Commons:Deletion requests/Waffen-SS Sinimäed

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Waffen-SS Sinimäed

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Delete pr 'Was uploaded with the intent to be used solely for personal attacks' - the image naming conventions represent defamation. There are a number of living people portrayed in a public place who get labeled with Waffen-SS due to the naming conventions of the images. I have notified the uploader about the problem on August 17,[1] ...however, as we're dealing with a disruptive editor on Wikipedia who has been banned several times, please see W:User:Petri Krohn, and W:Wikipedia:DIGWUREN#Petri_Krohn, no results have followed really since his agenda on wikipedia has always been portraying Estonia/Estonians as a Fascist country and his image naming choices in this case fit the pattern. Termer (talk) 02:34, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Q: Wouldn't merely renaming the photos to something like "Sinimaed Commemoration XX.jpg" and modifying the descriptions to be more neutral be a more suitable solution? The photos themselves seem neutral in that to my casual eye there's no glaring examples of any SS related imagery. Indeed, if I'm not mistaken, in #140 you can see some veterans in uniforms more resembling the Soviet style than the WW2 German style. As you said, the problem is the interpretation caused by the names and description - rename and redo. Tabercil (talk) 03:51, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm with Tabercil here: retitle appropriately and keep. Should be handled quickly because of libel potential. - Jmabel ! talk 04:59, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A:RE:Tabercil renaming the photos was my original suggestion to the uploader about 2 weeks ago. Please see the diff also posted above [2]. However as the uploader as seen below has no intention to comply, Listing the images for deletion was my only option. Otherwise "retitle appropriately and keep" to for example "Sinimaed Commemoration XX.jpg" would be fine by me...and hopefully it would also be fine by the people on the pictures.--Termer (talk) 03:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - (as creator) - No need to delete or rename. In Estonia Waffen-SS veterans are celebrated war heroes. There in nothing shameful in being associated with the Waffen-SS, so please do not try to impose your American norms on Estonian content :-)
This is not one of those gatherings where veterans from both sides converge to remember the horrors of war. This is a victory celebration for Waffen-SS veterans only, as clearly established by multiple reliable and independent sources. Soviet veterans of WW II or their sympathizer were definitely excluded from this event. This exclusion was enforced by a massive police and security presence.
This gathering was not simply held in remembrance of the events 65 years ago, but specifically to celebrate the Waffen-SS and Nazi victory in the battle of the Tannenberg line. The battle as well as the preceding battle of Narva were a definite German victory over the Soviets. The "reoccupation" of Estonia only happened after the front collapsed further south and Germans were forced to retreat to avoid encirclement. According to the point of view of the organizers, as clearly expressed in the speeches and multiple other sources, the Waffen-SS in Narva and on the Sinimäed hills successfully defended Estonian independence as well as democracy and freedom in all of Europe.
As to the Nazi symbolism; do not expect to see the swastika. What you see is symbols of the Estonian Waffen-SS legion and other Waffen-SS legions. For example in File:Waffen-SS Sinimäe 2009 - 120.JPG of the organizers in white shirts, the right hand collar of the shirt is embroiled with the collar decorations of Estonian Waffen-SS legion. The "Soviet" style uniforms are not Soviet, but Lithuanian.
Criticism has also been pointed at individual photographs. However this set of photos should be seen as one work, a photo essay. Similar collections/essays on this event have been presented on-line by multiple Estonian newspapers. There is thus definitely a need for free content on this event.
In the general context this deletion request reflects Estonian double standards in communication. On truth is presented for domestic consumption while another truth is presented to Estonia's western allies in the EU and NATO. My crime from the Estonian point of view is presenting Estonian domestic values to the global audience. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can you point to English language sources that specifically states that this was to celebrate the Waffen SS victory? Also, you pointed to a shirt collar in 120 that is the Estonian Waffen-SS logo (which is a little too small to clearly identify) - can you point out the specific images in the other photos?
Lastly, this is a general statement to all interested parties: let's keep it civil and polite. As Termer points out, there has been already been one ArbCom case on this topic, let's not bring the fight here, shall we? Tabercil (talk) 13:34, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It is taking me some time to find the photo essays published by Estonian newspapers on the celebration. Here is one from Postimees for starters: Galerii: Sinimägedes tähistati 1944. aasta kaitselahingute aastapäeva (translation). I will return soon with more references. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
After going through a hundred pages that all say the same thing, I came across this: the original invitation to the event. It is posted on the official web site of Vaivara vald (Vaivara Parish) where the Sinimäed hills are located.
The name of the event is “20. Eesti Relvagrenaderide Diviisi veteranide kokkutulek”– translated as reunion of the veterans of the 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian). The communal site also posts a copy of the poster.
The organizers of the event, as stated in the poster and other reliable sources, are Eesti Relvagrenaderide Veteranide Ühendus and Eesti Leegioni Sõprade Klubi (Friends of the Estonian Legion) http://www.eestileegion.com/
The same information is confirmed by Estonian newspapers reporting on the event. For example Eesti Päevaleht on 27 July 2009: Politsei pidas kinni Sinimägedes piketeerijad:
“ 20. Eesti relvagrenaderide diviisi veteranid kogunesid Sinimägedes Granderimäel traditsioonilisele kokkutulekule.
Esmakordselt korraldas ürituse noorematest meestest koosnev Eesti leegioni sõprade klubi. 		”
Translation by Google:
“ Estonian Waffen Grenadier Division veterans gathered [at the] Sinimäe Granderimäel [hill for their] traditional reunions.
For the first time an [the] event [was] organized by the younger men, made up of legions of friends, a club in Estonia. 		”
Here are some other Estonian newspaper stories on the event: (This year the Estonian news coverage of the event was dominated by the arrest of five members of Nochnoy Dozor trying to stage a protest at the event.)
Eesti Päevaleht
Õhtuleht
Postimees
English as a source language has no special place on any Wikipedia, least yet at Commons, which is a multilingual project. But, as you asked for English language sources I will give some. However I cannot guarantee that they are as “objective” as the Estonian sources.
Let's start with this opinion by Efraim Zuroff in the Jerusalem Post: Rewriting Shoah history in Estonia.
Zuroff is quoted by The “Adolf Hitler Research Society” in the “Nazis in the News” section of their web site on August 26, 2009 ESTONIA BREAKS FREE. Evidently Zuroff at least got his facts right!
More criticism comes from Russia:
Some other foreign sources:
The web also provides plenty of non-free photo material from the Waffen-SS reunions, much of it created by the participants. No one seems to ashamed of posing with the SS.
Organizers
-- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Jeez... ask for a lil' more detail and I get a firehose turned on. Given the raft of information, I'd say the description given is fine for the various images. Given that the nominator has said he'll withdraw it if it's renamed, if there are no objections from the uploader, I'll go ahead and do just that, then close this request out as withdrawn. (Hint Petri: say "no objections" <G>) Tabercil (talk) 03:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment please let me know anybody if this political soapboxing above needs addressing? otherwise I'd be fine with the suggestions above "retitle appropriately and keep" for example to "Sinimaed Commemoration XX.jpg", just that the uploader has refused to comply.--Termer (talk) 03:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Q to Tabercil Given the raft of information, I'd say the description given is fine for the various images. Which ones exactly? I hate to go over this all over again that has been happening on Wikipedia with similar issues, but considering your conclusion it seems that the firehose still needs to be addressed? that's fine. Please see
  • An article on Economist [3] [4] citation: "READ the Russian-language internet, and you will find Estonia portrayed as a hell-hole ruled by Nazi sympathisers who organise a grotesque form of apartheid hypocritically endorsed by the European Union...What really annoys the Kremlin crowd is that Estonians (like many others in eastern Europe) regarded the arrival of the Red Army in 1944-45 not as a liberation, but as the exchange of one ghastly occupation for another".
  • Estonia hits back over Putin's "Nazi" remarks

