:30, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

No, KRW has too specific a meaning to me. These are functionally halves of the  (vÜWB) set (i.e.  (vÜWBl); KRW are halves of  (vÜST))... which happens to have no single-line equivalent. Sounds like problem solved to me:

•   (KRZSTR+l) →  (ÜWBo+l)
•   (KRZSTRlf) →  (ÜWBol)
•   (KRZSTRlg) →  (ÜWBo+r)
•   (KRZSTRr) →  (ÜWBor)

The direction suffix has the attributes of the STR segment in the icon. Without -o you get flat crossings halves ÜWBl and ÜWBr (or ar those the same as   (ABZgf)/  (ABZfg)?), and declinations for flat/over (-u is not possible), mixed, -x, -e etc. etc.

Circeus (talk) 18:46, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

These being halves of  (vÜWBl) etc. is on the spot and IMO the right approach for naming. Your reply raises other questions, but I’ll come back to them later. Thanks! --Tuvalkin (talk) 20:27, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

These are not to be taken as topologically akin to   (ABZgf)/  (ABZfg): Since there’s grade separation, no junction/branching is intended, and the equivalent flat crossing is  (vÜWB). The icon family created by User:Lliura (and expanded by me), with the name KRZSTR, shared geometry with   (ABZfg) etc. (lines in the crossing point meeting the icon edge midpoint both at 90º) purely for practical reasons of drawing technique limitations; for accurate and clear diagramming, the lines at the bridge point must exit the icon boundary at 45º, like those in the KRW/vÜWB/vÜST families.

junction File:BSicon KRZSTR+l.svg File:BSicon KRZSTRr.svg bridge cross NEW&improved! bridge cross flat cross

Therefore I’m now creating/uploading new icons, already named ÜWBo as suggested above by User:Circeus, intended to replace their KRZSTR equivalents. --Tuvalkin (talk) 00:08, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Is there any use to keeping the KRZSTR at all then? Your icons are little less than a graphical upgrade on those. Circeus (talk) 00:25, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

My thought exactly. The geometry of KRZSTR, with the two-level lines meeting along the same axis, would be meaningful only in cases of a two-level bridge (sorta like these two, if they had rail on both levels), or a tunnel parallel to and under a surface line or another tunnel — and branching to opposite directions at the end(s). And even those are to be properly diagrammated with  (vSTR-)& (tv-STR) and other more complex overlaying, I think, for clarity. (Things like the multilevel bridges here and here, f.i., are different because the road is not the main subject of the diagram.) So, IMO, we can do away with KRZSTR, replacing its scarce use with better named and more clear equivalents in this new ÜWBo set. --Tuvalkin (talk) 01:05, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I’m not creating the whole set with 45° angles (so far only 3 of 12 done with 90º curves, out of 64 possible combinations blue/red // used/unused) right now because I’m not fully happy with the geometric details of the bridge. I’d love some input on that, too. --Tuvalkin (talk) 01:07, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Okay,  (ÜWt3) is the bridge geometry needed to make this, with the proper transformations. It’s on! --Tuvalkin (talk) 01:48, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, right now we only need enough to replace those of the KRZSTR icons that are in use. as to the bridge, it's hard to tell, but I think it's not at a 45°? In any case I think it doesn't look parallel enough to the rail line. Circeus (talk) 01:33, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

The bridge (half) is not necassarily parallel to the upper level track and/or orthogonal to the lower level track: It is shaped and turned to hide the “stump” of the lower track, in order to avoid multiple arguments in the SVG stroke-dasharray property, as the Mediawiki gizmo that churns out the PNG thumbnails chokes on them. --Tuvalkin (talk) 01:48, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Does the MediaWiki svg converter allows clipping? Seems like a more useful approach than stroke-dasharray... Circeus (talk) 02:52, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

As I understand, clipping is even shakier ground. Sarang has good ideas and knowledge in this regard, and he has helped out in “disgarbaging” the SVG code of some of our BS icons — here and here, f.i. --Tuvalkin (talk) 03:13, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I’m doing it now. This table will be filling up as I do.

