User talk:Doewiets

Welcome to Wikimedia Commons, Doewiets!

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Zuid-Nederlandse schilders

Beste Doewiets, Ik weet dat je al een tijdje actief bent of wikipedia/commons, maar toch nog van harte welkom.

Om gelijk met de deur in huis te vallen... Ik zag dat je bezig bent Vlaamse c.q. Zuid-Nederlandse schilders te bewerken. Dit is al een heel oud probleem hier op commons. Want, welke betekenis van Vlaanderen gebruik je? Graafschap, gemeenschap of gewest? Hoe zit het dan met schilders uit Luik, Bergen, Namen, enz. van voor de oprichting van België?

Om een eind te maken aan al dat soort kwesties is (door mij) de categorie Category:Painters from the Southern Netherlands (before 1830) gemaakt, die dus alle Vlaamse, Waalse, Brabantse, Luikse, enz. schilders bevat van voor 1830. Deze oplossing zou afdoende moeten zijn, maar suggesties voor verbetering zijn altijd welkom.

Ik zag ook dat je de term Vlaams prefereert boven Zuid-Nederlands. Ik neem aan in de betekenis van het gewest c.q. de gemeenschap. Mag ik vragen waarom?

Mvg, Vincent Steenberg (talk) 14:01, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi Vincent,

Thanks for your message. The principal reason is that these painters have always been called Flemish. When Rubens, Van Dyck etc. went abroad, they were always identified as Flemish painters. If you go to the Rijksmuseum, the Met, the Prado or any other museum, they will have collections of Flemish painters (or art) and Dutch painters (or art). They will not have collections of Southern Netherlandish painters. The art of Rubens etc has always been called 'Flemish Baroque', not 'Southern-Netherlandish Baroque'. So the term 'Flemish' is generally used and recognised and does not pose an inherent problem. Wikipedia and wiki commons should follow common usage and not create a new naming tradition which is not commonly in use.

The expression 'Southern-Netherlandish' has problems when applied to people as it was initially not used in that way. The term was invented some time in the last century by art historians to identify art or artefacts that in style were seen as being representative of the Flemish style as opposed to the Dutch style (and usually in the context of works by unknown artists which could then be classified as 'Southern-Netherlandish'). Although some historians have started to use the term "Southern Netherlandish' to refer to persons, this is not common and Flemish still seems to be the most commonly used.

As far as I know, there never was a nation called the "Southern Netherlands'. The Spanish-Habsburg Netherlands were a region under the control of the Habsburg dynasty and as such did not confer a nationality on its inhabitants who were subjects of the Spanish or Austrian crown. Liege was historically also not part of that region. Further, the art produced by these Flemish artists is in the first place part of the Flemish cultural heritage and only secondly part of Belgian culture. Calling Rubens et alii Southern-Netherlandish denies this fact.

The term 'Southern-Netherlandish' further has the problem that many people interpret it as referring to a sub-category of Dutch (as it is easily misunderstood as 'from the south of the Netherlands'). This confusion between Dutch and Flemish is rampant on wiki and I have encountered many wiki articles which refer to Flemish artists or scientists etc as being Dutch. This problem has been exacerbated by the use of the term 'Netherlandish', which is so poorly chosen.

If one wants to use the term Southern-Netherlandish should one then not also use the term 'Northern-Netherlandish' for Dutch people up to the foundation of the kingdom of the Netherlands? Very good arguments could be made that what is now referred to as the 'Dutch Republic' was in fact only a loose confederation of independent states (Holland, Zeeland etc.) which by means of various treaties had decided to act together on certain matters but claimed autonomy in many areas (as is demonstrated by the fact that each of the states had their own delegation to the Peace of Münster negotiations which they each signed separately). So Rembrandt would no longer be a Dutch artist but become a Northern-Netherlandish artist or a Hollandish artist and we would need to create a separate category Category:Painters from the Northern Netherlands (before 1815).

I also do not understand why there should be a category of Category:Painters from the Southern Netherlands (before 1830) if the people included in it are actually all people who lived in an area which is identical to what is now the territory of Belgium. As a result the distinction before and after 1830 does not have any meaning at all. One might then as well put them all together under an all-embracing category with the painters from Belgium. If one wants to maintain the category Category:Painters from the Southern Netherlands (before 1830), then one should still not refer to the Flemish artists as 'Southern-Netherlandish' artists but rather as Flemish artists for the reasons mentioned above and it should also be allowed to create sub-categories of Flemish artists in reference to style periods or the genre of painting that they practised (as the English-language wikipedia does). Doewiets (talk) 17:22, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello Doewiets,

It's complicated stuff. At least, that's what I think. When I started work on Category:Painters from the Netherlands, I found a lot of Flemish/Southern Netherlandish painters there. Not because people made a mistake, but simply because in some countries the difference between Flemish, Dutch and Netherlandish, isn't that clear (see for example de:Rogier van der Weyden). That's why I decided to split Category:Painters from the Netherlands into Category:Painters from the Southern Netherlands (before 1830) and Category:Painters from the Northern Netherlands (before 1830) (both parts of the Low Countries under one category). The other reason was the in my view anachronistic use of the name "Flanders". I mean, did Rubens really see himself als Flemish? If Rubens was Flemish than so was Hieronymus Bosch. After all, both lived in Brabant. And like I menioned earlier: what to you about painters from Namur and Hainaut (I won't mention Liège again). In my opinion these are reasons one might want to avoid the term Flemish. Or am I being too political now?

