Commons:Deletion requests/File:Carnoët - Vallée des Saints - Saint Kerien - Sant Kerian.jpg
Jump to navigation
Jump to search
This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.
No freedom of panorama in France A1Cafel (talk) 07:03, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- If I understand well, according to you I should not have displayed a picture of St Kerien statue in Vallee des Saints, as I am not the sculptor of this statue ?
- If you are right, Wikimedia can suppress all my pictures : I am not a sculpor, but just the person who took the pictures, as other persons did for the first statues installed on this site (see for instance : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vall%C3%A9e_des_Saints#/media/Fichier:Saint_Tugdual_-_Vall%C3%A9e_des_Saints.jpg)
- I hope this will be solved quickly, one way or the other... I never intended to do wrong. Scrapdemonik (talk) 08:57, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- If you take photos of old enough statues, they are no longer under copyright. I believe the sculptor must have died at least 70 years ago for a sculpture to be out of copyright in France. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:16, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for your answer, I do understand your position.. If you are right, it seems to me that all the pictures taken in "Vallee des Saints" should be suppressed ??? (as well as many pictures of monuments ????) Scrapdemonik (talk) 09:20, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- That, unfortunately, is French law, not my preference. France does not have a form of COM:Freedom of panorama that permits Commons to host such photos. That's regrettable, but why is it so hard to understand? -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:58, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- I respect the copyright. I am not sure of how it applies to photographies taken in open places.
- If Wiki decides to suppress all the pictures of statues or monuments created by artists who are not died for more than 70 years, mine should be suppressed too, and I won't see any inconvenience.
- Does it apply to statues displayed in France, and created by french and foreigner sculptors ? Or does it apply to statues created by french sculptors and displayed anywhere in the world ? Scrapdemonik (talk) 16:23, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don't want to be mean with other photographers ... I suggest you to have a look at these 124 categories of pictures taken in Carnoet village
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Vall%C3%A9e_des_Saints?uselang=fr
- Do some of these may remain published ? Or should they all be suppressed ???
- Do we need an authorisation from "the Vallee des Saints" administration to publish these pictures ? ...
- I recently visited a museum, which clearly indicates by a symbol near the paintings if a photography
- can be taken or not
- in case a picture can be taken : wether it can be used only for personal use (family photo album), or published on a media..
- Pictures are authorised in "Vallée des Saints", and I read no information concerning an interdiction to published these pictures...
- Once again, if you are right, I have no opposition to see my pictures suppressed, with the others Scrapdemonik (talk) 16:42, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- I just sent a message to "contact@lavalleedessaints.bzh" including a link for this discussion and the pictures concerned ..
- Their opinion should be the most important, don't you think so ??? Scrapdemonik (talk) 19:11, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- No. The copyright belongs to the sculptor. Please read COM:FOP France, and then if you still have questions, let us know. Note that Commons unfortunately requires that images hosted on its servers be usable commercially. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:26, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- ............
- And what about all the other pictures shown on Wikimedia about Vallée des Saints and other places like this ???
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Vall%C3%A9e_des_Saints?uselang=fr
- and what about Wikipedia
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vall%C3%A9e_des_Saints
- and what about all the pictures concerning "sculpture moderne" on Wikimédia
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=sculpture+moderne&title=Special:MediaSearch&go=Lire&type=image
- Scrapdemonik (talk) 09:00, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
- Did you read the link I gave you? As for Wikipedias, they have different policies on fair use. There is no fair use on Commons. I am not going to look through other photos right now, but if you've found some that are in violation of copyright laws, you can request deletion. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:09, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
- I did read the link, in short it says that according to french law, pictures of buildings and sculptures located in public space can be shown by private persons, but are not authorized for commercial utilisation ...
- The problem is not "my" picture, but the fact that - according to Creative Commons License 3 - this picture can be re-used for commercial use - and this would be unlawful. This would not be the case if the picture was shown with a "Creative Commons NonCommercial license" - I believe I can not change anything for this
- I will not request any deletion of other pictures taken in the same circumstances ... but if only upsmines are deleted I will surely be upset ! Scrapdemonik (talk) 12:07, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
- Prepare to be upset, then. Non-commercial licenses are not allowed on Commons. Read COM:Licensing. I feel like you are trying to bargain with me. That won't work because I don't set policy on this site. If it were up to me, Commons would allow non-commercial licenses. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:13, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
- no worry, there are much more important reasons to be upset, so I will let Wikimedia takes its decision... If it were a more important matter to me, I may have taken other decisions ... but as it is today, I believe I will just let it go !
- Yesterday, I found a link on some of your requests of suppressions. Can't find it today. I wish you "bon courage" for sending all the necessary "request for suppression"
- I sure would not like to take your job, even if I understand it's a necesssary one....
- Could it be a good idea to change the "warning message", I mean change " I am the author of this photography ...." by " I took this picture of a statue made XX years ago" ???
- Scrapdemonik (talk) 19:42, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don't have a job here, even a voluntary one, and when I make deletion requests, they're usually really obvious, though I have made some mistakes. You are the author of your photos, but not of the artwork you photograph. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:41, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
- ..........
- Have a good day Ikan, for my part I'll stop this discussion and let Wikimedia take a decision...
- If it leads to delete my picture, I just hope that it will be the same for all pictures taken in Vallee des Saints (either Carnoet, either other places), as well as pictures of Pyramid du Louvre (illustrating what is forbidden according to french laws) ..
