User talk:Grabado

Welcome to Wikimedia Commons, Grabado!

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-- Wikimedia Commons Welcome (talk) 17:03, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

"Roman Catholic" vs. "Catholic"

I see you are making changes like moving Category:Roman Catholic education to Category:Catholic education. Was this recently discussed and I missed it, or are you doing this unilaterally? Last time it was discussed several years ago, there was a clear consensus for "Roman Catholic". "Catholic" can include the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church, the Church of the East, the Anglican Communion and Continuing Anglicanism, and Independent Catholic churches. - Jmabel ! talk 15:03, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

• Moved from User talk:Jmabel. Let's keep the conversation in one place. Hello, Jmabel. Sorry if I’m not able to write an extended text, I’m on mobile now. Anyway, I’ll be online again tomorrow.

I’m making those changes unilaterally, based on what I said a few days ago in Category_talk:Catholic Church. The problem is that “Roman Catholic Church” was being used as a synonym of the Latin Church (the Western part of the Catholic Church, in opposition to the Eastern Catholic Churches), while actually is a synonym of the whole Catholic Church. I’m not trying to rename all the categories but just to redirect Category:Roman Catholic Church to Category:Catholic Church. --Grabad (talk) 15:40, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Could you hold off on this and let's discuss (either at CFD or at the Village pump)? As I say, you are definitely going against the consensus we reached last time we discussed this. Yes, there are Eastern Catholic Churches that are quite closely connected to Roman Catholic, but, again, as noted above, Catholic can refer to a lot of churches that do not have that close connection. I'd rather see us handle Eastern Catholic Churches parallel to Roman Catholic, with perhaps some category to bring the two together, rather than have category names that imply the inclusion of (for example) Anglo-Catholicism within the Anglican communion. - Jmabel ! talk 15:50, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

@Jmabel: Yes, sure. I'll stop until further discussion. --Grabado (talk) 15:53, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

I suggest we at least start this at the VP, because things often languish for years at CFD. Is that OK with you? - Jmabel ! talk 23:37, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

• I took the liberty of starting this discussion on the VP. Please clarify there if you don't think I've accurately represented your view. - Jmabel ! talk 18:57, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

@Jmabel: Thank you for starting the discussion. I've been trying to better explain my view. --Grabado (talk) 16:04, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

And now I see another obviously controversial change with no discussion or explanation. Why would Category:Syro-Malabar Catholic Church not belong in Category:Christianity in India? Do you next propose to remove Category:Greek Orthodox Church from Category:Christianity in Greece? - Jmabel ! talk 16:48, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

@Jmabel: Here you have. There's only one category under Category:Syro-Malabar Catholic Church by country since I'm working with a country at a time, but I'm doing the same I did on Category:Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church by country, Category:Melkite Greek Catholic Church by country and Category:Maronite Catholic Church by country. Just give me some time to complete the category with more countries.

Category:Syro-Malabar Catholic Church in India is under Category:Eastern Catholic Churches in India‎ which is under Category:Christianity in India. It's simply a more specific category, as you did here.

Anyway, I would like you to appreciate the work I'm doing. Sorry, but your last message sound like if I were trying to make wrong changes. Look [1] [2] [3] [4] [5][6][7] [8]

[9] [10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18]. I'm nearly checking church by church if they are correctly categorised, not simply moving all churches from "Roman Catholic churches" to "Catholic Churches of the Latin Church". It's a huge amount of work, but I'm trying to help Commons with my area of expertise. Of course I can make mistakes (I would understand If you want Category:Syro-Malabar Catholic Church categorised under Category:Christianity in India, if you prefer to think about where was this Church founded rather than where this Church is nowadays), but I consider my edits being really helpful.

Veo que tienes un nivel avanzado de español. ¿Te importa que a partir de ahora hable contigo en español o prefieres que continúe en inglés? A mí no me importa hacer el esfuerzo si prefieres el inglés, pero podría explicar mejor mis cambios si lo hago en español. Un saludo. --Grabado (talk) 06:40, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Grabado: You need to stop, period. Your reclassifications are nonsensical and unhelpful to our users attempting to find things. No Roman Catholic church in the United States identifies itself as anything except "Roman Catholic". You will not find "Latin Church" anywhere on them, and we should not identify them in a way that they themselves do not use, and which baffles the user. If you want to create a new category, something like "Churches in communion with the Pope" and a sub-category "Latin Rite churches" and put all Roman Catholic churches in that category leaving the current extensive Roman Catholic category structure in place, I think it's a waste of time, but you're welcome to do so. What you're not welcome to do is change an existing category structure willy-will based on your own idiosyncratic ideas. PLEASE UNDO ALL CATEGORY CHANGES YOU MADE WHICH ELIMINATED "ROMAN CATHOLIC" AND REPLACED IT WITH "LATIN CHURCH". Since you made these changes, it is your responsibility to undo them, but if you don't, they will be undone in any event. I'd also advise you not to make any more changes of this type to other religious categories without first getting a consensus from the Commons community to do so, as your judgment in this matter appears to be faulty. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:31, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

I almost agree with Beyond My Ken. My advise against his: DO NOT waste your time with the crazy changes you are making. They are unwieldy and use terminology that next to no one uses making this database useless to the vast majority people who seek to use it. I will be in the process of reverting all your changes that I can find. Now I'm wasting my time. Thanks. Farragutful (talk) 13:17, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

You've created a more extensive clusterf*** than I realized. You better get busy and undo the damage you have created. Farragutful (talk) 13:28, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

