Commons talk:WikiProject Eurovision

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Border of Crimea on Eurovision maps

There is currently a content dispute on File:ESC 2022 Map.svg about how the borders around Crimea should be shown on the map, after the annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation. Kematen has suggested that there should be a dashed line between Crimea and mainland Ukraine. However, that was opposed by Kirilloparma, IvanScrooge98 and me. I thought I'd start a centralised discussion here, instead of edit warring over it. (There was also already a short discussion at File talk:ESC 2022 Map.svg.)

In my opinion, it would be best to not change the borders on the existing maps, and instead upload the changed borders as a new map (similar to File:ESC 2015 Map (borders as recognised by the Russian Federation).png). It would then be up to the communities of each Wikipedia language to choose which to use (since Commons does not have a neutral point of view policy like Wikipedia does). But I would be interested to hear the opinions of other editors as well. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 22:49, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I am Kematen. I don't think anyone wants to hear me anymore anyway. So I just wanted to show that the border is controversial and belongs more to Russia than Ukraine, but is controversial nonetheless. That's why I worked so hard to create the Eurovision Events Map.svg map. It was a lot of work. The "Crimean border" is dashed on this map. I would be happy if this map is adopted from ESC 2015 and stays that way in the future (until something changes in Europe). Kematen (talk) 23:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

