File talk:Tripolitanian Front.svg/Archive 1

Animation

Can anyone make an animation?? Mixx321 (talk) 22:02, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I could make a GIF that shows the advance of loyalists. A more interesting one would be the Sidra Gulf front. This might require some research though and I'm quiet busy these days. If someone could provide me of the dates smaller towns were liberated and occupied I could easily make one.--Rafy (talk) 10:55, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Kikla

Should there be some indication of the capture of Kikla by Gaddafist forces? Perhaps a green arrow? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 01:07, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Green symbols represent current attacks by Gaddafi troops. the town was captured a week ago and the front-line lies further to the west now. --Rafy (talk) 10:47, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Ah, ok. Maybe green numbers, then? I think it would help to show the progression of the conflict. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 11:25, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I will do it in the next update.--Rafy (talk) 12:47, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Rebel capture of Wazin border crossing

Shouldn't the map be updated to reflect this? (the region turned red and the green arrow removed)

This looks to be the case: [1] ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:59, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Further confirmation from today's AJE Live Blog:

1:28pm

Al Jazeera Arabic channel's reporter from the Tunisian side has reported that the rebels’ flag is now raised on the Wazin crossing.

Eye witnesses said that about 100 Gaddafi forces fighters, thought to have been guarding the crossing, have fled to Tunisian side after being attacked by the rebels.

Rebels’ victory is a surprise because they had been heavily shelled by Gaddafi forces in the last few days.

A Tunisian hospital near Wazin crossing is now treating people injured in Libya, including some Gaddafi troops.

1:39pm

Wazin crossing now reported to be under rebel control.

This is pretty clear; the border crossing is in rebel hands. The map should be changed. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:08, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Recapture

Wazzin is back in Libyan hands, i think the map should be changed.

Gaddafists did indeed retake Wazzin today. However, the Reuters Twitter reports that the town has been retaken by rebels. Let's wait for the dust to settle on this one. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:06, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Yafren

Yarfen is back in Libyan hands; the map should reflect this

Didn't believe it at first, but Yafren (not "Yarfen", ya schmuck) has indeed fallen to loyalists: [2]. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:57, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

I just updated the map slightly based on Battles of the Nafusa Mountains, although the information flow from the Western Mountain area is very sparse. Elllit (talk) 12:16, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Is reportedly in rebel hands

Yafren appears to be in rebel hands, although it is under siege. [3]

fixed it. Looks like it had never fallen--Rafy (talk) 19:16, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I think that the rebels had to withdraw from the city, because I heard a relation of a rebel fighter that they flee from the city to the surrounding villages to regroup (24 April?). They just came back when the loyalist forces didn't expect no move from there side or part of loyalist forces marched to Zintan, because I've read that there were many attacks from the east from where they were not conducted before (north was the traditional direction).

black bar

What is the black bar in the bottom left corner near Wazzin? Ansh666 (talk) 16:30, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Just an svg glitch. Hope the last update fixed it.--Rafy (talk) 16:57, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

It did. Thanks. Don't know what i did wrong there :-/. Elllit (talk) 18:30, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

The black bar may be gone but it now Yafren is shown as in rebel hands. 81.98.165.235 20:31, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Problem with Wazen

I see that Wazzin was captured by rebels 21 February again from there own hands 23 February and the loyalists had retaken it at 2 March and it is still in there hands? Someone should change it to the right chronology, I think.

I think the right chronology is that the rebels took it on February 23, loyalists retook it on March 2, rebels again took it on April 21, loyalists again retook it on April 28, rebels again took it on April 29. EkoGraf

Well, since the town was lost to rebels after less than 24 hours one could assume that wasn't yet fully secured by loyalists in 28 April. There is no need to clutter the map with dates.--Rafy (talk) 10:49, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I understand, but look on the map. There are two dates of taking of the town in February by rebels (21st and 23rd) and and one of retaking by loyalist forces in March. I see that and nobody else?