•  (ÜWBo+l)    (mÜWBo+l)    (umÜWBo+l)    (uÜWBo+l)
•  (ÜWBol)     (mÜWBol)     (umÜWBol)     (uÜWBol)
•  (ÜWBo+r)    (mÜWBo+r)    (umÜWBo+r)    (uÜWBo+r)
•  (ÜWBor)     (mÜWBor)     (umÜWBor)     (uÜWBor)
•  (eÜWBo+l)   (emÜWBo+l)   (uemÜWBo+l)   (ueÜWBo+l)
•  (eÜWBol)    (emÜWBol)    (uemÜWBol)    (ueÜWBol)
•  (eÜWBo+r)   (emÜWBo+r)   (uemÜWBo+r)   (ueÜWBo+r)
•  (eÜWBor)    (emÜWBor)    (uemÜWBor)    (ueÜWBor)
•  (xÜWBo+l)   (xmÜWBo+l)   (uxmÜWBo+l)   (uxÜWBo+l)
•  (xÜWBol)    (xmÜWBol)    (uxmÜWBol)    (uxÜWBol)
•  (xÜWBo+r)   (xmÜWBo+r)   (uxmÜWBo+r)   (uxÜWBo+r)
•  (xÜWBor)    (xmÜWBor)    (uxmÜWBor)    (uxÜWBor)
•  (exÜWBo+l)  (exmÜWBo+l)  (uexmÜWBo+l)  (uexÜWBo+l)
•  (exÜWBol)   (exmÜWBol)   (uexmÜWBol)   (uexÜWBol)
•  (exÜWBo+r)  (exmÜWBo+r)  (uexmÜWBo+r)  (uexÜWBo+r)
•  (exÜWBor)   (exmÜWBor)   (uexmÜWBor)   (uexÜWBor)

Also: I made a stupid mistake in the descriptions and discussion: These lines are not crossing at 45º; the angle (the same as used in the KRW/vÜWB/vÜST sets) is however visible enough to notice that this would not be branching/joining if is were at the same level. --Tuvalkin (talk) 02:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

WASSER icons

Current Old	Description	Should be New	Equivalent rail icon
(vexWASSERrg)	From centre to right	(vWASSERa-)	(vSTRa-)
(evWASSER)	Shifted right	(vWASSER-)	(vSTR-)
(vexWASSERlf)	From right to centre	(vWASSERe-)	(vSTRe-)
(vexWASSERlg)	From centre to left	(v-WASSERa)	(v-STRa)
(veWASSER)	Shifted left	(v-WASSER)	(v-STR)
(vexWASSERrf)	From left to centre	(v-WASSERe)	(v-STRe)

Useddenim (talk) 12:37, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I've added the four missing equivalent rail icons. They are not necessarily named correctly. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:05, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Fixed Useddenim (talk) 21:20, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

 Comment sounds reasonable to me a×p_de^Hello! 19:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

 Done. Useddenim (talk) 13:00, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

vSTR-KRZ naming consistency

about en: Wikipedia:Route diagram template/Catalog of pictograms/parallel crossings and crossovers #One line turns

We need to come to some sort of agreement on this (rather than starting an edit war):

•  (exvSTR+r-KRZo)
•  (exvSTR+r-KRZu)
•  (exvSTR+l-KRZu)
•  (exvSTR+l-KRZo)
•  (uexvSTR+l-KRZo)
•  (exvSTRl-KRZo)
•  (exvSTRl-KRZu)
•  (exvSTRr-KRZu)
•  (exvSTRr-KRZo)
•  (exvuSTRr-KRZo)? no; Wiebevl insists on the non-standard   (vuxSTRr-xKRZo) (but I can't think of any other parallel lines icon that is of the form xRIGHT-xLEFT instead of exRIGHT-LEFT). Useddenim (talk) 03:06, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm with the exv- side, though I find that base to have separate naming issues. Circeus (talk)

Naming used/unused

Moved from en:Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template/Catalog of pictograms/parallel crossings and crossovers

Bummer, I think I mixed up what's used/unused here. Left, right? The main line is single and curves to join a horizontal double-parallel line — so which is right and left? (Note that, against my opinion on the matter, there's no implicit direction for horizontal double-parallel lines, unlike verticals, so left and right of the driver do not apply — there's only the viewer’s up and down.) --Tuvalkin (talk) 02:44, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

x means the primary line is out of use, e the secondary. In this case, the primary would be the one entering from the top. So, yes, they're OK. Useddenim (talk) 00:20, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Great to hear it. Actually that was the criterium I followed, "x" being closed and thus "xo" and "xu" show which should be closed, over or under the bridge, but then the table headings here need to be fixed, as they refer to left and right. --Tuvalkin (talk) 01:19, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Fixed Useddenim (talk) 14:02, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

As far as naming goes, IMHO the easiest way to figure out a transverse parallel icon (if it's not an obvious 90° rotation like  (vSTR) &  (vSTRq)) is to think of them as a pair of regular icons stacked one above the other:   (uexSTRl-STR+l) =  (uexSTRlf) ⁄  (uexSTRrg) (note no v prefix). Useddenim (talk) 00:20, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Icons for track crossing generic road

Moved to Talk:BSicon/Renaming/Roads#Icons for track crossing generic road