Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Solkan bridge

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Files in Category:Solkan bridge

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The bridge was constructed in 1906 upon the plans by Rudolf Jaussner. It is the most important feature of the photo. There's no information about when R. Jaussner died, so it cannnot be confirmed that he died before 1945, as demanded by COM:FOP#Slovenia for the image to be free per the Commons criteria.

Eleassar (t/p) 18:06, 3 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep all. It is very likely that he died before 1945, because he would have to have been a well-established (=not very young) architect before 1906 to get such an important project. Preemptive deletion is not Commons policy and we can always delete later if it turns out that the gentleman actually outlived WWII. — Yerpo Eh? 07:12, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Per COM:EVIDENCE, the burden of proof is on the uploader. It's not so rare that authors who created in 1906 or before were still alive after World War II (think only of Fabiani (97 y), Zaninović (70 y), Zajec (83 y) etc., the creators of the most notable works from Slovenia from the period before 1906). In addition, the man who was actually charged with building the bridge, Leopold Örley, is described as young in this reference (the 2nd paragraph), so it's not true that these guys could not have been young. I'd say that all works created in 1895 or later (roughly 120 years) should be regarded as copyrighted until proven otherwise. --Eleassar (t/p) 09:05, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 Info Haven't found a death date, but Jaussner was active in 1887. I suppose that still doesn't rule out a death date after 1945. —LX (talk, contribs) 10:26, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's a grey area, and I see no practical benefit whatsoever in applying this cautionary principle so radically. In my opinion, all works from before World War I. can reasonably be assumed ok unless evidence to the contrary emerges. Especially for cases like this when it's obvious that it isn't an author's early work. The three Eleassar mentioned above lived exceptionally long for those times. — Yerpo Eh? 10:38, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide a source for the last two claims? After all, we can't even be sure that it is the same Rudolf Jaussner. For example, I recently searched for Franc Ravnikar. There were two, living in the same period, one was a sculptor, another was a carpenter. There are other such cases. Otherwise, Commons policy is clear and in regard to 'no practical benefit', see COM:NOT and COM:PRP. --Eleassar (t/p) 11:52, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
COM:PRP says that a file should be deleted "if there is significant doubt about the freedom of a particular file" (with "significant" accented). I still believe there isn't - even if Jaussner was as young as 25 when he made the plans in 1903, he would be well over the average life expectancy by the end of WWII (= around 45 years for 1901 births in a comparable country [1]). — Yerpo Eh? 12:17, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
First, this guy was not an average farmer John Doe, but a well educated and probably well-off architect. If it is so easy to cite people who lived longer, like the examples above indicate, this raises significant doubt that their life span was exceptionally long for such circles. This means that there is significant doubt whether Jaussner died before 1945, and therefore a significant doubt about the copyright-free status of the listed files. --Eleassar (t/p) 12:40, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You ignore two world wars that weren't so picky as far as the social status was concerned, and there's a long way from average to 1945 within the time frame we have here. There is a doubt, yes, but it's far from significant. According to a likely scenario, he was middle-aged (i.e. over 40) at the time of creation, meaning that out of your examples, only Fabiani would outlive him, and he's exceptional even by today's standards. But it looks like we'll just have to agree that we disagree, and I hope the closing admin will choose the reasonable course of action. — Yerpo Eh? 13:18, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The scenario sounds likely. I'll try to find some other information about R. Jaussner to provide further credence to it. Perhaps this book offers the birth and death years. --Eleassar (t/p) 14:44, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I got curious too, so I intend to write to some local museum with the query. — Yerpo Eh? 17:34, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Until then, the fact is that many notable architects lived for a long time (besides the listed ones also e.g. Vurnik - 87 years and Plečnik - 85 years). I can't remember anyone who died in the world wars. The low life expectancy at birth was primarily due to high childhood mortality. That's what I base my doubt upon; all the rest is just a guess. --Eleassar (t/p) 13:52, 5 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've verified the mentioned book (Humar, G. Kamniti velikan na Soči). It is a very fine book with a lot of details. Unfortunately it doesn't provide the birth and death years of Jaussner. It does provide the birth and death years of Leopold Örley (1872-1936). I'm afraid that these images will have to be deleted due to the lack of proof about the copyright-free status. --Eleassar (t/p) 14:54, 8 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't able to get anything specific either, but I still believe that there is no significant doubt here, although we can only infer - for example, Örley is described as "young" at the time of construction (unlike Jaussner), meaning that Jaussner must have been markedly older. So even if he reached Plečnik's or Vurnik's age, it's likely that he died before 1945. — Yerpo Eh? 08:46, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, Jaussner must have been older (I'm not sure though how much). I'd send a letter to Mr. Humar if I would know his e-mail, but otherwise I feel I have done enough to clarify the status of these images and will leave the final decision to the concluding administrator. --Eleassar (t/p) 09:11, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've sent a letter to Mr. Humar and hope he will reply soon. --Eleassar (t/p) 09:20, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In case he doesn't reply or know, one final clue can be found here. On p. 62, there is an entry about a Rudolf Jaussner who was a "Technikstudent" in 1887 and later became an engineer, so almost certainly the same person. If he was in his twenties at the time (on the picture it surely looks so), it means that he was born somewhere around 1865. It isn't impossible that he survived WWII, but he'd have to be 80 or over by then. Slightly less than my first estimate, but male life expectancy in Austria today is 77, which, in my opinion, is a suitably generous and a more reliable predictor than random architects that may or may not have lived exceptionally long for people of their stature. — Yerpo Eh? 07:14, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There are lies, damned lies, and then there are statistics. :-) Averages really say nothing about distribution. A life expectancy of 77 could mean a quarter the population dies at 20 and the rest at 96. Wars tend to have a greater impact on distribution (particularly at the lower end) than on averages or maxima. Also keep in mind that "life expectancy" without further specification typically refers to the population's average life expectancy at birth. Life expectancy for someone having reached adult age can be significantly longer than at birth, and in the west, adult life expectancy has changed less during recent history compared to life expectancy at birth. —LX (talk, contribs) 10:31, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's hard to say anything conclusive. Mr. Humar has replied but has sent me the dates of Örley, I'll hope he'll be generous enough to reply again and send them for Jaussner. --Eleassar (t/p) 08:26, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: No reasonable doubt that these are not in the public domain, as per the discussion above. Yann (talk) 13:04, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Files in Category:Solkan bridge