Thanks, I see now what the problem is. the date should have been 24 April.--Rafy (talk) 22:58, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Unclear situations in Wazzin and Yafren

I think as with the main Libya map there should be a 3rd colour for unclear situations, seeing as Yafren and Wazzin are being captured and re-captured on a fairly regular basis, with any hold that either the Libyans or the rebels have being very tenuous. Thoughts please 81.98.165.235 12:50, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

New arrows

In my opinion in this map should be added a new kind of an arrow. Red (for the rebels). Like in other maps. They should be directed to south and west from Misrata. Or maybe it is too quick? What do you think?

That crossed my mind , but until now we only have rebel sources claiming advances westward.--Rafy (talk) 00:26, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

It's hard in war reality to verify any information. On the conference about Festung Breslau in Wrocław (Poland) I've heard a quotation from Goebbels: "At war there are no informations, there is propaganda".

You can't, by all means, compare WWII with modern armed conflicts. Nowadays there are a lot of brave journalists in those regions without any bounds (ok, maybe their employee). They show both sides and try to uncover the truth as good as they can. I think we can trust in them, the statements of the belligerents... that's something different. Elllit (talk) 18:49, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes. The journalists from democratic countries do there work in best way they can, surely. But for example answer yourself from when we know very good what is happening in Misrata? What we know now about military campaign in Nafusa Mountains? We see this conflict only from one side - the rebels side, because the regime do not know such obviousnesses like freedom of speech and expression. That quotation I would assign to the regime way of informing the world. Even in my beloved country (Poland), which is included since 1989 to the democratic world my prime minister told us that we are not involved in this Libyan conflict, but our best ship "Rear-admiral Xawery Czernicki" is the headquarter of NATO anti-mine group on the Mediterranean Sea to protect this part of sea routes from mines, so from 29 April to 5 May we took part.

Returning to the arrows we can make one that tells the rebels are heading west to Zliten.

AFP reports that rebels reached gates of Zliten and Tavarga what clearly says about their offensive in direction of Zliten and Sirt [4], we should add red arrows and increase the read area to the gates of both Zliten and Tavarga. --EllsworthSK (talk) 17:10, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I think the arrows ar e wrong. I`ve just read that the Rebels have decided to stay in Misrata because they are afraid of being defaected in Zliten: "Salam denied earlier reports suggesting that that rebels were advancing toward the western city of Zlitan, which would be the next step on the road to Tripoli. “The rebels agreed that it is better not to move forward or open new fronts,” he said. He added, “It will be a big risk to advance. Anything could happen and cost us heavy causalities. This is not the right decision to take right now.”" --Ave César Filito (talk) 20:23, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Got rid of arrows.--Rafy (talk) 10:50, 17 May 2011 (U

Nafusa late may

How we can show on map situation like this: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/05/21/libya.zintan/ Half of city Rayayan support loyalist and half support rebels. No fights between them.

No fights between the townspeople, maybe, but apparently loyalists are besieging the eastern half of the city.

On another topic: Yafran showed up for the first time in a long while on the AJE Live Blog. This post talks about how the city is cut off from vital supplies, which makes me think the city is surrounded. Rebel-made maps like this one seem to confirm this, stating that Yafran and neighbouring al-Qalaa have been "completely cut off from" the main strip of rebel control in the Nafusa mountains. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:55, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

I made some subtle updates were Yafren is cutoff and rayayna is in a "vague" zone.--Rafy (talk) 17:42, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

It looks the same still... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:53, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Weird the map I uploaded was already modified. Thumbnails issue? Well lets try again.--Rafy (talk) 18:25, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, i think it's a thumbnails issue. The full size map displays the changes fine, but the smaller one does not... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:34, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Looks like you uploaded the old one ;) Elllit (talk) 19:02, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Check the full-size map; this is I think just a WikiGlitch. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:11, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

That's crazy, once I reverted to the older one suddenly show its true form. Surely can't be anyone but the CIA behind this .--Rafy (talk) 22:50, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Wow, I checked three times even the full sized maps...! Because i thought i placed some click wrong. Now the history is different and even the thumbnails are correct. I concur with Rafy... the CIA should stop messing with the map ;) Elllit (talk) 07:36, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

---

Maybe it is good idea to have more detailed map. It will allow us to see details about cities - for example somethink like Misrata map with parts of city under different posesion.

