User talk:Akhenaten0

Update of File:Organization of Autocephalus Eastern Orthodox Churches.svg

Hello! Do you plan to update File:Organization of Autocephalus Eastern Orthodox Churches.svg? I am willing to collaborate to give some insight and feedback (see for example here). I ask because someone already requested an update; moreover the autocephalous w:Orthodox Church of Ukraine now exists, and the w:Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox churches in Western Europe has switched jurisdiction: it has left Constantinople and joined the Moscow Patriarchate. Also, the legend has lots of problems. Veverve (talk) 16:03, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

That's great! Thanks so much! Long-term, I would love to do some cleanup on the file—make the SVG plaintext more human-readable. But that will have to be delayed, I think. --Akhenaten0 (talk) 19:30, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Ah yes. Now I remember why I hadn’t changed it. I was waiting to see how things in Ukraine were shaking out. Even after the creation of the UCO, things still seem to be in flux, as the UOC-KP under Filaret is now asserting independence from UCO. Also, if you could help illuminate the positions of Moscow and Constantinople on UOC-KP/Filaret, I would be much appreciative. From my inexpert looking, it seems that Filaret himself is very anti-Moscow, but not approved of by Constantinople. It’s a broken comparison, but I wonder if we’re just waiting for a Martin V. On that note, though, I’m considering leaving that file as representative of the controversy over the Pan-Orthodox Council, and then produce something along the lines of File:Western schism 1378-1417.svg or File:SaintThomasChristian'sDivisionsHistoryFinal.png. --Akhenaten0 (talk)

Sidenote on Filaret: see the article I wrote: w:Conflict between Filaret and Epiphanius. "From my inexpert looking, it seems that Filaret himself is very anti-Moscow, but not approved of by Constantinople." that is exactly the situation. The Martin V was supposed to be the w:Unification council of the Eastern Orthodox churches of Ukraine. Few parished followed Filaret when he left the OCU on 20 June 2019. Veverve (talk) 20:35, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Introduction

I believe you could make an updated version of how the Eastern Orthodox Church is now organized. Still, you should update the current version even if you want to leave it "as representative of the controversy over the Pan-Orthodox Council", because it has some problems. Among them is the legend (why are the Russian Orthodox and the OCA blue? What does ---> mean?), and the boxes are too small for the texts.
Here is a draft of the biggest things I would change (apart from the obvious problem of boxes being to small for the text they contain). I removed the arrows because they were useless and confusing. We still have to use a designated colour for the box of each autocephalous church.
The globe is from File:584-globe-showing-Europe-Africa.svg
Please upload your draft on a website like Imgur, Google Drive or something like that, because your draft will not be ready to be uploaded on Commons. Veverve (talk) 20:31, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

A few things.

• First, the color was just arbitrary. Because the main division seems to be between Constantinople and Moscow, those were the only two colors I deemed necessary between churches, rather than the red/yellow difference between autocephalous and autonomous. There’s certainly confusion with yellow also being the color of POC attendance. If this chart moves beyond the POC focus, then certainly the color coding needs to be changed. Additionally, if that’s the case, we can probably jettison any POC reference.
• Second, the arrows were meant to connect the autonomous churches to the autocephalous churches they are under. The dotted line from Russia to the Orthodox Church in America is because Moscow recognizes the OCA’s autocephaly; now that I see that other autocephalous churches have recognized it, I don’t think I would color OCA blue, but rather green, for non-POC, non-Russia. If I have arrows still, the arrows would be from all other autocephalous churches as well—but more probably no arrows, which otherwise indicate hierarchy, not equality.
• Third, for the issue of the UOC-Kyiv, perhaps a purple box, which may include other things as well (UAOC-Canonical?). Here’s a basic version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akhenaten0 (talk • contribs) 21:07, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

I will try to use some precise vocabulary from now on in order for us not to get confused. Note that my draft is meant solely to help making an updated version of your schematic. Feel free to take inspiration from it if you want to make a cleaned (i.e. not updated) version of your schematic "as representative of the controversy over the Pan-Orthodox Council".

