Talk:Atlas of Palestine

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Flags

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I posted a note at w:Wikipedia:Notice board for Palestine-related topics. See the July 6, 2007 entry. Direct link is:

People can discuss things also at w:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Palestine.

I believe there should be more than one flag shown than just the Palestinian National Authority flag. The Hamas flag should be shown also. Or better yet no flags since it is disputed territory. There is also some deletion concerning info and a link to Hamas, See this diff. I am trying to bring the first paragraph up to date. --Timeshifter 18:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The PNA flag is the standard symbol in regards to Palestine, used worldwide. It would be very easy to show this in Google Scholar or any other searches and regular usage. Being that this is an Atlas, it is not necessary to denote control of Gaza - the notation about the PNA is merely to point out that PNA maps can (and are) included in the Atlas. It is not a political denotation, as you are attempting. With the flags - the Hamas is an entity of Palestine, but the flag is not standard. Rarelibra 18:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You are very misinformed. I am a longtime member of w:Wikipedia:WikiProject Palestine and w:Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel and w:Wikipedia:WikiProject Arab-Israeli conflict. The PNA is a political organization. I updated the info in the first paragraph to show that there are more political bodies than the PNA. The first paragraph was using old info implying that the PNA continues to control Gaza. It does not. Either remove all political organization info, and their flags, or make it up to date. --Timeshifter 18:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The first paragraph does not denote PNA controlling Gaza - it is not about control. The first paragraph says "Palestine is a name of a historical and geographical region, nowadays divided between Israel, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. The Palestinian National Authority (PNA) has control over part of the West Bank and maps of PNA are included in this entry. Gaza borders Israel and Egypt, the West Bank borders Israel and Jordan." WHERE exactly does it say that PNA controls Gaza? It says "PNA has control over part of the West Bank and maps of PNA are included in this entry." If you have maps of Hamas, then you can denote "Hamas has control over Gaza and maps of Hamas are included in this entry" or something along those lines. As far as the flag - a very quick search of Google or Yahoo images of "flag of palestine" will bring up the flag currently displayed:

The list goes on and on and on. In fact, a search on Google Scholar brings up 46,000 hits on the image search of "Flag of Palestine", the majority of which show the PNA flag denoted on this article - a standard symbol of Palestine, generally used throughout the world. Rarelibra 19:05, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you only knew how many naming discussions we have had at the projects I mentioned, and the innumerable times we have cussed and discussed Google searches....
The Atlas is for Palestine. Historical Palestine included Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip. The Palestinian Territories includes the Gaza Strip. So a PNA flag implies control of the Gaza Strip also. It does not need to be explicitly said. That is why it is better not to use any flags, and to avoid some of the unnecessary political arguments. They are covered in much more detail in the main articles anyway. So I agree with User:Juiced_lemon that there should be no flag shown. Anyway, the PNA did not exist throughout the history of the Palestinian territories. And this is an historical atlas too. --Timeshifter 19:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A PNA flag does not imply control of the Gaza Strip. Using the flag is using a standard, worldwide symbol of Palestine used by many entities - political, scholastic, historic, and otherwise. The flag of Palestine is symbolically the PNA flag. There is no political slant here, nothing more. I don't like Wiki policies about popularity as well, but the google search proves the point. As for your proposed notation of Hamas control of the Gaza Strip - it is incomplete with denoting the inclusion of Hamas maps (which there are none that I know of) - therefore, if you add Hamas maps, you can add the notation - complete, not just the 'control' part. This is not political, it is an Atlas. Furthermore, I don't even wish to discuss the usage of the word or description of "Palestine" and its historical context and concept... because we would be here all day and all night and the only thing that would come of it would be misguided, biased, unopen approaches based on limited knowledge and extrapolated theory. Rarelibra 19:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
See w:Hamas. Note both the flag and the symbol for Hamas. The flag is farther down. The Atlas of Palestine currently says: "Status. Territory with special status, partially under control of the PNA. Some Palestinians also claim the territory of Israel".
I also have no desire to change the name of the Atlas, or enter into naming discussions concerning Palestine, etc.. My point is strictly about the PNA. It does not matter that some people associate the PNA with Palestine. That is not a full picture, and you know it. It is a lot easier just to remove the flags. There is no country called the West Bank or Gaza. They are disputed territories. We can link to PNA and Hamas if you want. That is a lot easier. That allows people to get the full picture. --Timeshifter 19:33, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree to possibly rewording the status section to something like "Territory with special status, under control of several entities, including the PNA and Hamas. Some Palestinians also claim the territory of Israel". What do you think? As far as the flag - I'm afraid that the "flag of Palestine" default - most used worldwide - is the PNA flag. If there is a happy medium of including the Hamas flag as well - or something to that effect - but it isn't right to not include a flag. Rarelibra 19:45, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds OK. How does one add the Hamas flag? I can't figure it out in the Atlas code. Here is the Hamas flag: Image:Hamas flag2.png. --Timeshifter 21:00, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We will have to consult Electionworld. I'm sure he's following the thread. Rarelibra 21:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I would favor the PNA flag as it is the flag of the entity recognized by many - mainly - Arabic countries, a flag used since long time used by Palestinian entities. I didn't hear that Hamas doesn't consider this as the Palestinian flag. See FOTW: The Palestinian flag represents all Palestinian Arab aspirations regardless of party. It belongs to the Arab Revolt grouping of Arab flags and is a deliberate copy of the Jordanian flag (minus the star), which presumably represents the historical link to 1920-23 when Palestine and Transjordan were one territory. I think the flag was adopted in 1964 at the creation of the PNC and PLO, possibly a little later. It was definitely in use by 1974 when the Arab League declared the PLO the sole representative of all Palestinians and the UN granted the PLO observer status. There was no single Palestinian authority prior to 1964 that could have created a flag. [1] Electionworld (Talk? -Atlas) 22:05, 19 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be some controversy about the flag. Please see:
Jan. 15, 2007 article: "Hamas and Fatah feud over flag and blasphemy."
On the other hand, ...
"Arab League calls for Palestinian unity". Quote from this June 16, 2007 article:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/06/15/gaza.fighting/index.html
He said Hamas will work with Fatah and declared, "Hamas does not want to take control of power." He said his followers should not put Hamas flags on government buildings, noting, "Those places are not ours; only put them on our institutions, along with the Palestinian flag."
So I guess we can keep the current flag unless Hamas declares otherwise. I just don't want wikipedia endorsing flags and sides. Since the text has been updated the main problem has been solved.
OK, I now see the root of the confusion. The PLO and the PNA endorsed the flag and adopted it. But the flag existed before either of them. Another quote below from this page you linked to:
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ps.html
From the PASSIA (Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of International Affairs) home page:
Sharif Hussein designed the current flag as the flag of the Arab Revolt on June 1916. The Palestinian people raised it as the flag of the Arab National movement in 1917. In 1947, the Arab Ba'ath Party interpreted the flag as a symbol of the liberation and unity of the Arab nation. The Palestinian people readopted the flag at the Palestinian conference in Gaza in 1948. The flag was recognized by the Arab League as the flag of the Palestinian people. It was further endorsed by the PLO, the representative of the Palestinians, at the Palestinian conference in Jerusalem in 1964.
So, as the quote says, the flag was "endorsed" by the various parties. So the flag is not owned by any particular political party. I will change the caption under the flag from "Flag of the Palestine National Authority" to just "The Palestinian flag". --Timeshifter 14:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good call. And thank you for going the distance and doing the research on this. Rarelibra 15:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Atlas of Palestine and Palestinian territories