There is already a map about Tripoli and another for Misrata. However, creating detailed maps showing close up details of Nafusa's tiny villages is: a) impossible since there are no detailed maps anywhere about those villages. b) We simply don't have that many info as there are no journalists operating there and no briefing from any side on what has happened there. so I'm afraid that's the best we can do.--Rafy (talk) 17:48, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

There may not be any great maps now, but Google Maps has been improving their coverage of the region throughout the conflict. I've noticed more and more towns being added over time. Earlier on, I could not locate ar-Rujban, al-Galaa, or Kikla on the map, but now they are there. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:21, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Latest from Yafran and al-Galaa

At last, some clear information comes out on the encircled towns of Yafran and al-Galaa. This article says that western Yafran, including the hospital, is under loyalist control, while the remaining rebels hold out in the eastern half. Al-Galaa (which I seem to recall as being just west of Yafran) is still entirely in rebel hands, but is under very heavy siege and completely surrounded. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:39, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Just added it. BTW what's happening there? should we create a new file?

The information is too patchy to make a new file, IMO, but perhaps an inset in this map showing the division on Yafran between the two sides and the encirclement of al-Galaa would be good. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:28, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I wasn't clear there, I meant the issue with image rendering... I still see an old version there.--Rafy (talk) 17:18, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, okay. I don't know what's up with the rendering. Everything shows up fine on the full-scale map, but the main map lags behind. Just a glitch, it seems. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:28, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

According to AlJazeera's Libya live blog: "Gaddafi forces have since retreated, and continue to stay in Reyayna, about 3 km northeast of Zintan." Is there a message abour situation in Reyayna? Last info was for 50:50 situation there.

No definitive word on whether or not the 50/50 situation has changed, though one wonders if the loyalist assault on Thursday was successful, given the content of that update. Wait a bit and see if anything comes up. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:36, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

What about Kikla - last two maps shows Kikla with different control of city?

Kikla has been under loyalist occupation since April 4. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:43, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Kikla

Wondering why you put Kikla back into rebel-held territory in the Nafusa mountains? There have been no reports that Kikla was recaptured by the rebels. EkoGraf (talk) 05:42, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

It's not, its just at the edge of the front-line but still under loyalists control as seen from the date of which it fell to them.--Rafy talk 11:13, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh, OK, looked rebel-held to me. Sorry. EkoGraf (talk) 15:12, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Why did you revert your last edit on the Nafusa map? You added a fourth arrow that nicely points that loyalist forces are attempting to advance both at Zintan and at Yefren on the eastern part of the mountains. Plus, you correctly moved the rebel-held territory from Kikla, which was still looking like it was in rebel territory and not loyalist. So what happened? EkoGraf (talk) 02:52, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

FINALY we got information on what's going on at Yefren. A man who managed to get out of there a few days ago gave this report [5]. It seems loyalists have managed to take the western part of the town, including the hospital, while some 500 rebels are still holding out in the eastern section of the town. The rebel commander in Zintan has stated they have written off Yefren as already being lost. The town of al-Galaa was also reported to be on the verge of being overrun with no more water supplies after they were poisoned. EkoGraf (talk) 07:03, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I saw that on your map of the Nafusa mountains the town of Tamzin is in rebel-held territory. However, if you read this article here [6] you will see that the rebels don't actualy control Tamzin. They tried recently to take control of it but had to retreat because most of the townspeople there were pro-Gaddafi. So it should be outside rebel-held territory. Tamzin is a thorn in the rebel's underbelly, so to speak because of its' strategic position. EkoGraf (talk) 16:16, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Yefren and Ryayna

