Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Robert W. Paul

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Files in Category:Robert W. Paul

EU copyright directive Article 2.2:

The term of protection of cinematographic or audiovisual works shall expire 70 years after the death of the last of the following persons to survive, whether or not these persons are designated as co-authors: the principal director, the author of the screenplay, the author of the dialogue and the composer of music specifically created for use in the cinematographic or audiovisual work.

The producer of these films, w:Robert W. Paul, died in 1943. Based on the above, it would seem that the copyright expires at the earliest 70 years after the producer's death.

Stefan4 (talk) 23:47, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I take File:Scrooge or Marley's Ghost (1901).ogv as a practical exemple : the film is available on the Internet Archive and is listed on The Public Domain Review as PD worldwide. I have removed the soundtrack from the upload. The applicable law, UK Copyright, Designs and Patents Act does not grant the same protection as the EEC directive and the 70 years pma applies to the "dramatist" and not the producer (cf. section 13 of the CDPA Act, hence Booth who died in 1938. In any case, these films are at least as PD-US, per the arguments developed here. Thanks, — Racconish^Tk 13:07, 15 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The "PD worldwide" claim is plain wrong. Check for example the warning in {{PD-old-70}}: "Note that a few countries have copyright terms longer than 70 years: Mexico has 100 years, Colombia has 80 years, and Guatemala and Samoa have 75 years. This image may not be in the public domain in these countries, which moreover do not implement the rule of the shorter term." Neither Booth nor Paul died more than 75 years ago, so the film is clearly copyrighted in Colombia, Guatemala and Samoa. Also, I'm not sure where you find the stuff about the dramatist. The law is very clear:

Copyright expires at the end of the period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the death occurs of the last to die of the following persons—
(a)the principal director,
(b)the author of the screenplay,
(c)the author of the dialogue, or
(d)the composer of music specially created for and used in the film;
subject as follows.

Also, it's not clear if it is enough to remove a soundtrack and thereby ignore the date of death of the author of the dialogue and the composer of music specifically created for and used in the film; the EU copyright duration directive seems to suggest that the entire film is copyrighted until all four of them have died. --Stefan4 (talk) 17:06, 15 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am afraid there is a misunderstanding about the soundtrack : obviously these are silent film with no soundtrack. Therefore any soundtrack postdates the original film. Please read carefully sections 9 and 10 of Article 13B of the UK CDPA Act : if any of the 4 persons cannot be ascertained, the copyright provision does not apply for such person. The notion I used of "dramatist" comes from this study of the European Audiovisual Observatory, p. 16, which also clarifies the differences between the revised CDPA and the European directive. Cheers, — Racconish^Tk 17:48, 15 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am reading the document differently. This is my interpretation:

The copyright to a cinematograhic work expires in the UK 70 years after the death of the longest living of the people listed in the Copyright Duration Directive.
Some cinematographic works may additionally be dramatic works. If a cinematographic work also is a dramatic work, then you need to wait until the dramatist has been dead for at least 70 years in addition to the term above. 70 years after the dramatist has died, you could maybe set up the film as a play at a theatre without needing any permission.
If there is no dramatist and the people mentioned in the Copyright Duration Directive don't exist, or if the film is below the threshold of originality, then the copyright expires 50 years after the first fixation of the film.

However, this seems to be a very messy area. There is not a big issue with these films as any interpretation seems to suggest that the copyright at least will be expired in three and a half month if not earlier, but it could be a big issue with other films. --Stefan4 (talk) 21:32, 15 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I take it we now agree reference should be made to UK's applicable law, hence to the CDPA Act which is not the same as the EEC Copyright Duration Directive (I gave the reference of the IRIS study to shed light on this point) and does not make reference to the producer of the film. The matter is not so difficult as you seem to see it. We have at least clarified that Paul's death, which was your initial concern, is not to be taken into account, per the terms of the CDPA Act which are not the exact same as the EEC Directive : Booth is the only known individual to be identified as the director of these films, except The Unfortunate Policeman for which the director is unknown. No screeplaywriter is credited for these films and no composer nor author of dialogue should be searched as there were no music nor intertitles in these early silent films. See [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8] and [9]. Booth died in 1938, more than 70 years ago. Therefore these are PD in the UK. You can easily check the matter with Europeana's PD calculator. And they are also PD in the USA as they were published before 1923. Again, I stress that the Open Knowledge Foundation has selected one of these films, Scrooge or Marley's Ghost as an exemple of a PD film from the 1900s. Cheers, — Racconish^Tk 06:35, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't the producer be "the author of the screenplay"? Or is the director both "the principal director" and "the author of the screenplay" in these cases?

The PDF document you linked suggests that the producer owns a related right for 50 years from creation, but that right has obviously expired a long time ago.

File:The Unfortunate Policeman (1905).ogv states "Silent film of 1905 directed by Walter R. Booth and produced by Robert W. Paul". If that is wrong, please correct it.

As I wrote above, the "PD Worldwide" claim at http://publicdomainreview.org/2012/12/10/scrooge-or-marleys-ghost-1901/ is wrong as the film is at least copyrighted in Colombia, Guatemala, Samoa and Spain. Therefore, I would pay no attention to the statement. --Stefan4 (talk) 14:38, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Stefan, there is no reason in the world to believe the producer was the screenplay writer. Charles Pathé or Louis Gaumont, for example, produced hundreds if not thousands of films but were never directly involved in the creative process. We cannot ascertain who is the author of the screenplay for these films, although it is highly probable it was Booth himself, therefore the related protection for the screenplay writer does not apply, which means, as far the screenplay is concerned, 70 years after publication. In that respect the applicable UK law and the EEC directive it interprets are perfectly congruent : there is no basis for assuming a creative responsability of the producer if he is not a "co-author". I have corrected the information for The Unfortunate Policeman. Now concerning Colombia, Guatemala and Samoa, I understand your point about the lack of application of the Bern convention, although bilateral treatises with the UK might exist. Doesn't {{PD-old-70-1923}}, currently applied to all these files, have the same caveat you mentioned about {{PD-old-70}} ? In practical terms, do you suggest a change to the current license ? Cheers, — Racconish^Tk 15:14, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: Unclear copyright status. Unless we have definitive, explicit written and/or textual, tangible evidence from a credible, verifiable source naming these files as freely licensed under a Commons compatible license, we simply cannot host them on Commons FASTILY 04:52, 24 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Undeleted in 2014. --McZusatz (talk) 15:26, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Robert W. Paul

Files in Category:Robert W. Paul

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