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Copyright_rules_by_territory/France#Freedom_of_panorama
- It is the law, I do not contest your point anymore.. I'm just very sad for what "France" will look like on Wikimedia after this operation : an old museum in nice countryland ? Scrapdemonik (talk) 07:57, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- for Pyramid du Louvre :
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=pyramide+du+louvre&title=Special:MediaSearch&go=Lire&type=image
- (some of them seem to respect the law as the pyramid is just a detail on the picture, most of them focus on the pyramid)...
- and these are just some instances of "risky pictures" Scrapdemonik (talk) 08:01, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- I understand that the author of the scultures is the sculptor himself, so the following information does not change the law .. but I just received a note from the General Manager of Vallee des Saints, saying :
- "Je vous remercie de m'avoir prévenu. Côté de l'Association La Vallée des Saints, nous n'y voyons pas d'inconvénient car nous considérons que cette page contribue à la promotion du site. Nous sommes donc favorables à la publication des images." (on our side, we consider that this page (my picture), contributes to promote our site ; therefore, we welcome the publication of pictures) Scrapdemonik (talk) 16:26, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- Non-de minimis photos of the Louvre Pyramid are routinely deleted on this site. Also, I'm glad that the general manager there has a positive attitude, but COM:Licensing requires permission from the copyright-holder for commercial use. You are correct that Commons policies cause very large-scale deletions on this site. Are you aware that it is possible to upload fair use photos (sometimes in smaller versions) locally to some Wikipedias that allow fair use? I would suggest for you to read the fair use policies of relevant Wikipedias and devote your energy to making local uploads where warranted, rather than on arguing policy in a deletion request thread or pointing out that x-number of images that should be deleted have not been deleted yet. You could argue policy at Commons talk:Licensing or any of several other policy talk pages, but sadly, you won't get anywhere that way, either. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:42, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- I must admit that you made me think over this, and I am sending messages to the sculptors, for all the pictures I registered about Vallee des Saints (and not only the two you quoted), to get their opinion
- If they prefer the pictures being removed, I will ask myself for their suppression (unless I can do it myself ?)
- so, thank you for your message.
- Pour les non-anglophones, cette discussion concerne la validité de la publication de photos d'oeuvres n'appartenant pas encore au domaine public.
- En résumé (si j'ai bien tout compris), la photo elle-même n'est pas incriminée, mais sa publication sur Wikimédia implique une licence autorisant son usage commercial. Cette photo pourrait donc être utilisée à des fins commerciales, sans l'accord du sculpteur.
- Parmi les liens communiqués ci-dessus, celui-ci me semble le plus simple à comprendre :
- https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Copyright_rules_by_territory/France#Freedom_of_panorama
- Après ces nombreux échanges, j'ai décidé de solliciter l'avis des sculpteurs des différentes photos de la Vallée des Saints que j'ai publiées ici.
- Je reste attristée par le fait qu'en raison de cette loi, aucune photo d'un monument ou d'une sculpture dont le créateur n'est pas décédé depuis 70 ans ne peut être publiée sur Wikimédia. Ce n'est pas le cas dans tous les pays, mais c'est la loi française. Son application sur ce site implique que, sur Wikimédia, la France apparaîtra comme un vieux musée entouré de beaux paysages... Scrapdemonik (talk) 11:18, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- Non-de minimis photos of the Louvre Pyramid are routinely deleted on this site. Also, I'm glad that the general manager there has a positive attitude, but COM:Licensing requires permission from the copyright-holder for commercial use. You are correct that Commons policies cause very large-scale deletions on this site. Are you aware that it is possible to upload fair use photos (sometimes in smaller versions) locally to some Wikipedias that allow fair use? I would suggest for you to read the fair use policies of relevant Wikipedias and devote your energy to making local uploads where warranted, rather than on arguing policy in a deletion request thread or pointing out that x-number of images that should be deleted have not been deleted yet. You could argue policy at Commons talk:Licensing or any of several other policy talk pages, but sadly, you won't get anywhere that way, either. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:42, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don't have a job here, even a voluntary one, and when I make deletion requests, they're usually really obvious, though I have made some mistakes. You are the author of your photos, but not of the artwork you photograph. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:41, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
- Prepare to be upset, then. Non-commercial licenses are not allowed on Commons. Read COM:Licensing. I feel like you are trying to bargain with me. That won't work because I don't set policy on this site. If it were up to me, Commons would allow non-commercial licenses. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:13, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
- Did you read the link I gave you? As for Wikipedias, they have different policies on fair use. There is no fair use on Commons. I am not going to look through other photos right now, but if you've found some that are in violation of copyright laws, you can request deletion. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:09, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
- No. The copyright belongs to the sculptor. Please read COM:FOP France, and then if you still have questions, let us know. Note that Commons unfortunately requires that images hosted on its servers be usable commercially. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:26, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- That, unfortunately, is French law, not my preference. France does not have a form of COM:Freedom of panorama that permits Commons to host such photos. That's regrettable, but why is it so hard to understand? -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:58, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for your answer, I do understand your position.. If you are right, it seems to me that all the pictures taken in "Vallee des Saints" should be suppressed ??? (as well as many pictures of monuments ????) Scrapdemonik (talk) 09:20, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- If you take photos of old enough statues, they are no longer under copyright. I believe the sculptor must have died at least 70 years ago for a sculpture to be out of copyright in France. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:16, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
Deleted: per nomination. Yes, probably most pictures from that site should be deleted, unless we get a permission from the copyright holder. --Yann (talk) 20:13, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
