This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.
Keep This is a housekeeping page that uses {{TranscludeCRT}} to transclude all the FOP sections for countries in Europe from, e,g. Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Germany#Freedom of panorama, where available. Where not available, it notes "No information available". It has value in showing which countries do not yet have FOP rules, and in allowing comparison between the sections on the individual country pages. Note that this information is no longer held in Commons:Freedom of panorama. See the discussion at Commons talk:Freedom of panorama#Is this page too big?. There is no copyvio since no text is copied. I suggest nominator withdraw this and the nominations for
The nominator is perhaps unfamiliar with the concept of transclusion. It is a technique widely used throughout Wikimedia to pull together content from different sources at display time. For example,
When someone places {{Keep}} on a talk page like this, it renders as Keep.
If someone places [[File:DueStampCzechoslovakia1919Michel1.jpg|file|60px]] on a page, it renders as .
Edit the nominated housekeeping page and you will see a string of templated transclusions like:
{{FOP Country|Albania}}
{{FOP Country|Andorra}}
{{FOP Country|Austria}}
Those templates pull in the contents of sections (if they exist) called "Freedom of panorama" from the source pages. The source of each transcluded entry is clearly attributed in a box to the right. There was no copyvio in the FOP rules text moves and there is no copyvio in the nominated housekeeping list of transcluded sections. Aymatth2 (talk) 00:24, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You may consider it correct, but that's surely not conform with the CC license. For those who don't know the process in detail, the revision history is lost and it looks like you are the only author, which is not the case. --A.Savin01:55, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The approach taken fully conforms with CC requirements. The summary of the edit that adds the text to the target page has a link back to the source page, and notes that the text has been copied from there. A matching summary on the source page notes that the text has been moved to the target. The revision histories are linked forward and backward. Aymatth2 (talk) 02:40, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think I understand the problem, and it comes back to transclusion. Imagine that you write an article about Art Noveau text, and transclude the image to the left to illustrate the article. The edit summary will show that you wrote the whole article, and you did, but you did not create the image. However, if the reader clicks on the image they will be taken to the file description page where it is properly attributed. It would be better to put a caption below the image that says who made it, but the link to the description is technically sufficient.
In the case of Commons:Freedom of panorama/AllEurope, the overall article was indeed written by User:Aymatth2, but the transcluded sections were not. To the right of each section there is a box that says where the section text comes from. The main purpose is to take the reader to the page where they can edit the rules, but the box also gives clear attribution, more than is technically required. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:26, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That may be a better title. I was sort of thinking of the list as "all the countries in Europe", not just the ones with FOP rules, but the description makes that clear. Aymatth2 (talk) 00:24, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Are you aware of the recent ongoing changes? See Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Russia for instance. All countries in the world cannot be transcluded in a single page due to technical limitations of MediaWiki. Post-expand include size for the European page is 728,808/2,097,152 bytes at the moment. That number is 386,886/2,097,152 bytes for the Asian page, 354,962/2,097,152 bytes for the American page, 255,111/2,097,152 bytes for the African page, 34,561/2,097,152 bytes for the Oceanic page, and 178,560/2,097,152 bytes for the FOP page itself. Their sum is 1,938,888/2,097,152 bytes indicating that it will break soon if they are not separated and categorized continent-wise. 4nn1l2 (talk) 06:41, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@4nn1l2: If I am reading it right, Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Consolidated list Europe is now up to post-expand include size: 2,069,022/2,097,152, so has to be broken up. These sets of transcluded pages should not be close to the limits, so I am thinking along the lines of the CIA divisions. I may split up the Americas, Asia and Africa too. These transclusion sets are probably no use to the typical contributor, who just wants to find the rules that may apply to the file they want to upload, but I think do have some maintenance value. They can be chained together with an index bar at the top and bottom, so someone can browse through them one set at a time.
This set of transclusions of FOP sections is nowhere near the limits and can stay the way it is. I will make a category for all the transclusion sets so if a new country or territory emerges it will not be too hard to find where it has to be added. Aymatth2 (talk) 22:53, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Aymatth2: You are addressing an administrator of many many years and close to 200k edits is if they are a fool and don't understand transclusion, I would recommend that you be somewhat more respectful. They have done admirably not to put you straight back into your box. Try an open question if you are not certain what they are trying to communicate. — billinghurstsDrewth07:05, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@A.Savin: I am presuming that your issue is that the page was previously a conglomerate of information in sections, and this has been converted to sections that are transcluded.
Prior to making an assessment, I would like to know what we consider the future for such pages. If they are going to be translated and available in numbers of languages, then I can see the value in having them in constituent parts as that makes translation easier. If the split has taken place just because someone thought it was a good idea, then as you point out, there are certain issues and difficulties with that approach. A single page is indeed easier to watch, whereas now the requirement is to watch many pages. — billinghurstsDrewth07:17, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Billinghurst: I had no idea User:A.Savin was an admin, and am not sure that is relevant. I also have over 100k edits, mostly on Wikipedia.
This restructuring to consolidate all the rules for each country on a page for that country followed extensive debate at Village Pump and was done in a series of steps, with discussion invited on each of those steps. The split/merge was done carefully, as described above, to ensure that the revision histories were linked for each section as it was moved, with forward and backward links in the histories. I have received positive feedback in the form of notes and thanks. It is now easier for people interested in a given country to watch and reference the page for that country, easier for contributors to find whether an image can be uploaded and easier to maintain the rules when a new version of a copyright law is issued.
My guess is that User:A.Savin did not at once spot that the content in this list was transcluded, so thought it was an unattributed cut-and-paste job. I cannot see any way to make the transclusion more obvious. Aymatth2 (talk) 12:24, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Added a light gray background to the section header
Moved the transclusion attribution box up from below the section header, so it now overlaps the right end of the section header
I think that with this change it is impossible to miss the fact that each section is transcluded, where before a reader might have not noticed the attribution box floating to the right of the text. (The old format can be seen at COM:FOP.) On the question of redundancy with COM:FOP, the consolidated lists by continent hold all the available FOP sections, while COM:FOP just holds a static selection. The lists by continent are designed to replace the list in COM:FOP, making that page much more manageable. This has been discussed and received no objections, but is on hold until this discussion is resolved. Aymatth2 (talk) 18:31, 26 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note that the partial list of transcluded sections in COM:FOP has now (following discussion) been replaced by a complete list of shortcuts, so this page is not redundant to COM:FOP. It could, of course, be seen as redundant to the pages from which the content has been transcluded. But I think it has value for housekeeping, making it easier to scan FOP sections when making a particular type of upgrade. Aymatth2 (talk) 20:38, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This is a housekeeping page that uses {{TranscludeCRT}} to transclude all the FOP sections for countries in Europe from, e,g. Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Germany#Freedom of panorama, where available. Where not available, it notes "No information available". It has value in showing which countries do not yet have FOP rules, and in allowing comparison between the sections on the individual country pages. Note that this information is no longer held in Commons:Freedom of panorama. See the discussion at Commons talk:Freedom of panorama#Is this page too big?. There is no copyvio since no text is copied. I suggest nominator withdraw this and the nominations for
.