A Zintan rebel spokesman confirmed today that Yefren was under loyalist control but the rebels were still in the surrounding area. Here is the source [7] and I will quote it for you On Saturday, Juma Ibrahim, a rebel spokesman in Zintan, said Yafran remained under Gaddafi loyalist control. So I recommend that Yefren be collored green but with a blue ring because the rebels are in the surrounding mountain tops and caves and are still conducting raids against loyalists in the town from time to time.EkoGraf (talk) 15:40, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Additionaly, it's been confirmed that loyalists have already advanced through Ryayna (taking control of it) and broken through two rebel defence lines outside Zintan in the past week. Source here [8]. Ryayna should be in loyalist territory on the map now, as well as Yafran.EkoGraf (talk) 20:52, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Reply to your message at my talkpage Rafy. The rebels have already said three times the town has fallen and is in loyalist hands, I don't get what the problem is? A rebel spokesman from Zintan yesterday clearly said the town is under Gaddafi control. I belive the town is blockaded, not under siege, in an attempt to punish the citizens for rising up by starving them out. Also, about Ryayna, it has also been confirmed yesterday that last week the loyalists managed to break through Ryayna. EkoGraf

Again major news sources still report that the town is under siege so I see no reason in putting it under Gaddafi's control.[9][10][11][12]. There are however reports of Loyalists occupying the city so blue is fine for now.--Rafy (talk) 15:16, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

About some towns

Al Hawamed, Badr, Badr Libya, Shakshuk, Al Josh and Quars al Hajj are in pro Gaddafi control. They`re at the north of the rebel-held Nafusa Mountains. See this. --Ave César Filito (talk) 12:40, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, all the towns along that road are in the plains, where loyalists control. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:19, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

So, can anyone change this towns to green? --Ave César Filito (talk) 00:00, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Agree. Didn't see it as a big deal. For me it looked like most of the towns you mentioned are under loyalist control, anyway. Just to the left and right the red gradient patch is a little thick (Al Hawamed and Al Josh). I always read the map like "in the area the red fades out are clashes and loyalists have the upper hand". As news are frequently reporting of loyalist advances or sieges, especially in the eastern parts of the mountains. Elllit (talk) 07:10, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

 Done... though not rendered correctly in thumbnails.--Rafy (talk) 15:18, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Al Rayayna

Al Rayayna is in Loyalist control, not in the middle of the frontline, as in the map appares. See this. --Ave César Filito (talk) 13:40, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

I did fix it but the thumbnails don't render it correctly.--Rafy (talk) 15:17, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

It seems the thumbnail is always one change behind. Thanks for updating, btw. Elllit (talk) 15:47, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Likewise, Wazzin is under rebel control up to the border. The map depicts the frontline falling short of the border. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:58, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

 Done--Rafy (talk) 17:49, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Rayayna is now under attack by rebels from Yefren, who now control half of the town. [13] Fovezer (talk) 19:08, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, there should be a red arrow going from Yafran to Rayayna. Also probably one from Zintan to Rayayna as well. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:44, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Yafran

It was captured by Loyalists, confirmed by Rebels: see here. --Ave César Filito (talk) 19:38, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Also mentioned in passing here. 87.50.57.56 05:28, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

 Done--Rafy (talk) 10:56, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

The source provided by Ave César Filito also describes rebels attacking loyalists at Kikla. Evidently there must be some sort of significant rebel presence around there. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 13:43, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

 Done--Rafy (talk) 17:49, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Here is also a map giving the precise situation in Yafran/Galaa: [14]. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:10, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Yefren not taken [15]. --EllsworthSK (talk) 13:25, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

But actually, it was. Notice it says "his forces have seized two western mountain towns from Moammar Gadhafi's forces". At any rate, it seems that it has been retaken by the rebels. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:35, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I didn´t notice that, thanks. Although I personally remain dubious about that, loyalist forces were in Yafran for more than a month, it seems to impossible for them to capture whole city just to be pushed out few days later. However that is my personall opinion, sources say something else. One way or another siege of Yefren and Qualaa continues as all routes to Yafran, but though mountain terrain, are controlled by loyalist forces. Also some opposition sources said that right before news about capture of whole Yefren by rebels, loyalist positions around the city were bombed by NATO aircrafts so I guess that´s the reason for loyalist retreat from the city. --EllsworthSK (talk) 17:16, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Yefren seems to have been retaken by rebels [16]