By the way on this map File:ESC 2015 Map (borders as recognised by the Russian Federation).png is the Crimean border incorrectly drawn and is not dashed. On mine the border is correct and is dashed and I put my heart and soul into it. Kematen (talk) 23:07, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I find @Jochem van Hees' proposal very reasonable. Alternatively, or alongside this option, maps may display a striped pattern on Crimea, but I’m not sure whether this is practical. IvanScrooge98 (talk) 23:20, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@IvanScrooge98 But the ESC 2015 blablabla map is incorrectly drawn and is an .png format and mine is correctly drawn and is dashed and is .svg Kematen (talk) 23:25, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to leave it that way and simply switch to my map from 2015. So from 2015 dashed lines. Kematen (talk) 23:28, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why not update that map as well then with the dashed lines? I agree that the dashed lines are better than the solid line, since the border is disputed. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 23:36, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Because I downloaded because of that Inkscape and was proud that I managed to move the boundary line. I also knew then that it was not good, but I then inserted a dashed line anyway and hope that this map (i.e. Eurovision Events Map.svg) and the maps that have been changed by me so far (ESC 2022, ESC 2021) fit. Then I would also change all maps from the ESC 2015, because the annexation took place at that time. Kematen (talk) 09:08, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Let's stay up to date: I have created a new map with a dashed Crimean border (Eurovision Events Map.svg). The maps of ESC 2021 and ESC 2022 have already partially changed. Kematen (talk) 09:30, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kematen: you still haven't grasped that the discussion needs to come to a conclusion before you make any other edit of this kind. IvanScrooge98 (talk) 10:18, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I know. But why it is so tricky to get to an end. Everybody knows that we need a dashed line since 2015 and not a clear border. Kematen (talk) 10:24, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kematen: it is called being patient, the discussion has just been opened and users may not have seen it. (Also, make sure you indent your replies with a proper number of “:”s so that it is easier to follow the exchanges.) IvanScrooge98 (talk) 10:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So can you please speak with bigger heads of Wikipedia. I want that finally the border of Crimea is dashed and why was it always being reset? I want that it's shown that it is not 100% Ukraine and not 0% Russia. So the dashed lines. And everybody resets it. That's false what they do because it's not a clear border. It's "dashed". Why coulldn't we let it like the way i did it? It's right and the other (that everybody resetted) is false because it's not clear. It's disputed. --Kematen (talk) 17:50, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kematen: there is a thing called “consensus” here, if you make an edit and it is challenged by one or more users, consensus may change, but that normally happens after discussing. No matter how reasonable you think your edit was, you need to wait until a decision is taken and stop engaging in edit wars in the meantime. Will you please be so kind? IvanScrooge98 (talk) 18:29, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry. I just wanted some correction and I didn't know that you have to have a discussion every time you edit it. Kematen (talk) 20:04, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not every time you edit, but every time you make a controversial edit (i.e. an edit that is not agreed upon by all or most users). IvanScrooge98 (talk) 20:24, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay so Kematen, I think you need to understand that when your edit is opposed (especially if by multiple people), then they probably have a proper reason for it. And you should not think that "everybody knows" that you are right. In this case, for me the reason I opposed your edits is because the annexation of Crimea and the referendum are internationally not recognised (as explained on the Wikipedia article). Many countries that participate in ESC, and organisations like the United Nations, have condemned it. So yes it is disputed, but it is so much disputed that it is weird to show Crimea as being part of Russia on the map. (Your map shows a dashed line, yes, but looking at the colour it is still shown as part of Russia.) ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 21:16, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I've also been searching on the website of the organisers, the European Broadcasting Union, and I saw that on the about page of their website there is a map of Europe (under "Our community"). If you zoom in on that map, Crimea is shown as part of Ukraine; there is not even a dashed line. So it appears that even the ones who organise the Eurovision Song Contest do not recognise the annexation. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 21:20, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On this map the Kosovo is also not shown and we have it on our map. Kematen (talk) 07:45, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So I think we should do it. A dashed line is everytime good. It's not a 100% Ukraine and not 0% Russia. It's inbetween. Please let (my) the map with the dashed line 'cause the Kosovo is also shown and on the map of the EBU not. So... Kematen (talk) 07:50, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I did not notice that. Makes me wonder what we should do with Kosovo then (since they are are not even an EBU member). Anyway, your map is really not "in between"; as I said, because the map uses colours, you cannot really show it as being in between. Your version of the map shows Crimea as part of Russia. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 11:22, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But dashed. I know it's difficult. But if we let it, it shows Crimea as a 100% part of Ukraine. On my map it is dashed. I know it is coloured as part of Russia (but dashed line) but how should we do it then. Kematen (talk) 12:50, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As I had suggested, we may color the inside in alternating stripes, but again, we need to wait for other users to step in and leave a comment. IvanScrooge98 (talk) 13:03, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So. I made a striped Crimea. Kematen (talk) 15:19, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kematen: for the last time. Don't do anything until the question is unambiguously resolved. IvanScrooge98 (talk) 15:42, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I want to show you that I did a map with a striped Crimea. I can't show you any other way. Kematen (talk) 15:53, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You should have said that you can, no need at all for proof at the moment. IvanScrooge98 (talk) 16:09, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Or you can upload it as a new file, instead of overwriting existing content. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 17:49, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@IvanScrooge98: it does not seem like there are any more people interested in this, sadly, despite having notified several talk pages. I do not think there is any point in waiting much longer. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 17:49, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jochem van Hees: I see, but the point is that whatever decision we take it affects maps that are displayed on Wikipedia for all languages (and of course, for consistency, changes would have to be made to all of these maps, not just those of the latest and upcoming editions). I just don't want to rush it and prefer that others intervene naturally rather than out of dissatisfaction after something has been decided by three users alone. As far as I'm concerned, I repeat that I support either Ukrainian Crimea, Crimea with a dashed border but same color as Ukraine, or two-colored Crimea. IvanScrooge98 (talk) 18:12, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So what's next, Can I upload the right map yet? Kematen (talk) 18:15, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kematen: I'd say let's wait another couple days. After that, you may upload new versions of File:ESC 2014 Map.svg, File:ESC 2015 Map.svg, File:ESC 2016 Map.svg, File:ESC 2017 Map.svg, File:ESC 2018 Map.svg, File:ESC 2019 Map.svg, File:ESC 2020 Map.svg, and of course File:ESC 2021 Map.svg, File:ESC 2022 Map.svg. Link to this discussion in the edit summary. IvanScrooge98 (talk) 19:00, 13 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Disputed territories such as Crimea, Abkhazia, North Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabakh or Transnistria are not shown on the Eurovision map because it's not necessary to point them out there. They are included in the countries that they belong to. Since Crimea was annected by Russia illegally and is not seen as a Russian territory by the world, it still has to be included in Ukraine. Kosovo is an independent country for the majority of the world, so this territory is an exception. If anybody wants to include Crimea in Russia or mark this territory differently, they should do it on their private photoshop file instead of being agressive on Wikipedia. This is unnecessary and attention-seeking, it has no place here. So Hood (talk) 20:25, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not agressive. Kematen (talk) 09:45, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo is not recognised by the United Nations. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 16:35, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So should give the Kosovo away? Kematen (talk) 20:14, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kosovo is partly recognized, partly not both within Europe and in the international community, so it is disputed by definition and the map reflects it. On the other hand, the Russian annexation of Crimea is only supported by a handful of political entities compared to those condemning it. Different situations that I don't believe can be treated alike. IvanScrooge98 (talk) 21:19, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What I mean is, there is much wider disproportion between the two sides in the case of Crimea. IvanScrooge98 (talk) 21:22, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Images of the 1964 Eurovision Song Contest

I collected a bunch of urls with 214 1964 ESC images by DR via this site: [1] I believe all these images are PD, as they are created in Denmark before 1970. Maybe someone is interested in bulk uploading them? I don't have the time to do it myself.

Commons talk:WikiProject Eurovision

Border of Crimea on Eurovision maps

Images of the 1964 Eurovision Song Contest

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