I strongly advise you not to start adding all the unrecognized churches, because 1) it's a rabbit hole, 2) your schematic would have a huge section of text listing them, which is not something a schematic should have and would be redundant with Wikipedia. Veverve (talk) 21:36, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

As for the colours, my idea is for each Church to have a different colour. It would help knowing which autonomous church belongs to which church easily. The same effort has been made here. Veverve (talk) 21:41, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

On that file, good job! However, isn't the North American status more complicated? What about all the other Greek/Russian/Etc. Orthodox Churches throughout? --Akhenaten0 (talk) 21:45, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

As the description says: "In order to keep this map understandable, only the main autonomous churches are indicated; in cases where the map would have become too unclear (i.e. overlaping jurisdictions) the autonomous churches have been left out." Veverve (talk) 21:57, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

"Autocephalous Archbishoprics" should be renamed into "Autocephalous archbishoprics and metropolis" Veverve (talk) 00:55, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

"Albanian Orthodox Church" should be "Orthodox Church of Albania". The Church of Georgia should be shortened to "Orthodox Church of Georgia". Veverve (talk) 01:04, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Draft 1

Okay, how's this for a start? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akhenaten0 (talk • contribs) 12:52, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

It looks better. However, 1) the ROCOR should be "of" Russia, and you capitalized random letters; 2) the Orthodox Church of Georgia should be... "Orthodox Church of Georgia"; 3) some churches are in blue and blue is not in the legend.

I do not know if you are going for a cleaned or updated version. If cleaned: removed the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, it did not exist back in 2016. If updated: move the w:Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox churches in Western Europe to the Russian Orthodox Church, it switched jurisdiction last year. Veverve (talk) 16:19, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Draft 2

Update—how's this? Uncolored for non-POC. Should be updated to current state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akhenaten0 (talk • contribs) 21:11, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

The Orthodox Church in American should be above the OCU

"Autocephaly partially recognized" should be between the ~ line and the names of the churches.

the Orthodox Church of Georgia should be "Orthodox Church of Georgia", the "Albanian Orthodox Church" should be "Orthodox Church of Albania"

the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not recognize the Archdiocese of Russian Orthodox churches in Western Europe anymore (read the Wikip. article for more information).

Sidenote: I am used to separate the drafts into sub-headings, tell me if it bothers you.

Veverve (talk) 22:05, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

I love separating things by Draft. Thanks! For Georgia, I renamed it according to your mockup. Was that wrong? Also, for the AROCWE, A) should we remove the "Archdiocese of," and B) does Constantinople not recognize them, or not recognize Moscow's authority over them? When the Ecumenical Patriarch disbanded them, where was he intending them to go, if not to Russia? They were under Constantinople, but they are disbanded, so then the humans and buildings and relics and positions should have been merged with the the Greek Metropolitan, under the EPC? --Akhenaten0 (talk) 23:03, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

"For Georgia, I renamed it according to your mockup. Was that wrong?" -> yes, but that was my fault for not renaming it "Orthodox Church of Georgia" directly. Same for the Orthodox Church of Albania.

A) "should we remove the "Archdiocese of,"" -> no, it is the official name.

B) "does Constantinople not recognize them, or not recognize Moscow's authority over them?" -> well, they asked them to be dissolved so whatever jurisdiction they went, Constantinople does not recognize them.

