Template talk:MetaCat

Size of this box

I suggest this box be shortened from top to bottom. All the text could be in one paragraph instead of two. The languages could be put in a collapsed section. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:35, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

The box has been shortened. See Template talk:MetaCat/en. --Timeshifter (talk) 08:48, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Documentation and better method

Please see this discussion:

• Category talk:Non-empty meta categories#What is the correct way to put a meta category into this category?

--Timeshifter (talk) 22:34, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Version of summer 2010

Parameter "flat=yes" not documented. Causes self categorisation. --Foroa (talk) 17:27, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

It's logical in this case. A category meant to contain all "by xxx" should contain itself if it is also a "by xxx" category. It's not documented (yet) on purpose. Rocket000 (talk) 19:14, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion

Suggestion: Include {{CatAZ}} when more than 200 items in category (and potentially {{LargeCategoryTOC}} when more than 5000 items). --Foroa (talk) 15:38, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Good idea, but two issues I see with that: 1) Some of these already have a TOC template, so this would duplicate it. 2) TOCs should preferably be directly above the category list; if there's any description or navigation template (like one of these) or anything else, it should be below that I think. Rocket000 (talk) 01:14, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Not a real problem I guess, most cats with navigation are well organised and compact. I prefer to have them on a sub-optimal place than having to insert them manually and see them popping up where they are not needed at all. --Foroa (talk) 06:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Sortkey

Is there a way to change the sortkey? As a sample on Category:Self-portraits, the subcategory Category:Self-portraits by country appears as the first one despite probably being the last criterion to use.  Docu  at 11:08, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

It is a good idea to have all of the tens of thousands meta-categories always located at the top left part of the parent category list. So even when the cat is too populated, they are always visible on the first page. It is not a good idea to have meta categories undersnowed in long subcategory lists. --Foroa (talk) 12:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it's that helpful to create a meta-cat for every type of subcategory, just to make it easier to sort them.  Docu  at 16:52, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

This is only done if {{by country category|parent category}} is used and is done for backwards compatibility. {{metacat|country}}, which should eventually replace {{By country category}}, does not add a parent topical category (only parent meta categories) and thus does not add a sortkey. If you convert it like so, then you can change the sortkey. The reasons for having {{metacat}} not categorize into a topical category is explained on Template:By country category. However, I agree that "by xxx" categories should have consistent locations in their topic categories. Rocket000 (talk) 18:46, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Autocategorization

I think this template could be made more useful by generalizing its autocategorization function. Currently it autocategorizes all categories tagged by this template into a common metacategory Category:Meta categories and into some other flat metacategories depending on the sorting criterion Category:Categories by CRITERION (flat list). However, it could have an extended functionality if, additionally, it autocategorizes into metacategories depending not only on the sorting criterion but also on the topics (template parameters named topic, topic2 and topic3). Thus, categories of the form Category:TOPIC in TOPIC2 by CRITERION could be autocategorized into the metacategory (if existing) Category:Categories of TOPIC2 by CRITERION|TOPIC. For example, Category:Agriculture in the United States by state could be autocategorized into the metacategory Category:Categories of the United States by state. --Albert Villanova del Moral (talk) 10:02, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Definition of a metacat?

What is a metacat? Is it:

1. A category that can only contain other categories, not media directly.
2. A category that can only contain other categories, not media directly, and where those sub-categories are related by a single differentiating factor, chosen from a small list of possibilities, such as "by country" or "by year"?

Andy Dingley (talk) 09:04, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Definitely #2, except that I don't think there's a specific list they're limited to, certainly not a small one. Commons:List of meta category criteria has a list of most of the ones that are in use, but I don't believe we're limited to those if we think of something new that's appropriate. Both that page and Commons:Naming_categories#Categories_by_CRITERION specify that metacats groups things by a specific criterion and have "by something" in the name.

There's a separate template, {{CatCat}}, that can be used for categories that should contain only other categories, but which aren't actually metacats. Categories that use that template are in Category:Categories requiring permanent diffusion to zero. I suspect {{CatCat}} is overused, though. I see it sometimes on categories where it would be nice if everything were in subcategories, but there's no good enough reason that they have to be (IMO).

