Category talk:Panoramas of Indonesia

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This discussion of one or several categories is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Category:Panoramics and all subcategories

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I propose changing all instances of "panoramics" to "panoramic views photographs". "Panoramic" is not considered to be a noun by oxforddictionaries.com nor by merriam-webster.com. Ham II (talk) 08:05, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest changing it from "panoramics" to "panoramic photographs" instead of "panoramic views". The essence of this category is that the files in it consist of photographs which have been stitched together. The present parent category is "Category:Panoramic photography" which would also make "Category:Panoramic photographs" a logical name. - Takeaway (talk) 15:01, 3 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy with that; "panoramic photographs" is also more precise. I've changed the nomination text. Ham II (talk) 05:59, 4 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Takeaway: Not all panoramic photographs have been stitched. There are cameras that take panoramic photos. -- Auntof6 (talk) 22:28, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please note that Category:Panoramic paintings, Category:Panoramic videos‎, Panorama buildings‎ and Panoramic drawings‎ are sub-categories of Category:Panoramics. - Themightyquill (talk) 08:37, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
They should be subcategories of Category:Panoramas instead, alongside Category:Panoramic photographs. Ham II (talk) 12:26, 17 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The noun form of panoramic is panorama (pl. panoramas). However, panoramic photographs would be suitable if separation of photographs from drawings and videos is intended. --Xeror (talk) 19:30, 8 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What I'm proposing is a change of scope as well as a change of name for Category:Panoramics; Category:Panoramas already exists for panoramas in general, so there's no need for an additional "Panoramics" category, but there is an obvious use for a "Panoramic photographs" category. Ham II (talk) 10:25, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Ham II: I'd support creating Category:Panoramic photographs (and a tree of sub-categories) and moving any non-photograph panoramas/panoramics and their categories up to Category:Panoramas. - Themightyquill (talk) 21:53, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've made some progress here, but there is still more to be done. Themightyquill (talk) 15:53, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I support a new order in panoramas and also the new name "panoramic photographs". In the past I have been moving standard pictures - not stiched or otherwise assembled - to other categories which have been filed under panoramics as in some languages "panorama" or its derivatives also means a "nice view". I therefore strongly suggest that in the header of the category there should be a clear description of the type of photographs - stiched ones - which should be filed under this category tree. Simisa (talk) 07:28, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Simisa: Please see my earlier post below below. For stitched images we have Category:Stitched images, and some panoramic photographs that are wide views don't require stitching at all, see Category:Panoramic cameras or en:Category:Panoramic cameras. --Sitacuisses (talk) 18:23, 18 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is still some clarification needed about the definitions and the scope of the Panoramics/Panorama categories. Since they lack category descriptions, one has to look elsewhere for a definition. According to en:Panoramic photography, the defining characteristic is the wide aspect ratio. It's not the fact that the images are stitched together. We have Category:Stitched images for that. There are panoramic cameras that don't require stitching at all, and you can also create a wide aspect ratio by cropping a single photograph. Therefore it's incorrect to place Category:Panoramic photography directly below "Category:Stitched images". Some subcategories of "Category:Stitched images" are already named "Stitched panoramics of ...". This looks like an adequate concept for categorizing the intersection between "stitched images" and "panoramic photographs".
Also, why is Category:Landscapes currently a subcategory of Category:Panoramas? --Sitacuisses (talk) 10:39, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the wide aspect ratio, and the fact that it's of a view, are the defining characteristics of a panorama. Oxforddictionaries.com gives (as meaning #1.1) "A picture or photograph containing a wide view." (Oddly, Merriam-Webster doesn't have a definition that matches this.) So I suggest that our working definition should be "views, of scenery or interiors, with a wide aspect ratio;" the question then is how do we define a wide aspect ratio. Once we've agreed on a definition of "panorama" it should be added to the header of Category:Panoramas.
Re the intersection of "stitched images" and "panoramic photographs", I think that the category tree should go Category:Panoramas → Category:Panoramic photographs → Category:Stitched panoramic photographs.
I've removed Category:Panoramas from Category:Stitched images, and Category:Landscapes from Category:Panoramas. Ham II (talk) 08:36, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree that "panoramic" is an adjective and not a noun. You have "panoramic photographs" and "panoramas" - both correct. Since this is the English Wikipedia, I think we should use English. Bubba73 (talk) 22:51, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

closing discussion: moving the cat tree to "panoramic photographs of xyz".--RZuo (talk) 09:32, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@RZuo: I would like to add something to consider: A panoramic painting or panoramic drawing might go with "panoramas" or "panoramic views", but not with "panoramic photographs".
If consensus is established and adjusted globally, "panoramas" would be more beneficial (more including) compared to "panoramic photographs". Greets Triplec85 (talk) 10:26, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@RZuo: If you meant to do a final closure on this discussion, please do the relevant formatting (with header and footer templates). Thanks. -- Auntof6 (talk) 22:30, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

closed. the new cat tree will be:

panoramas
panoramic photographs
panoramic paintings
panoramic videos
...

most cats currently present will be moved to "panoramic photographs of ...". it will take a long time to finish moving.--RZuo (talk) 21:41, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

notes
  1. subcats should use "of" as preposition (similar to subcats of Category:Photographs by country Category:Views by country Category:Paintings by depicted country), e.g. Category:Panoramas of New York City.
    existing cats using "in" should be moved and become redirects to using "of", e.g. Category:Panoramas in Belgium redirects to Category:Panoramas of Belgium.
  2. subcats of Category:Panoramic videos should use "from" as preposition to conform to the format of Category:Videos by country.
--RZuo (talk) 10:58, 10 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion of one or several categories is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Category:Panoramics by country