@Farragutful: I suppose it is too difficult for you to wait and explain your views in the two threads related to this topic in the Village pump before making any changes, even more when I've said to Beyond My Ken I'll stop until further discussion. --Grabado (talk) 13:56, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

It wasn't there the last time I looked, so my apologies. However, do not minimize how your unilateral decision making infuriates the rest of us who use this database on a regular basis. Farragutful (talk) 14:35, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

@Farragutful: Maybe because the community have being ignoring me since the 1st of may [19], before I started making any changes, and after when I was asked to explain the problem in the Village pump [20]. This is not a respectful way to treat people that are trying to help this project with good faith and explaining everything they are doing before they do anything. --Grabado (talk) 14:42, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

No, you were not ignored. I said quite clearly that I disagreed with you. I don't think I need to restate that every time you repeat the same thing. - Jmabel ! talk 15:03, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

@Jmabel: As far as I can read English, you said "I continue to prefer the term Roman Catholic", which (as I repeatedly said) was an option of my proposal. Actually I mentioned you saying that it was perfectly posible to keep saying "Roman Catholic" and asking if I could go on but you didn't answer to that.

@Jmabel: It has never been a matter of using one term or the other, but using one single criteria instead of two (as I've repeated AGAIN in the Village pump) --Grabado (talk) 15:07, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

(This was intended as a reply to you from my conversation above, but your other conversation intervened.) This is not the place for you to have your feelings and beliefs validated. Also, do not assume the rest of us take the time to visit the Village Pump and the like on a regular basis. I do not have the time or interest to follow every comment or idea that is put forth there. I am, however, a regular contributor to the Commons content and when I cannot find what I have known to have existed for years I become agitated, and your hurt feelings do not mitigate that. There are forums, as you know, to make changes. I contribute when I see that a particular category I use regularly is slated for a change, but generally not before. If your ideas do not get traction then you move on. Not everyone agrees with my beliefs and ideas. I understand the process of building consensus for my ideas, and sometimes there are simply not enough people who agree or care. One simply has to deal with that, but feeling put out and then go forward and impose your ideas on everyone else anyway is not the answer. Farragutful (talk) 15:21, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

@Farragutful: Believe me or not, I really appreciate your comment. It was a simply matter of saying me "You're wrong because THIS and THIS", or "Sorry, after waiting for weeks no one has answered to your proposal, so you can't go on". It would had been so nice if someone had answered me after fulfilling the requirements made by the other users and asking if i could finally proceed, as I did [21]. A simply "NO" would have been valid. --Grabado (talk) 15:28, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

What you don't seem to understand is that a single editor questioning long-standing consensus doesn't automatically make that consensus null-and-void. It stands until you have a consensus for something else. You do not have that, and I'm be damned if I'm going to waste my time with frivolous discussions simply because one editor wants to impose their very idiosyncratic ideas on our categories. Face it, you don't have a consensus, you're not going to have a consensus, you can open as many discussions on the Village Pump as you like and it's never going to result in anything except "Roman Catholic" being the operative term. And there's a good reason for that: it's what's used in the real world, so it's what our users expect to see, and why we should provide it for them. Categorization by specialized terminology might be useful in a specialized database, but this is a place where ordinary people go to find images and such, not a den of theologians. Please assist Farragutful and undo the "clusterf***" you've created, restoring it to what was there before you began to meddle with it. You created the mess, you need to help clean it up. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:22, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

And, again, I ask, why does Category:Syro-Malabar Catholic Church any less belong in Category:Christianity in India than Category:Greek Orthodox Church belongs in Category:Christianity in Greece? It's not that every Syro-Malabarian church is in India (any more than every Greek Orthodox church is in Greece). It's that it is a religion strongly associated with a place. - Jmabel ! talk 23:06, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

@Jmabel: I think I replied you yesterday to that question. I suppose you haven't seen it --Grabado (talk) 06:06, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

A mí no me importa tampoco si Vd. prefiere escribir en español. Puedo leerlo sin dificultades, pero, dado que entiende inglés, yo mismo prefiero escribir en inglés porque puedo hacerlo más precisamente.

Yes, I saw your response above. And it did not really address my question, which I have repeated. Category:Syro-Malabar Catholic Church emphatically belongs in Category:Christianity in India, just as Category:Greek Orthodox Church belongs in Category:Christianity in Greece or (for a parallel example outside of religion) Category:Blues belongs in Category:Folk music of the United States even if not every blues musician is an American, and not every performance by an American blues musician is in the United States.

The purpose of Commons categories is not some sort of epistemological exercise. It is to enable people to find things where a reasonable person would look for them. - Jmabel ! talk 06:47, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

@Jmabel: It's wonderful when both assume good faith. Only if we believe the other person is just trying to help Commons we'll be able to work together. As I admitted in my first reply (sorry, I thought it addressed your question), I would understand your position if you prefer to think about where was this Church founded. That's a perfect valid view, so I've undo my edit. Thanks for your time. --Grabado (talk) 07:07, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Please consider addressing this user in a more civilised way. Chicbyaccident (talk) 15:47, 20 June 2017 (UTC) Chicbyaccident (talk) 15:47, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

COM:AN/U

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Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems. This is about your refusal to revert your non-consensual changes to the Roman Catholic category hierarchy.

Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:42, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

Hi

Hello, Grabado A page has just been translated to Spanish Wikipedia called Protodulia by a user but I think there is a lack of information and I ask you to look for information on Wikipedia in Italian or Wikipedia in Portuguese so that you can get more information and translate it into Spanish Wikipedia On its page called Protodulia 2806:103E:B:BD28:F590:AF84:7AFF:4B7E 20:22, 20 April 2023 (UTC)