Thats what Rebels claims. But I haven´t found any independent confirmation. --Ave César Filito (talk) 19:40, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

It's as good as confirmed if it is in mainstream RS media. The rebels claimed to have lost Yafran and it was reported, but you don't take issue with that. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:47, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

The thing, I think, is that if Loyalists claims they´ve captured a town, it´s better to waits until Rebels or an independienr source confirm this. If Rebels claim that, we also must wait until an independient source of Loyalists claims it. However, I think I have it: Here a resident confirmes it. --186.58.227.41 17:11, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

I wrote that, but I forgot to sign in. --Ave César Filito (talk) 17:12, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

And another confirmation by Reuters Elllit (talk) 13:12, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

It seems the Rebels also captured the road between Yafran and Zintan... --Ave César Filito (talk) 19:31, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

As well as Bir Ayyid, north of Yefren (at the junction). But couldn't find any trustworthy confirmation, yet. Elllit (talk) 20:08, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Ah, got something: [17] Elllit (talk) 20:15, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Shakshuk and Qasr al Hajj

Are reportedly under rebel control [18]

Confirmed by AJE Live Blog: [19]. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:08, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Also, Shakshuk and al-Jawsh should be switched on the map, as Shakshuk is just north of Jadu and ar-Rujban, according to Google Maps. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:03, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

 Done--Rafy (talk) 17:48, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Bir Ayyad (town on northen road between Zintan and Yefren)to rebels, confirmed by Reuters cameraman.[20] --EllsworthSK (talk) 00:58, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Al Jazeera confirms this, says rebels are a further 50km up the road from Shakshuk, which is almost exactly how far Bir Ayyad is from Shakshuk. See [21] Fovezer (talk) 02:06, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Kikla

Kikla was reportedly recaptured by rebels. Also, according to rebels, Al-Rayayna is under siege (implying that the town itself is under rebel control.) [22]

In addition, as pointed out above, Bir Ayyad (essentially, the turn in the road to the north of Yefren) is under rebel control. 68.42.243.198 23:33, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree that Yefren needs to be connected via Bir Ayyad and the northern road to Zintan. However, I think you misread that article about al-Rayayna. It said anti-Gaddafi forces were surrounding the city, which would imply that the city is controlled by Gaddafi's forces, not the rebels. Fovezer (talk) 05:19, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree with adding Bir Ayyad to map, it´s important junction on currently only road from Zintan to Yefren which rebels have under their control and also connects Nafusa mountains with highway to Surman and Zawiya on which rebel scout units operate [23] --EllsworthSK (talk) 12:51, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm unable to locate it on the map, does anyone have its coordinations?--Rafy (talk) 13:32, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Of course, google maps coordinates are: 32.115897,12.40458 --EllsworthSK (talk) 13:42, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Ok  Done--Rafy (talk) 19:45, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Apologies for being nitpicky, but the string of rebel territory around Bir Ayyad should be connected to the 'main' rebel territory to the west, from which the advance occurred. The significance of the capture of Bir Ayyad was securing a key supply route between Yefren and Zintan/Nalut/etc.

Also, while I'm here, could you add small dots of red to Zliten (widely reported uprising there)? Possibly also Gharyan ([24], and Bani Walid [25] 68.42.243.198 20:07, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

A better solution for such towns where we don't know where local rebels are would be making a symbol for clashes and/or protests. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:02, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Kikla recaptured by rebels

Found a source stating that rebels have claimed to have recaptured Kikla around the same time as Yafran: [26]. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:41, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Here is a report from the AJE Live Blog that the rebel recapture of Kikla has been independently confirmed. Add recapture date and extend the red. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:33, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I can add Reuters to the sources. Page 1 and 2 report from Kikla and 5 from Ryayana. Elllit (talk) 21:54, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Zliten

