Commons:Deletion requests/File:Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs2.svg

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

File:Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs2.svg

[edit]

This file was initially tagged by Jeff G. as Copyvio (copyvio) and the most recent rationale was: Copyrighted by Abraham Maslow in his 1943 book, and he hasn't been dead long enough for his copyright to have expired.
Copyright protects expressions, not ideas. – Kwj2772 (talk) 13:30, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kwj2772: Did he express his ideas in a pyramid form?   — Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me 15:16, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely. And I believe there is an awful lot of text here that is close to verbatim from Maslowe. - Jmabel ! talk 15:35, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Speedy delete as nominated. See also Commons:Deletion requests/File:Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.jpg.   — Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me 16:36, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep The idea of a pyramid is not copyrightable, nor are simple keywords (COM:TOO). The color scheme and layout of the brackets appear to be an original design choice by Androidmarsexpress. The only thing that might be borderline is the non-bolded explanatory text inside the pyramid. But even there I think it's below COM:TOO, as there aren't too many ways to express a list of terms. (A list of ingredients in a recipe is not copyrightable, for instance, even if the chef spent a lot of creative effort coming up with the recipe. And you don't have to find ways to reword it like "aubergine" for "eggplant", you can just copy the list verbatim.) -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 20:35, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep You can't copyright ideas. I don't know how closely the wording follows the original, but it's short enough to be minimal. Opencooper (talk) 20:37, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep Way below any COM:TOO. Just at triangle & text. Rodhullandemu (talk) 22:15, 11 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Question How does Maslow's hierarchy look? Did it use the same colours? Did it add a summary text in the same manner on the right of the piramid with the angle bracket following the side? If this piramid is exactly the same, then we can have a case to delete, but if we are talking about hierarchy being represented in a triangle, then it is done over and over again and as such is a scène à faire. ℺ Gone Postal (〠 ✉ • ✍ ⏿) 04:47, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Gone Postal: According to User talk:Jmabel#"How is that not a violation of Maslow's heirs' copyright?", the current file was created based on File:Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.jpg; Androidmarsexpress changed the colors, fonts, and positioning of the brackets. It's unclear if Maslow even used a pyramid in the original paper; if this is actually the original version of the pyramid, then the wording is totally different. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 05:14, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, in that case I believe that it is very safe to  Keep this particular file, due to the fact that ideas are not copyrightable, and the representation of these ideas is a scene a faire. ℺ Gone Postal (〠 ✉ • ✍ ⏿) 05:30, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    See my comment below. Maslow didn't design this image. It appears nowhere in anything he's ever written. And the person who is credited with creating it, did so based on Maslow's ideas, and using an image widely-used image (pyramid) in other contexts. This discussion is pretty much over. There's no legitimate reason to delete. KermitO (talk) 08:18, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep — because the initial pretext for deletion by Jeff G. is false. The image of the pyramid does not appear anywhere in Maslow's book, A Theory of Human Motivation (1943), and he did not create the image at all. This article discusses the murky origins of the pyramid, and if you need more scholarly resources that talk about it, I can provide those, too. Given that the pyramid was itself a remixing (and perversion) of Maslow's ideas, and every version of it we see, including this one, are remixes of whichever we might call the "original", this whole exercise of representing the HoN with a pyramid belongs to the commons at this point. No one can truly claim copyright over it. KermitO (talk) 07:57, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @KermitO: Ok, so maybe per that article the pyramid originated with Charles McDermid, despite my psychology text, but that still would mean that it is copyrighted. Also, even if we accept your argument, File:Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs2.svg still violates Chiquo's copyright on File:Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.jpg by not providing attribution for the derivative work, as required under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International license.   — Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me 08:08, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jeff G.: Nope, because as I said, the pyramid as it appears on the internet (and there are so many variations) are different enough from McDermid's original that they constitute fair use with modification. And even his "original" was based on other uses of the pyramid in general. Nothing about it belongs to McDermid alone: he's drawing on Maslow's ideas, and using a type of diagram common for representing hierarchy in many, many contexts. KermitO (talk) 08:14, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jeff G.: You are simply incorrect here. You cannot have a derivative of an idea, and the representation of an idea needs to be creative in order to achieve copyright. If you give me a list of ingredients for soup, that list is not copyrighted, for example. Only when creativity enters the discussion do we have a copyrighted work. There is no creativity in showing hierarchy as a triangle, that has been done since the dawn of time. ℺ Gone Postal (〠 ✉ • ✍ ⏿) 08:45, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Gone Postal: Evidently, both Chiquo and Androidmarsexpress felt they had done enough work to upload here with licenses, claiming to be "the copyright holder".   — Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me 08:58, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    True, because there is some copyright there. Triangle is not copyrightable, but this particular triangle with this particular text exactly as it is laid out, with the specific brackets... that has some copyright. Come on, you are being silly now, take a short break and look at Commons:Threshold of originality. ℺ Gone Postal (〠 ✉ • ✍ ⏿) 09:08, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep for the same reasoning as King of Hearts. The unbolded descriptions, especially for Self Actualization, may be copyrightable, but I believe they are below the threshold of originality in the US. The bolded labels are clearly uncopyrightable, as well as the overall pyramid design. Note: I was informed of this discussion by the uploader: Special:Diff/437092818/441165308 --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 16:06, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep The explanatory text is primarily synonyms and functional explanation rather than creative work and is unlikely to pass TOO as creative. The rest of the pyramid is as far as I can tell the uploader's own work, and isn't even as Maslow originally presented the concepts (and even if it was, could reasonably be considered uncopyrightable as a simple geometric shape). As stated in the nomination, copyright protects expressions, not ideas. Seraphimblade (talk) 08:01, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep Regardless of the origin, this is fair use — Preceding unsigned comment was added by 79.68.59.50 (talk) 08:50, 19 October 2020‎ (UTC)[reply]
We don't allow Fair Use here.   — Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me 09:00, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep I don't see anything in this sharing copyrightable material with Maslow's original, the artistic expression (choice of font, colors) diverges significantly, and the copyright of the original paper does not extend to the concept it explains. ChlorideCull (talk) 19:40, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Delete Hard to believe that the text at the top of the pyramid is not copyrightable. Christian Ferrer (talk) 07:53, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not only is it not copyrightable, but it is probably a definition of the text that is not copyrightable. Short phrases are not copyrightable. For example, if you take only "Short phrases are not copyrightable" out of my post and use it somewhere, there is 0 chance that any court will consider that to be an infringement of my copyright. ℺ Gone Postal (〠 ✉ • ✍ ⏿) 13:48, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: consensus is that the pyramid layout and the short text bits are not copyrightable. --P 1 9 9  ✉ 14:54, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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