File:Kis-vlachföldek.png

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Captions

Captions

Map of Hungary in the late 13th century, background from [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hungary_13th_cent.png] added with the Vlachs communities under Vlach Jog attested by Mihályi János : ''Magyar diplomák a XIII és XIV századbol''.
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The factual accuracy of this map or the file name is disputed.
Reason: Created by [1] May 7, 2019
There are two theories, which have which each have academic sources, arguments, historical works in support:
  • A first thesis, supported by books like Rumen Daskalov, Alexander Vezenkov, Entangled Histories of the Balkans - Shared Pasts, Disputed Legacies) Vol. III in Balkan Studies Library, Brill 2015, ISBN 9004290362, or Alexandru Avram, Mircea Babeş, Lucian Badea, Mircea Petrescu-Dîmboviţa and Alexandru Vulpe (dir.), Istoria românilor: moştenirea timpurilor îndepărtate ("History of the Romanians: the heritage of ancient times") vol.1, ed. Enciclopedică, Bucharest 2001, or History of Romania, Romanian Cultural Institute (Center for Transylvanian Studies) 2005, pp. 59–132, ISBN 978-973-7784-12-4, asserts that the Eastern Romance populations could not disappear for a thousand years, were not prevented from crossing the Carpathians, the Danube and the Balkans like the Goths, Avars, Slavs or Magyars, continued their transhumant pastoral travels between the north and the south of the Danube from the end of the 3-th century to the beginning of the 14-th century and thereafter and had, like the Cumans, the Iasses, the Szeklers and the Saxons, their autonomy as an “Universitas Valachorum“.
  • A second thesis, supported by books like Eduard Robert Rössler, Romänische Studien: untersuchungen zur älteren Geschichte Rumäniens ("New Studies: Investigations into the Ancient History of Romania"), Leipzig, 1871 or Béla Köpeczi (dir.), Erdély rövid története ("Abridged History of Transylvania"), Akadémiai Kiadó, Budapest 1989, ISBN 9630559013, asserts that the Romance populations disappeared north of the Danube in the 3-th century and did not reappear until the 13-th century at the earliest: the Magyars were therefore the first people in Transylvania; the “Universitas Valachorum“ never existed; the “vlach jog“ was just a tax exemption for the Magyar landlords using vlach forestal or agricultural workers; these Vlachs are, with the Roma people, the only population in Hungary without rights and autonomy, and the sources which mentioned other points of views (as the Nestor monk russian chronicle) are “irrelevant“.

The second theory, spread by Austro-Hungarian and Hungarian historiography, is very present on Commons' maps, among others by this version

[2]. On my side, I did not create the version here on May 7, 2019 to add one more map into line with the Austro-Hungarian theory, but to show also the first theory, much less represented, according to which, there is a link between the Romanization of the populations of the Lower Danube in antiquity, and the existence of current Eastern Romance languages. It was therefore not essential to modify my version to align it with the second theory.
Il all cases, Wikipedian contributors do not have to decide between these theories, but to present them both. Regardless, even if the arguments for both theses were worthless, insufficient evidence proves neither the absence nor the presence of a population.
The banates and voivodates of eastern Hungary were populated by Vlachs and southern Slavs, as evidenced by the toponymy (see Ion Barnea and Ștefan Ștefănescu, Byzantines, Romanians and Bulgarians on the Lower Danube, flight. 3, coll. “Bibliotheca historica Romaniae / studies” n° 9, Academia Română, Bucharest 1971, 439 p., OCLC 1113905), but since the fall of communism in 1990, Hungarian historiography affirms that an initially uniform Magyar population first populated the entire middle Danube basin before being gradually "submerged" at from the 13th century by the “massive arrival of non-native immigrants” (Slavs or Vlachs) who would have been first settled in the “banats” before invading the rest of Hungary, except the middle and sthe szekler lands. Many Hungarian authors and cartographers of the 21st century consider any other thesis to be “false” and “invented”.
The insistence of the Magyar contributors to remove the maps or mentions which show the first thesis as “fake, personal opinions or falsified“, is issued from the nostalgia for “Greater Hungary” tragically dismembered in 1920 (by the Allies and in particular the will of the french leader Georges Clémenceau and of the american president Woodrow Wilson with his “14 points"), and also in the illusion that if they managed to demonstrate that the Magyars arrived there before the Romanians, this could delegitimize Romanian sovereignty over Transylvania and give Hungary a chance to recover this region.
These ideas are not specific about Romanians: there are contributors who think that Italians did not exist before the “Risorgimento” since it was the latter which created the consciousness of being Italian, and that they therefore have no history before 1870. This is why, wherever they can, the Magyar contributors remove any historical map which is not according with their point of view.
These controversies and this mutual denigration prove Winston Churchill right when he said: “The Balkan region has tendency to produce more history than it can consume.”.