The red arrow is not correct. There is an uprising in Zliten but the Rebels of Misrata are still fighting near Dafniya and they didn´t avance to Zliten. See the Wikipedia`s articles. --Ave César Filito (talk) 15:16, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

The arrow is correct. "In the major fighting near Misrata on Monday, an Associated Press photographer at the rebel front lines said they had pushed along the Mediterranean Sea to within 6 miles (10 kilometers) of Zlitan, the next city to the west of Misrata. A rebel commander said his forces, using arms seized from government weapons depots and fresh armaments being shipped in from Benghazi, planned to have moved into Zlitan, by Tuesday." [27] Fovezer (talk) 17:48, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Here rebels say they have no planned offensive on Zliten, though they are slowly advancing. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:36, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Loyalists won in Zawiya

See the Wikipedia article and the references that are there. --Ave César Filito (talk) 19:58, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Al-Rayyana

Al-Rayyana has fallen [28] so we can connect whole Yafran area with rest of rebel controlled Nafusa mountains. --EllsworthSK (talk) 20:43, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Confirmed by James Bay, Al Jazeera correspondant, who is in the city. [29] [30] Fovezer (talk) 15:47, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Kikla

Is in opposition hands: [31] 93.32.247.187 12:03, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Situation south/south-east of Yafran?

Maybe the red colouring is a bit "optimistic" in the case of the areas to the south and south-east of Yafran? Reports (by Reuters or [32]) state that the rebels are advancing on the small towns/villages to the east of the freshly captured road junction to the south of Yafren, but I see no ref of total control of the area of Al-Galaa (Al-Qalaa). Here we have a wider, ondulating plain with small villages and olive tree groves in between, so I guess the rebel advance may be a bit slower. The red on the map now nearly spills onto Al-Gharya, which so far seem to be firmly in loyalist hands.--Paracel63 (talk) 12:54, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Galaa was never captured by loyalists. With the fall of Rayayna, rebels from the the main stretch of mountains from Wazzin to Zintan have now linked up with rebels from the Yafran-Galaa pocket. They have advanced on and retaken Kikla. The exact boundaries of control are ill-defined, hence the fade-out of the red into green. Perhaps the red is a bit too close to Gharyan, but the city is likely high up on the list of places for the Nafusa rebels to recapture, seeing as how they have recently been recovering most of their losses that had been inflicted in March and April. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 13:10, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

As mentioned, Gaala was never controlled by loyalists. And reports said that rebels attacked Rayayna from both Yafran and Zintan, cities which are on the map are located on the road they had to use to reach it. Also from what I´ve read rebels are planning two offensives in next days - first wone which begun - on Takut, Tiji, Badr and basicly everything that is on northen road between Wazzin and Shakshuk (oppositions reports already said that Tiji, Al-Hawamed and Takut has fallen), getting control of both mountainous pass and cities in both valleys from Tunisian border up to Yafran and next one to Gharyan. --EllsworthSK (talk) 22:43, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks for the clarifications. I made a mixup here, I think. What I meant was the ondulating plains area to the _south_ of Al Qalaa. This lies around the main road between Zintan and Gharya (ie south and east of Al Bayatinah). I'm not sure where Takut is on the map. Google has a Teghet to the _east_ of Nalut, up in the mountains. Is it around Al Hawamid?--Paracel63 (talk) 22:02, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry. Takut found.--Paracel63 (talk) 22:11, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Tamzin

Tamzin is shown as rebel-held in the current map. The last news I heard was that residents expelled rebels who had tried to enter the city to negotiate joining the opposition. They had wanted to protect their shopping access in the plains and avoid loyalist attacks. Has it been definitively taken by the rebels now? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 13:19, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

That news is a few weeks old now, and I haven't seen anything new. However, I don't think it would be right to call it "Gaddafi-controlled" because Gaddafi's forces have no presence in the town or on the Nafusa Mountains any more. So while the residents there may be wary of the rebels, the rebels most certainly control that whole area. Fovezer (talk) 14:25, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

I concur with Fovezer, The rebels simply didn't enter the village but that doesn't mean it's controlled by Loyalists either.--Rafy (talk) 15:56, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Probably not every town in loyalist territory has troops stationed there. The article that you provided in the revision that indicated the town as loyalist says that the town has Gaddafi-green flags flying about, which indicates that the residents had proclaimed their loyalty to the regime. Then again, it also said that rebels planned to return within a few days, so the situation has probably changed. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:56, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Ain Ghezaia?