A reasonable doubt was raised for these images, because it was shown that the author could have died after 1945.

Eleassar (t/p) 15:37, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The 'no significant doubt' claim was based on a false and rejected premise that an average lifetime can be regarded as the relevant statistical information. It was demonstrated that the average is skewed and as such unreliable. It was shown that the author was probably born around 1865, which would mean that he was 80 or a bit over in 1945. I'd like to get some other opinions whether there is really "no significant doubt" that he died before this year, particularly because it was shown that many or most of notable architects active in Slovenia in that period lived for over 80 years. Per this article, one should regard the year 1900 as the year where one is safe regarding the copyright and a similar opinion has been expressed by other users, e.g. here. The bridge was built in 1905. --Eleassar (t/p) 15:39, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is getting tedious. The average life expectancy is not a perfect predictor, but unless we find a more reliable one, I suggest we leave this be. Besides, the plans for the bridge were drawn in 1903 and the article you quoted was published in 2010. Again, it's a grey area. I, for one, find the German "pragmatic rule" a lot more reasonable, and the Village pump discussion you mentioned is a perfect example of "no consensus". — Yerpo Eh? 20:42, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. I just want some more input in regard to whether there is really "no significant doubt" that an engineer born in ca. 1865 died before 1945, because I think there is such a doubt and that the closure rationale was just made up. After all, if one takes into consideration that the "adult life expectancy has changed less during recent history compared to life expectancy at birth", the difference from 77 years or 75 years to 80 years, or better, 85, is not very extreme, particularly when there are many examples of notable people living over 80. In my opinion, this is not the first such case and there must be some rough case-based consensus about the birth year that is too early for an image to be copyrighted. I hope an experienced administrator or user will be able to provide it. In the discussion, people agreed that 100 years is too short and that over 120 years must have passed since the monument was created. As for the article, it is an article about people who constantly look for sources just for the same reason as we do, to verify the copyright status, because they develop the dLib library. With the exception that they do this professionally, so they probably know what they're talking about. --Eleassar (t/p) 21:09, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should at first agree on a statistical definition of what is a "reasonable doubt" (let's say that this means the same as "a significant likelihood of an event occurring"). Then we can simply calculate, if we agree to assume that Jaussner was born e.g. in 1865, whether the risk that he was still alive in 1945 is significant, from these pyramids and these data. If it is, the burden of proof is on the uploader. This seems fair to me. --Eleassar (t/p) 22:24, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I've asked impartial users at the Reference desk of the English Wikipedia. According to them, the probability for a newborn in 1865 to survive until 1945 is 15%, and to survive until 1950 is 5%.[2] This makes it apparent that the possibility he was still living in 1945 or after is not negligible. A significant doubt therefore does exist. The burden of proof is now on the uploader. --Eleassar (t/p) 14:50, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
For males, you get 12 % surviving until 1945. This is slightly more accurate than average life expectancy, but there is no "standard definition of risk" here apart from the one we make. You have your opinion, I have mine, so I guess it falls to the closing admin again. Another useful clue could be mr. Humar's commercial work for which I doubt that he obtained permission for photographic reproductions from current owners of R. Jaussner's copyright (since he apparently doesn't know anything at all about Jaussner). It's is still not a proof, but if nothing else, it's a proof that nobody cares – so effectively, the work is free. — Yerpo Eh? 09:35, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You're correct that there is "no standard definition of risk" here, but it's also clear that the probability he was still living in 1945 is far from negligible (particularly as he was a well educated and probably well-off engineer and it's known that he was still living in 1909), so one has every reason to doubt the file is actually free. As to the argument that no-one cares, I'm sure you know it is not valid. Because of our scope, it is also not true. What we aim to do here is to maintain a collection of files that are free with no significant doubt about this. --Eleassar (t/p) 09:48, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
 I withdraw my nomination --Eleassar (t/p) 13:14, 20 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Withdrawn Yann (talk) 08:47, 22 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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