Make sense? --Auntof6 (talk) 09:46, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

When you're auto-removing {{Metacat}} (under #2), how about instead replacing it with {{CatCat}} ? Andy Dingley (talk) 18:27, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Using mbox instead of cmbox

Template {{Cmbox}} seems to be deprecated. Please replace it by {{Mbox}}.

Thanks in advance. --abián 18:28, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Metacats that don't include a criterion parameter

Fairly often, I see categories that use this template without specifying a criterion parameter. I think it would be useful to add those categories into a tracking category. That way, we could find them and add a parameter. I believe this could be done by adding a "then" condition to the "{{#if:{{{1|}}}" statement in this template, and creating the new category. Perhaps the new category could be called something like "Metacategories missing a criterion parameter". Thoughts? I will mention this discussion at the village pump. --Auntof6 (talk) 17:40, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Sounds like a great idea. It would be useful to have the special category. Would they also stay in Category:Meta categories ? - Themightyquill (talk) 05:41, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

I think they should stay in that cat as well, because they're still metacats. --Auntof6 (talk) 06:54, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

In case this is approved, I've tested a change that would accomplish this. It's in Template:MetaCat/sandbox. I used a different category name than suggested above, but the category name can easily be changed. --Auntof6 (talk) 05:15, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

{{Editprotected}} Since there have been no objections, would an admin be willing to make this change? I did publicize it at the village pump. --Auntof6 (talk) 20:25, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

@Auntof6: How can there be meta cats w/o criterion? Parameter #1 is required. Strange.... Let's give it a try. : Changes made, your turn --Hedwig in Washington ^(mail?) 22:10, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, Hedwig. I defined the category and cleared everything that was in it (not as much as I expected). I'm watching the category, so I should see if anything else appears in it. Later I'll update the template doc with info about the change. --Auntof6 (talk) 00:10, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Thx for cleaning up! --Hedwig in Washington ^(mail?) 00:12, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Proposal: Track metacategories that aren't sorted into flat categories

I believe we have a lot of metacategories that don't get sorted into flat categories by the logic in Template:ByCat. I propose creating a category to hold those metacategories. That would let us look at them and decide if we want to add them to ByCat, either to existing options or as new options. A possible name for the new category could be Category:Metacategories not sorted into flat categories. We could use this category to look for the following:

• Metacategories where the metacat criterion was misspelled.
• Metacategories that use a variation of something the {{ByCat}} already sorts, so that we could add the variations. For example, Category:Categories by year (flat list) is assigned to metacategories that use a sort criterion of any of the following: year, construction year, planting year, year of closure, year of completion, year of destruction, year of disestablishment, year of establishment, year of photographing, year of photography, year of registration. If there was a metacategory that specified "year of announcement", that metacategory wouldn't be sorted into a flat category.
• Metacategories that use a less closely-related criterion that could be added to an existing one. For example, we have some "by league" categories that could be added to Category:Categories by organization (flat list).
• Metacategories that use sort criteria unrelated to any that {{ByCat}} currently sorts. I don't think we should necessarily include all criteria in flat categories, but I'm sure there are a lot that we would want to include.

I made and tested a change to Template:MetaCat that would do what I have in mind. The change is in Template:MetaCat/sandbox.

Your thoughts? --Auntof6 (talk) 03:42, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

This sounds like a good idea and there should be no harm in testing it out. Josh (talk) 15:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Meta category link

Currently, the banner as displayed has a link to an inactive policy proposal that was never adopted (Commons:Naming categories#Categories by CRITERION). Worse, one has to scroll up to the top to see that it is not an actual policy or guideline page, so the casual user wanting to know what a meta category is, or what it means in the scope of Commons categorization. I expected to get the official word on meta categories by clicking on that link, so was disappointed to find it linked to unreliable information. We should either link it to an actual adopted policy or guideline on the matter, or barring that, disable the link until such a policy or guideline is adopted by the community (maybe that is as easy as taking the current text and getting buy in for that section to become its own thing at Commons:Meta categories?). (@Auntof6: , you have a good sense on metacats, so perhaps you have input?) Josh (talk) 16:43, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

@Joshbaumgartner: Good catch. It would be good to have something official because this can be contentious. It would help to include information on the following:

• What a metacat is and is not
• Categories that look like metacats, or at least their names do, but which aren't actually metacats
• Naming metacats

I have more thoughts, but they would be best brought up if we actually work toward something official. Unless someone wants to know anyway. -- Auntof6 (talk) 01:20, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

@Auntof6, that would be great. Honestly, yours is the first name that comes to mind when I'm thinking about the topic. I have started a very skeletal starting point at Commons:Meta categories to start developing an official guide to them. Do you think the section on the inactive page would be a useful to copy over as a starting point, or is it misleading in your opinion and therefore better that we start from a blank slate? Josh (talk) 17:56, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

@Joshbaumgartner: That's a good framework for it. Commons:List of meta category criteria has some good info, too, under "Inclusion rules", although I don't think the list there is really needed, or even kept up to date.