Some reports [33] talk of Qaddafi forces present in the area around Ain Ghezaia. This is on the road between Nalut and Wazzin. Concurrently there seems to be fighting close to Nalut (nearer Nalut than the plains towns?). Does anyone know more? Has Ain Ghezaia been in rebel hands all the time?--Paracel63 (talk) 22:20, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Seems there has been a Qaddafi regiment stationed there (temporarily? permanent base?). Opposition forces trying to oust them from the area, securing control of the road to Tunisian border (has travel to Wazzin been done earlier via deroute?).--Paracel63 (talk) 22:48, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Haven't heard much at all about this town. Libyafeb17 is not reliable enough for any map change, either. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:13, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

About Libyafeb17 – no, not normally. But in this case it was a tweet from James Bays (of Al Jazeera English).--Paracel63 (talk) 13:45, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

AFAIK, Twitter isn't considered RS either, even if it is from a journalist. If it is in a legitimate news report, then we can talk. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:47, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Those units are there for months, they are those who are attacking Wazzin border crossing and Ghaziya is behind the pass that Al Jazeera and other medias reported as frontline of fighting where rebels are stationed. Also there is southern road between Nalut and Wazzin, that one is in rebel hands and that one is beeing used for transport of materials and personell. Just look here [34] --EllsworthSK (talk) 20:26, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the info! Wikimapia seems to have a lot more place-names than, say, Google. It's too bad many (most?) news reports seem to be simplified, avoiding details such as notes about Ghezaiah. Which often makes me want to look beyond "legitimate news reports", as those to a high degree seem both dated and non-specified.--Paracel63 (talk) 14:05, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

 Done, added it. It's tucked in somewhere between March and April.--Rafy (talk) 15:48, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Western rebels have reached further

It appears the western rebels have reached all the way up until the tiny outpost of Bi'r al Ghanam [35], which is right where the road curves north of Yifran [36]. Magog the Ogre (talk) 13:11, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

 Done--Rafy (talk) 13:43, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

If I could throw in some ridiculously unnecessary commentary, I'd like to add that watching this war progress is like watching paint dry, only worse. Or like the front lines of World War I. Some year somebody might gain something significant. Magog the Ogre (talk) 13:15, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

It was kind of exciting earlier on... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 13:20, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Being familiar with Libya I can easily predict that it will a long lazy summer.--Rafy (talk) 13:43, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

No offense but map is exaggarating. Bir al-Ghanam is contested and from image it looks like rebel already reached outskirts of Al Aziziya. --EllsworthSK (talk) 17:57, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Corrected--Rafy (talk) 13:48, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Maybe there should be some arrow showing that rebels are advancing along the road leading to the capital??? —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 31.63.240.33 (talk) 00:59, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there should be such an arrow. --93.139.220.211 21:25, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Dates

Can someone clear up the dates of capture/control? Some are written from top to bottom and some are written bottom to top. —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.204.155.213 (talk) 14:15, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Rebel Advances

Hey, just saw via http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14037358 that the Misrata front has been unified to the south and the west. Also, sources on twitter are reporting that Bir Al Ghanam is fully in rebel hands. For example: https://twitter.com/#!/libyanproud/status/88371582958968832. I know this is on the other map, but the rebels have advanced to within 20km of Brega as well. Thanks. --Wikiharr (talk) 22:40, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Curiously I just saw Serbian State Television report saying that Misrata front,despite optimistic rebel claims,is faring actually bad if we consider that city is under constant shelling and casualties are heavy.Rebel commanders in Dafniya, on the western outskirts of Misrata, told Reuters their forces had made the advance overnight along one stretch of the front line, but Reuters journalists were unable to confirm that,and if we consider Dafniya is uner heavy fire....something doesn't fit,I am sorry.This map is old,it don't represent the current situation. Nikolas93ts (talk) 11:46, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