Summary

[edit]
Description
English: Map of Hungary at the end of the 13th century, based on the other version but showing also the Oláh (Vlach) areas under Vlach Jog in versions not aligned with the current Hungarian point of view.
Français : Carte de la Hongrie à la fin du XIIIe siècle, basée sur l'autre version mais figurant aussi, dans les versions non-alignées sur le point de vue hongrois, les zones roumanophones sous Vlach Jog ("droit valaque").
Date
Source

May 20, 2022, february 16 and june 8, 2024 hungarian versions (according to hungarian contributors, only this sources are serious, academic and reliable): Béla Köpeczi (dir.), Erdély rövid története ("Abridged History of Transylvania"), Akadémiai Kiadó, Budapest 1989, ISBN 9630559013 following Eduard Robert Rössler, Romänische Studien: untersuchungen zur älteren Geschichte Rumäniens ("New Studies: Investigations into the Ancient History of Romania"), Leipzig, 1871.
Mai 7, 2019, july 1, 2022 and february 17, 2024 versions (according to hungarian contributors, this other sources, especially the romanian ones, are false, fanciful, nationalist and irrelevant):

  • Alain Du Nay, André Du Nay et Árpád Kosztin, Transylvania and the Rumanians, Matthias Corvinus Publishing, 1997, 337 p. ISBN 978-1-882785-09-4, p. 15.
  • Olivier Gillet, «Histoire de la Transylvanie: le différend historiographique hungaro-roumain», in: Revue belge de philologie et d'histoire, 1997, tome 75, fasc. 2, p. 457–485.
  • Georges Castellan, «Quelques problèmes d'histoire entre Hongrois et Roumains», in: Melikov zbornik : Slovenci v zgodovini in njihovi srednjeevropski sosedje, Vincenc Rajšp et al., Ljubljana, Založba ZRC 2001, p. 153–162.
  • Rumen Daskalov, Alexander Vezenkov, Entangled Histories of the Balkans - Shared Pasts, Disputed Legacies, Vol. III in Balkan Studies Library, Brill 2015, ISBN 9004290362.
  • János Mihályi, Magyar diplomák a XIII és XIV századbol, Máramaros-sziget, 1900.
  • Kristian Sandfeld, Linguistique balkanique ; problèmes et résultats, Champion, Coll. linguistique de la Société linguistique de Paris, Paris, 1930.
  • Dimitri Kitsikis, La Montée du national-bolchevisme dans les Balkans, Avatar, Paris 2008.
  • Vatro Murvar, The Balkan Vlachs : a typological study, University of Wisconsin, Madison, 1956, p. 20.
  • Ilona Czamańska, "The Vlachs – several research problems" in Balcanica Posnaniensia - Acta et studia n° 22, february 2015, 1, pp. 7–16.
  • Ovid Sachelarie, Nicolae Stoicescu (dir.) Instituţii feudale din ţările române, Romanian Academy Press, Bucharest 1988; Alexandru Avram, Mircea Babeş, Lucian Badea, Mircea Petrescu-Dîmboviţa & Alexandru Vulpe (dir.) Istoria românilor : moştenirea timpurilor îndepărtate, vol.1, Editura Enciclopedică, Bucharest 2001, ISBN 973-45-0382-0.
  • Alexandru Xenopol, Une énigme historique: les Roumains au Moyen Âge, E. Leroux, Paris, 1883 & "Histoire des Roumains de la Dacie Trajane", E. Leroux, Paris, 1896.
  • Nicolae Iorga, Teodor Capidan, Constantin Giurescu : History of the Romanians, Romanian academy, multiple issues.
  • Alexandru Avram, Mircea Babeş, Lucian Badea, Mircea Petrescu-Dîmboviţa and Alexandru Vulpe (dir.), Istoria românilor: moştenirea timpurilor îndepărtate ("History of the Romanians: the heritage of ancient times") vol.1, ed. Enciclopedică, Bucharest 2001.
  • History of Romania, Romanian Cultural Institute (Center for Transylvanian Studies) 2005, pp. 59–132, ISBN 978-973-7784-12-4.
Author Julieta39, modified by OrionNimrod following the hungarian point of view (current version)
Permission
(Reusing this file)		 Own work
Other versions File:Hungary 13th cent.png, already into line with the Hungarian point of view; this version here was created to show the other point of view, in accordance with the latin expression: «Audi alteram partem»: see discussion file.