"so then the humans and buildings and relics and positions should have been merged with the the Greek Metropolitan, under the EPC?" -> "On 28 November, a communiqué concerning the Ecumenical Patriarchate's decision to dissolve its exarchate of the AROCWE was published in French on the Phanarion blog[28] and on the official Facebook page of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.[29] The communiqué says the Ecumenical Patriarchate "decided to revoke the patriarchal tomos of 1999 by which it granted pastoral care and administration of orthodox parishes of Russian tradition in Western Europe to His Archbishop-Exarch. [...] [T]he ecumenical patriarchate has decided to integrate and connect parishes to the various holy Metropolises of the ecumenical patriarchate in the countries where they are located."[30]" (source). So, in whatever country they were, the parishes, clerics, etc. of the AROCWE were to join the other jurisdictions of the Ecum. Patr. in the territory in which they were (e.g. parishes of the AROCWE in France joined the w:Greek Orthodox Metropolis of France, those in Italy joined the w:Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy and Malta, so on and so forth).Veverve (talk) 23:40, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Ah, okay, I've got it. EPC said, essentially, AROCWE in France, join GOMF; AROCWE in Italy, join GOAIM," then much of AROCWE said, "But we want to keep our Russian style of things," and so looked to ROC, RomOC, OCA, and ROC let them be most "themselves." Right? --Akhenaten0 (talk) 23:56, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Yes, they wanted to keep their ways and thought the only way to do so was for the AROCWE to continue to exist as a full, autonomous entity like it was before the Ecumenical Patriarchate decided to (try to) disband them in 2018. Therefore, the AROCWE asked the ROCOR, RomOC, OCA, and the ROC to welcome the AROCWE. The ROC was the only one which accepted the AROCWE "as is". I speculate that the fact the AROCWE is very liberal, along with pressures from the ROC, might have deterred the other churches; but those are only suppositions and I have nothing to back them up. Veverve (talk) 00:27, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Draft 3

Update --Akhenaten0 (talk) 13:43, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

1) Again, the name of the Georgian Orthodox Church.

2) the OCA should be above the OCU

3) "Autocephaly Partially Recognized" -> "Autocephaly partially recognized"

4) "Metropolitan Church of Bessarabia" 1) should be "Metropolis of Bessarabia", 2) is not recognized by the Russian Orthodox Church

5) "Moldovan Orthodox Church" 1) should be "Metropolis of Chișinău and All Moldova", 2) is not recognized by the Romanian Orthodox Church

Veverve (talk) 14:09, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Draft 4

Update --Akhenaten0 (talk) 13:42, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

"Not recognized by the Ecumenical Patriarch" -> "Not recognized by the Ecumenical Patriarchate"

The OCA should be above the OCU.

"Georgian Orthodox Church" should be "Orthodox Church of Georgia"

Veverve (talk) 14:16, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

1,2: Sorry! I’ll get on those. 3: Change it again, again? —Akhenaten0 (talk)

I asked you multiple times to use "Orthodox Church of Georgia" instead of the full name. Moreover, "Orthodox Church of Georgia" is a more faithful translation than "Georgian Orthodox Church". I inadvertently used "Georgian Orthodox Church" only once, in my previous feedback. So, yes, change it again to "Orthodox Church of Georgia". Veverve (talk) 19:38, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Draft 5

Sorry for my tone earlier, Veverve. Here's the update. Also, I noticed that the older image has "citation needed" next to this. Would you be good about writing up documentation? --Akhenaten0 (talk) 13:16, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

There is no problem with your tone, it is fine.

I do not understand what you are referring to by "this" and I do not see any "citation needed" in the previous version. Veverve (talk) 15:34, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Huh. I could have sworn that the w:Eastern Orthodox Church organization page had a “citation needed” next to the image. Doesn’t now, or in previous uses. I wonder: was I looking at a previous usage? I don’t know how to search for non-current uses of an image. Thanks! —Akhenaten0 (talk)

you can check the previous versions here. I do not know when you looked at the page, so I cannot help you. I believe your schematic is w:Wikipedia:Common knowledge (or maybe not, may depend on how well versed the person is in Eastern Orthodoxy). See also this personal essay: w:Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue. Veverve (talk) 22:08, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

"Autocephalous Archbishoprics" should be renamed into "Autocephalous archbishoprics and metropolis" Veverve (talk) 22:20, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

w:Monastic Republic of Mount Athos should be added to the autonomous churches of the Ecum. Patr. and should be at the top of the list of the autonomous churches of the Ecum. Patr. Veverve (talk) 22:24, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