I think it would be good to be pretty specific about certain kinds of categories that are often seen as metacats but which either 1) never are or 2) sometimes are and sometimes not. That would include categories by name (sometimes), serial number, registration number, and probably others I'm not thinking of at the moment. I know I've explained that to people quite a few times over the years; some people get it, some don't.

I've often thought it would be less confusing to name metacats differently -- something like "Rivers grouped by country" instead of "Rivers by country" -- but that would be a huge change and would probably never be accepted.

So how else can I help? -- Auntof6 (talk) 03:14, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

@Auntof6 Do you have any examples in mind of categories which folks treated as meta categories, but which were actually not? I'd like to identify what the elements are that are fooling people (like me) into that presumption--maybe there are a couple of different things that cause this? Josh (talk) 15:38, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

@Joshbaumgartner: That depends on what you mean by "treated as". Just the word "by" in a category name sometimes makes people think it must be a metacat, so they put a metacat template on it. I can't think of a specific category offhand, but I'll look through my edit history to see if I can find some that I changed from metacat to catcat. -- Auntof6 (talk) 00:22, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I know there were at least a couple in the past where you had corrected me when I mistakenly put a metacat template where it didn't belong, but that was a while back and so buried, I couldn't dig one up yet. I'll give it another shot. Josh (talk) 01:19, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

@Joshbaumgartner: I found a few:

• This one on Category:Books about Michigan by title. "By title" is one of the things that have the same issues as "by name".
• This one on Category:Artemis Accords signing ceremonies. The current content of the category would justify it being a by-country metacat, but the category name doesn't specify "by country". Without that qualifier, the category could contain general things about the ceremonies. Sometimes I've tried to explain to people that the name of a metacat needs to indicate a sort criterion.
• This one on Category:Streets in Split by name. Sometimes with by name/title/etc. I try to get people to look at it this way: if there is a one-to-one correspondence between the two parts of the category name (in this case, street and name), then it is not a metacat because metacats are intended to group multiple things that share some characteristic. For example, any given street will have only one name (although I suppose there might be a few exceptions), Category:Streets in Split by name is not a metacat.
• This one on Category:Writers from Ternopil Oblast by name.

To add a little more about the streets category: "by name" is one of the things that sometimes indicates a metacat and sometimes doesn't. The examples I listed above are not metacats. Category:Hotels by name is a metacat, because the subcats there group different hotels with the same name. -- Auntof6 (talk) 00:09, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@Auntof6 I have used your examples to flesh out a bit at Commons:Meta categories. Let me know if I misinterpreted anything or need to explain it differently. Thanks, Josh (talk) 11:59, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

@Joshbaumgartner: Good job! I made one small copy edit, and I bolded some of the category names in one of the tables to highlight the categories that were being mentioned.

Under "If it were a meta category", would it help to list hypothetical examples? For example:

Category:Books about Michigan by title

Category:Books about Michigan titled Guide to Michigan

Category:Guide to Michigan by Nelson Adams

Category:Guide to Michigan by Amy Schmidt

and similarly for the other redlinked categories.

Under "List categories by name/title/etc.", I think it should be mentioned that there are some "by name" categories that are metacats. (I don't know if there are any "by title" categories that are metacats, or metacats by the other types of things that are relevant in this section.) My go-to example of this is Category:Hotels by name, but there could well be more. I thought that Category:Ships by name was one, but it isn't; however, a subcat there is: Category:Ships with the same name. (That's the only category with "with the same name" in its title.) I just mention it because it's an interesting anomaly. Auntof6 (talk) 23:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Self-categorizing

Category:Organizations of San Marino is on Commons:Database reports/Self-categorized categories.
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 04:59, 12 October 2024 (UTC)