Licensing

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File history

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Date/TimeThumbnailDimensionsUserComment
current18:56, 28 July 2024Thumbnail for version as of 18:56, 28 July 20241,758 × 1,308 (1.49 MB)OrionNimrod (talk | contribs)Revert to the map which is based on academic. Stop arbitrary painting fantasy maps. Maps should follow real realiable academy maps.
11:36, 25 July 2024Thumbnail for version as of 11:36, 25 July 20241,757 × 1,307 (541 KB)Julieta39 (talk | contribs)See "Disputed map" insert
14:00, 8 June 2024Thumbnail for version as of 14:00, 8 June 20241,758 × 1,308 (1.49 MB)OrionNimrod (talk | contribs)That is the academic Hungarian source map: No Vlach borders inside Hungary, that is only a Photoshopped fantasy by Romanian nationalists, not nice to falsify maps: https://djnaploja.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/magyar-kirc3a1lysc3a1g-xiii-sz.jpg
23:04, 17 February 2024Thumbnail for version as of 23:04, 17 February 2024835 × 626 (567 KB)WajWohu (talk | contribs)Reverted to version as of 20:41, 1 July 2022 (UTC) Please discuss that revert on discussion page, where's a consensus and view scientific sources of: File:Magyarország XII-XIII század második felében.jpg (nearby the same borders)
19:57, 16 February 2024Thumbnail for version as of 19:57, 16 February 20241,758 × 1,308 (1.49 MB)OrionNimrod (talk | contribs)Restore original: Vlach law existed. but it did not have borders, what is the academic source of that borders of Vlach law? That is just Photoshopped by user
20:41, 1 July 2022Thumbnail for version as of 20:41, 1 July 2022835 × 626 (567 KB)Enlightenment1685 (talk | contribs)I restored the Romanian version
00:53, 1 July 2022Thumbnail for version as of 00:53, 1 July 20221,758 × 1,308 (1.49 MB)Enlightenment1685 (talk | contribs)I restoren the original version
13:10, 25 June 2022Thumbnail for version as of 13:10, 25 June 2022834 × 625 (455 KB)Trecătorul răcit (talk | contribs)Sorry but the nationalist hungarian pov which denies the existence of Vlach Jog is not "neutral".
00:19, 4 June 2022Thumbnail for version as of 00:19, 4 June 20221,757 × 1,307 (1.25 MB)Enlightenment1685 (talk | contribs)The original neutral version of the map.
10:31, 20 May 2022Thumbnail for version as of 10:31, 20 May 2022834 × 625 (455 KB)Trecătorul răcit (talk | contribs)Közös jog & details according with Történelmi atlasz, Akademiai kiado, Budapest 1991, ISBN 963-351-422-3
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