"Metropolis" or is the plural "Metropoles"? "Metropolises"? --Akhenaten0 (talk) 16:43, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Use whatever word you see fit. Veverve (talk) 16:46, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Draft 6

Here --Akhenaten0 (talk) 16:54, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

"Churches in America" should use another symbol than a star. Use whatever symbole you want (square, circle, anything goes). Veverve (talk) 17:21, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Any particular reason? --Akhenaten0 (talk) 17:23, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Stars are used both mostly to show both unrecognition and to show having churches in America. It makes things confusing to use the same symbol for two different meanings. Veverve (talk) 17:32, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Fair point. Will do. --Akhenaten0 (talk) 17:37, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Draft 6.5 --Akhenaten0 (talk) 17:56, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Good! Do you believe you have to indicate that some churches have parishes in the American continent? Because they almost all do; most of the times those churchesin America are not autonomous (e.g. w:Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, w:Russian Orthodox Patriarchal Parishes in the USA, w:Serbian Orthodox Church in North and South America, Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem in North and South America, etc.). I believe the information of having parishes in America could be completly removed. Sorry for having made you change something I now think should be removed. Veverve (talk) 18:32, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

The reason I initially listed American churches is because it seems that several autonomous or autocephalous churches claim the Americas as their bailiwick, similar to the Ukraine/Moldova(/Macedonia?) situation. That there seems to be quite a bit of overlap is part of what I wanted to highlight, as I was already highlighting the Moscow/Constantinople(/Romanian, thank you) split. --Akhenaten0 (talk) 18:41, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

You can keep or delete this information, do however you feel. The schematic is, I think, now ready and you can upload it on Commons. Veverve (talk) 18:55, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Seems like there is some problems with your .svg. If you need help to fix it, I suggest asking User:Goran tek-en. Veverve (talk) 21:32, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

The font issues? I have some ideas of how to fix them, but if they want to fix it, go ahead! —Akhenaten0 (talk)

I mean this. Veverve (talk) 03:29, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Also, the PNG generated has some problems as you can see. Veverve (talk) 03:32, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

@Veverve: , @Akhenaten0: I don't really understand if you ask me or not. But to me it's always best that the creator fix all issues as far as possible. After that one can ask someone else who might be able to help. --Goran tek-en (talk) 11:48, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

So, Akhenaten0, have you had any success in fixing the map? Veverve (talk) 20:09, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Oh, after uploading a new version of an image, you must ust ctrl+F5 to clear the cache so that the image in Commons is updated. Veverve (talk) 01:40, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Sure. By now, I have fought the twin dragons Illustrator and Inkscape, and have edited and cleaned the file in plaintext, and have changed fonts to public domain, and have wrestled with CSS font tags, and have resolved that still there are Wikipedia PNG auto-conversion bugs that I cannot fix. The SVG looks good, the PNGs don't so much. --Akhenaten0 (talk) 16:32, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Good job then! However, from the first thing I see when clicking the SVG, you might want to consider reducing quite a lot the size of the SVG. Veverve (talk) 16:51, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't understand what that image is supposed to be showing me or what size I'm supposed to be cutting. It's a 22k file. The last update was a 377k file. The pixel size does not matter—it's an SVG. It's not a drawing, but a series of coordinate points, instructions, words, and formatting for the words. What do you propose I cut? --Akhenaten0 (talk) 22:21, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

What I'm tempted to do (and have been for some time) is to abbreviate "Orthodox" to "Orth." and "Church" to "Ch." where names are long. --Akhenaten0 (talk) 22:22, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

What I mean is that your file's dimension is 8,192 × 5,345, which is too big to the point that I cannot get a full view of the whole schematic once I click on the SVG (see my previous screenshotfor an illustration). Veverve (talk) 22:28, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Map for the current Eastern Orthodox schism