While I agree that this map is old (the comment two above this is me, btw) I disagree with the above comment on Misrata. Here are some links to new updates that should be posted to this and all other maps: 1) Freedom Fighters have advance to within 5km of Zliten city center: https://twitter.com/#!/2011feb17/status/88642086487855105 and https://twitter.com/#!/ShahedMisurata/status/88617130047700992 (both reliable twitter sources) 2) FFs have taken Qawaleesh or Gualish: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14051363 3) FFs have taken Asabaa or it is at least contested: https://twitter.com/#!/Thanku4theAnger/status/88632508115206144 . Thanks. --Wikiharr (talk) 17:26, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

First of all twitter is not a reliable source, let alone claims from rebel sympathizers. Al Jubaish seems to lie in the presumably-rebel-held area, I will only update the map once they attack the highway from Shakshuk to Nalut or Capture Bir al Ghanam or make an effort on Gharyan. The situation is more or less a stalemate.--Rafy (talk) 18:01, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I understand your reluctance to respond to news breaking via twitter - however the ones I have linked have a very good track record, and the main news media is very slow to update on Libya. Here is some more news: Guma El Gumaty, spokesman for the NTC, has claimed there is fighting in Tarhuna. If so, the Misrata area of the map is very out of date. Source: https://twitter.com/#!/Guma_el_gamaty/status/88665415659700225 I disagree with your statement that this is a stalemate, consensus is that NATO has given the freedom fighters a green light to launch an offensive along multiple fronts over the last day or so, and progress was invariably made in all areas including Brega. Qawaleesh and Asabaa are on the road to Gharyan, so there's your effort in that direction. This map is inaccurate now, and the situation is far from a stalemate. --Wikiharr (talk) 18:29, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

By the way, here is another non twitter source for FFs in Qawaleesh: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/07/06/libya-mountains-capture-idUKLDE7650YA20110706— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiharr (talk • contribs) 18:40, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

And just as a heads up, reports are now coming in that Pro-G forces are fleeing both Asabaa and Gharyan. Should be cleared up by tonight, so that would definitely warrant an update.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiharr (talk • contribs) 18:44, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Al-Qawalish is now in rebel hands. http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/07/06/libya.war/index.html?hpt=hp_t2 Loro-rojo (talk) 18:53, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Al Qawalish lies 10km SE of Kikla and more than 100km south of Tripoli (CNN claims 50km but I tend to believe google maps on this one.), I could extend the rebel held area a bit on that direction I guess.--Rafy (talk) 19:32, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I always refer to this map to find those tiny little towns in nafusa: http://twitpic.com/5bz8ly/full. --Wikiharr (talk) 19:41, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

This picture shows rebels are 37km away from Gharyan. http://twitpic.com/5mkvdn --Wikiharr (talk) 16:44, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

According to Al-Jazeera Arabic, Bir Al-Ghanem is now fully taken by rebels. --212.40.103.192 09:41, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

No it's Reuters correspondent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK9Q70CG3bU —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 31.63.231.196 (talk) 13:43, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Does it really matter? Fact is, with advances in Bir Al-Ghanam, Al Qawaleesh, Zliten, and south of Brega these maps have become extremely out of date. If I had the ability to modify .svg files I would do so - unfortunately all I can do for now is try to post the most accurate information. --Wikiharr (talk) 17:27, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Someone needs to update this map ASAP. 98.235.216.87 02:14, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Certenly there should be added an arrow between Dafniyah and Zliten. — Preceding unsigned comment was added by 79.162.129.236 (talk) 13:18, 10 July 2011 (UTC)