However, you do have a point that this construction is a bit artificial and does not reflect most (English language) literature. So if it makes it easier to find what you are looking for by renaming Category:Painters from the Southern Netherlands (before 1830) into Category:Painters from Flanders, I don't have any objections to that. However, what do you propose we do with the Namur and Hainaut painters. Create a category Category:painters from Wallonia?

Regards, Vincent Steenberg (talk) 21:33, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi Vincent

First, Flemish was not anachronistic at all as all of these artists were called Flemish in their own time. Rubens was always called Flemish (he was known in Italy as 'Pietro Paolo fiammingo" early in his career) and he would likely have called himself Flemish not Belgian or Southern-Netherlandish as the two latter terms were not in use at the time but are only a product of the 19th-20th centuries. The term Flemish was more generally used for inhabitants of the Habsburg Netherlands anyway. It is indeed so that an argument could be made that Bosch for calling Flemish (as he lived under Burgundian rule) rather than Dutch since the Dutch political entity only came into being after the Dutch revolt and Dutch would have been anachronistic in his time. In the past Bosch was considered one of the "Flemish primitives' before this expression became politically incorrect. But enough history. I don't mind keeping the painters in the existing category Category:Painters from the Southern Netherlands (before 1830) as long as we do not call them 'Southern-Netherlandish' but rather Flemish or Walloon (as the case may be) in the creator page. And then we can still create sub-categories for Flemish or Walloon landscape painters, etc. Doewiets (talk) 16:16, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, enough history. It's very tempting to go through all the terminology and historiography, but if you prefer Flemish over Southern Netherlandish I can understand that. So thank you for your feedback. However, I do think that for the sake of clarity its wise to replace the entire Category:Painters from the Southern Netherlands (before 1830) by Category:Painters from Flanders/Category:Painters from Wallonia. One excludes the other, I think. For the so-called Flemish primitives there is the Category:Early Netherlandish painters. This category stood the test of time quite well, I think. So I think its a good idea to keep it. Also, this solves the problem of Hieronymus Bosch as well as other North Brabant painters. Vincent Steenberg (talk) 18:10, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I understand, but those expressions when used for people in the 15th-19th centuries create the idea there was some area called Wallonia and Flanders that you can identify (and creates important issues with the current territorial/administrative division of Belgium, in particular Brussels). The expressions Category:Walloon painters and Category:Flemish painters within an overarching category Category:Painters from the Southern Netherlands (before 1830) is preferable in order to avoid forcing present-day realities onto the past. Again, the overriding principle should be that wiki commons follows established practice rather than creates new terminology or divisions. Painters like Rubens were always 'Flemish painters' rather than 'painters from Flanders' etc. But my preference would still be to just keep what we have, i.e. a category Category:Painters from the Southern Netherlands (before 1830) and change the creator pages to reflect that someone was Flemish or Walloon, this way you keep the idea of a common administrative area (Southern Netherlands) and different people living there and thus reflects the complex realities in that region (sometimes difficult to grasp by outsiders). - Doewiets (talk) 03:20, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

The purpose of categories are to store files and make it easier to find what you are looking for. See for more information Commons:Categories. In my view categories are not intended to 'tell a story' or act as a 'did you know...' section. So I'm not in favour of elaborate category trees. A Category:Painters from Belgium, Category:Painters from the Netherlands, Category:Painters from Flanders, Category:Painters from Wallonia, and, if you like, Category:Painters from Luxembourg, should cover all of the Low Countries painters. To make life a little bit easier we on commons have decided to name all people categories <people> from <country>, for example Category:Hairdressers from Argentina, Category:Physicians from Jordan, etc., etc. So 'Painters from Flanders' is preferred over 'Flemish painters'. Vincent Steenberg (talk) 17:05, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

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Scoopfinder^(d) 02:47, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

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Scoopfinder^(d) 02:48, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

File:Pieter van Bloemen - Camp scene.jpg

Hi, could you please don't change file names for National Museum in Warsaw files? The names are starting from the last name of the author. It might be entirely wrong for you, however thanks to this they are automatically sorted, thank you for your understanding.Artinpl (talk) 09:56, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Category:Allegorical_and_mythological_paintings_by_Frans_Floris

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Auntof6 (talk) 03:55, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

File:Karel Philips Spierincks - The drunken Silenus tied up in his sleep by the nymph Aegle and putti.tiff

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