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[Later note. I copied this from User talk:Juiced lemon. --Timeshifter 20:04, 15 August 2007 (UTC) ][reply]

Why did you remove the flag? See this diff of your removal of it.

There was a long discussion and consensus was reached. See Talk:Atlas of Palestine.

Also, why did you remove the population, language, surface area, etc.?

And why did you mark it as only "historic territory"? The Atlas says that it covers both historic Palestine and the current Palestinian territories.

Are you going back to your old habits of mass reversions and deletions without discussion? --Timeshifter 02:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't removed any flag. According to the English Wikipedia, Palestine is an historic territory. Association between this historic territory and the Palestinian territories is manifest propaganda: I don't care what the Atlas claims, since the Atlas is out of scope of the Commons project, and cannot be a reference about Encyclopedic issues.
Think that your insistence to add non-neutral informations to galleries could challenge the whole Atlas. In Commons, we don't need to worry about issues which are not useful to find media files. --Juiced lemon 10:08, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK. I see that your last edit removed the flag caption and reference. Not the flag itself. But why would you keep the flag, but not the flag reference and caption?
You linked to the article, Palestine, but I don't think you read it very well. Quote from it:
"In recent times, the broadest definition of Palestine has been that adopted by the British Mandate, and the narrowest is that used in contemporary politics today, called the Palestinian territories, which are the West Bank and Gaza Strip."
And why do you assume I wrote all the info you deleted? You make many assumptions, and therefore you make many mistakes.
And what non-neutral info do you think that I added to the Atlas? --Timeshifter 11:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
YOU didn't read Palestine very well: Different geographic definitions of Palestine have been used over the millennia, and these definitions themselves are politically contentious.
I think it's enough clear for everybody, except for those guys which are here only for propaganda concerns. The term “Palestine” is incorrect to name any current political entity. So, conform to the names used by the English Wikipedia for the different subjects: Palestinian territories and Palestine are not interchangeable names. --Juiced lemon 12:08, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is an atlas of both historic Palestine and the Palestinian territories. What do you suggest naming the Atlas? And you didn't answer my other questions.
Why did you do another blind reversion without discussion? You just tag-teamed someone else's mass deletion. That person also did not explain anything. Why are you going back to past habits that got you in so much trouble? --Timeshifter 19:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) I have been bold and changed the name to Atlas of Palestine and Palestinian territories. Others have also complained about the name, Atlas of Palestine. I think this may be a more acceptable name. Of course for some people even "Palestinian territories" is problematic. But the mainstream media today use it just to indicate the combination of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. They do not apply any political meaning to the name to indicate any future status concerning settlements, East Jerusalem, etc.

Click the Google search shortcut links below to see where and how the phrase "the Palestinian territories" is used on CNN and BBC pages:

Here are some wikipedia pages which provide more info: w:Definitions of Palestine and Palestinian. w:Palestinian territories. w:Palestine. --Timeshifter 20:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I, for one, do not agree with this name change - it sounds silly and pretentious. Also, you did not consult anyone here that works with the Atlas on a regular basis, nor did you call for any vote on the matter (and you had to have known that it would be a controversial topic). I say we need to change the name back and go from there. "Palestine" covers any and all about the territory, ancient and modern. Rarelibra 21:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was practicing w:Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. It does not matter much to me either way what it is called. I can see both points of view. I was just trying to move things along, because people come here off and on making the same reversions and complaints. The name change may at least keep us from wasting further time on it.
We may finally have come to some sort of agreement on wikipedia about when and where to use the terms "Palestine" and "Palestinian territories." --Timeshifter 22:46, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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