I will post some of my suggestions for this map here. If do not want me to, then tell me and I will stop.
To illustrate the Russian Orthodox Church has broken the communion with a primate, I suggest something like this; to show the ROC has broken the communion with a church, I would use something like this.
Sources: File:Jan Anton van der Baren - Eucharist in a Garland.jpg, File:PriestOrthodox.svg, File:Orthodox church pictogram.svg
Veverve (talk) 21:27, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

I greatly appreciate your help! However, I’m opposed to too many different icons floating around. I’ll work on something and get back to you. --Akhenaten0 (talk)

Maybe this article, which divides the autocephalous churches into three categories, can be of any help. Moreover, the ROC, the Serbian Orthodox Church and the Polish Orthodox Church categorically stated the OCU had no apostolic succession (i.e. that its clergy was only some laymen without any ordination nor grace) (source: w:Orthodox Church of Ukraine). Veverve (talk) 00:42, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Also, maybe this article can be of any help to you: w:Reactions of the Eastern Orthodox churches to the 2018 Moscow–Constantinople schism Veverve (talk) 00:43, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Schisms from within the Eastern Orthodox Church

File:SaintThomasChristian'sDivisionsHistoryFinal.png is the model.
I propose to start by the direct "ancestors" of the current churches then to make the branches which came out of it (e.g. the Kiev Patriarchate split from the ROC) as well as the preceding entities (e.g. the autocephaly of Bulgaria and Serbia was abolished many times).
15th century:
From the Ecumenical Patriarchate: w:15th–16th century Moscow–Constantinople schism: the Metropolis of Kiev and all Rus' became the Moscow Patriarchate. Please read the article for more details.
19th century:
From the Ecumenical Patriarchate: w:Tomos dated June 29, 1850: autocephaly unilateraly declared in 1830, Church of Greece recognized in 1850
From the Ecumenical Patriarchate: w:Bulgarian_Exarchate#Bulgarian schism: autocephaly unilateraly declared in 1872, Bulgarian Orthodox Church recognized in 1945
From the Ecumenical Patriarchate: w:Romanian Orthodox Church: autocephaly unilateraly declared in 1865, recognition in 1885.
20th century:
From the Ecumenical Patriarchate: w:Orthodox Church of Albania, w:Orthodox Congress (Albania): autocephaly unilateraly declared in 1922, recognition in 1937.
From the ROC: w:Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church and w:Ukrainian Orthodox Church – Kiev Patriarchate: the UAOC: autocephaly unilateraly declared in 1921 (first), 1942 (second), and 1990 (third); the UOC-KP: autocephaly unilateraly declared in 1992. Both united into the w:Orthodox Church of Ukraine on 15 December 2018. The OCU was immediatly recognized by the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
Veverve (talk) 02:18, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

The legend would use three colours:

1) Wanted to become autocephalous

2) Disagreement

3) Left due to perceived heresy of the Mother Church (generic) (ROCOR)

4) w:True Orthodoxy

5) Left the E. Orthodox Church (the Ecum. Patr. joined the Catholic Church in the 15th century, the w:Union of Brest, the Living Church movements, the Ukrainian Reformed Orthodox Church)

Veverve (talk) 14:00, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Russian Orthodox Church

Here is a rough draft for the ROC. Most information are from OrthodoxWiki. Veverve (talk) 16:16, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
@Akhenaten0: I am now done. Do you still plan to turn this into a schematic using your talents of graphic designer? Veverve (talk) 21:52, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Yes, sorry. Just have been busy. --Akhenaten0 (talk) 14:21, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Are you still willing? Veverve (talk) 02:51, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Since I have had no response from you for more than a year, I asked someone else to do it. You can see the result here. Veverve (talk) 22:18, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Fantastic, fantastic! Great job. Sorry for my distraction. My edits all over have dried up in the past year. --Akhenaten0 (talk) 23:53, 16 February 2021 (UTC)