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see also: Commons:Categories for discussion/2022/03/Category:Panoramic views of Kyiv, Commons:Categories for discussion/2017/03/Category:Panorama buildings and Category talk:Panoramas

Rename category to Category:Panoramas by country to match parent Category:Panoramas in compliance with the Universality Principle. Note that Category:Panoramics is a redirect to Category:Panoramas. This name change would apply to subcategories as well. Josh (talk) 21:44, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Joshbaumgartner, LBM1948, Ham II, Takeaway, Auntof6, Themightyquill, Xeror, Simisa, Sitacuisses, and Bubba73: Please notice some ambiguity in the naming and use of categories from this categorization branch. Many users use those categories in the broader sense of the word "panorama": as an umberella term for landscape and cityscaape outlooks, open views from mountains, towers or bridges, open remote or global views of cities, structures or landforms etc., as the equivalent of this word is understood in many languages. Another users try to promote the narrow terminological sense as a category for wide-angle images (from what angle? how to measure it?), or for narrow wide images (from what aspect ratio?), independently of their subject. In an effort to promote one of these concepts, users often distort the categorization in the other meaning, and vice versa. The solution would be to split this categorization tree into two with unambiguous, unmistakable names. The proposed renaming perhaps slightly shifts the meaning of the name (in the direction from that special meaning to the more general one - a panorama for the view itself, a panoramic for the picture) without solving the necessity of division. At the same time, it must be borne in mind that the division cannot be done quickly and once, but it would be a very long-term process that will probably never be utterly completed. Rather, it is about setting the direction in which the development of categorization should gradually move. Thus, it is necessary to take into account the fact that in some parts of the categorization tree one meaning prevails, in other parts the other meaning prevails, in some both meanings are mixed together.
Btw., I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't dare to judge whether the dictionaries (mentioned in the sister discussion) can keep up with the development and nuances of English. This is a question of the linguistic approach, whether to measure the quality of language according to dictionaries, or the quality of dictionaries according to how well and accurately they describe the language. Linguistics knows the concept of language productivity, i.e. that language is not a closed set of signs and utterances, but allows creating new forms and new utterances according to semantic and grammatical rules, for example on the principle of analogy. The fact that the substantive form of the adjective is not captured in some dictionaries does not necessarily mean that it does not exist in the language or that it is incorrect. It can be a neologism, an occasionalism or a technical term from a field that the given dictionary does not deal with in detail. A noun formed as a substantive adjective can have a different form and meaning than the noun from which the adjective was formed. Substantiating an adjective through the process of dropping a noun from the phrase is probably also a phenomenon that occurs also in English. --ŠJů (talk) 05:20, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It does not matter what the native language of each user is, because "panorama" and its derivatives come from Greek and there are many Indo-European languages in which it means exactly the same thing. Effectively, Panorama is a noun and panoramic an adjective, so they can and should coexist.
The first one reflects the substantive content of the photo (general view, overview, etc.). The second reflects a formal feature of the image. There may be panoramic photos that are not panoramas, such as panoramics of trees or cloisters.
On the other hand, there are thousands of panoramas that are not panoramic, in the photographic sense of the word, which is the one that must prevail in an image repository.
In analog times panoramic photos were taken with special cameras (usually with a rotating lens). Nowadays they are achieved by merging two or more image files using the appropriate software.
Summing up: I do not agree with renaming, neither in the short nor in the long term. LBM1948 (talk) 08:09, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Question @LBM1948: Would you classify the contents of Category:Panoramics by country as "panoramas" or "panoramics"? (I am asking about the actual contents, not the name.) Josh (talk) 22:16, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
it was already decided in Commons:Categories for discussion/2018/02/Category:Panoramics to adopt
panoramas
panoramic photographs
panoramic paintings
panoramic videosŠJů
...
and most cats currently present will be moved to "panoramic photographs of ...".
if you have nothing new to say, then there's nothing to discuss. RZuo (talk) 02:08, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@RZuo: You are correct that the existing consensus is to use "panoramas" and sub-divide by type of media with "panoramic" as an adjective for "panoramic photographs", etc. I do not see a consensus here to overturn that prior resolution, so I think we can go forward with conforming to the original consensus, no? Josh (talk) 17:12, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
yes.
just to clarify something. i said "most cats currently present will be moved to "panoramic photographs of ..."" because many of them really just contain photos. but for some countries which have a lot more content and already contain videos paintings etc., the layer "panoramas" becomes necessary. ofc nothing against building the "panoramas of <country>" layer for every country now.
i didnt finish moving the tree because i wanted to build a new automated tool first: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Idea_Lab&oldid=725540609#Script_/_supervised_bot_to_help_cfd . also some moves require sysop right to overwrite existing junk pages. it's too tedious to do this mechanical job manually. i aim to get the tool ready by the end of this year. for now i think it's ok to leave it like this temporarily. it's not the most urgent thing or the worst maintenance problem. RZuo (talk) 17:30, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This category discussion has been closed.
Consensus Resolved by consensus
Actions Rename Category:Panoramics by country to Category:Panoramas by country
Participants
Closed by Josh (talk) 11:50, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment Execution of action can wait on a tool or can be done manually in the meantime at users' discretion.
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