Please let me know if more sources are needed and points above need to be further addressed. Thanks!--Termer (talk) 04:31, 15 September 2009 (UTC) --Termer (talk) 04:31, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I'm not unconversant with what occurred in Eastern Europe during World War 2 - I am aware that when German troops first entered Russia, they were treated as heroes and it wasn't until the Nazi party machinery arrived in their trail that the responses changed. Tabercil (talk) 12:40, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, let me put it this way, why does someone who got banned from Wikipedia for similar SS campaign need to say "no objections" to changing his controversial naming conventions? Are you saying it's OK to label living people with Waffen-SS tag on Commons Tabercil until the uploader who has clearly declared "No need to delete or rename" doesn't object to the rename any more? I'm not getting this why those images are not getting renamed ASAP pr Jmabel -"Should be handled quickly because of libel potential".--Termer (talk) 13:53, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's called trying to achieve consensus, and also giving Petri the benefit of the doubt. As I said earlier, I want to keep this RfD civil and polite, and avoid any of the drama that EN has gotten on the topic. I'm not saying I won't jump in and act as you're suggesting, but if I can avoid ruffling feathers I will. Tabercil (talk) 16:53, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry but I didn't get it, consensus on what? It's that simple: either it's ok to upload pictures of living people with the SS tag or it's not?--Termer (talk) 01:48, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Here is how this thing works: If I upload an image of George W Bush under the name File:Asshole Bush.jpg, I agree, it would be defamation. If I catch a high resolution “full frontal” of George W Bush's naked butt and upload it under the same name, it would not be defamation. (I do not know if Commons would like to keep the image though :-) -- Petri Krohn (talk) 02:55, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good points Petri Krohn, so in case you'll "catch a high resolution" of someone wearing a T shirt etc. saying "I'm with the Waffen-SS" feel free to upload it under the same name.--Termer (talk) 03:02, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Easy folks... as I said, I do not want any of the tussling from EN brought here. And I've gotten an email from Petri indicating that he is not consenting to the rename. Tabercil (talk) 03:24, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what exactly are you saying Tabercil? The fact that the uploader is not willing to go for a rename has been clear for me from the beginning, that's why I opened this deletion request in the first place.--Termer (talk) 03:52, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
 Keep, keeping the file name. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 06:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there's no cause for deletion as I see it. We have individuals present at the ceremony who were indeed Waffen-SS so the name and descriptions are both technically accurate so the charge of defamation is not totally accurate. What needs to be done is to expand the description to make it clear that they were only part of the overall group of people present. Tabercil (talk) 12:14, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
RE:We have individuals present at the ceremony who were indeed Waffen-SS?
Please point out who exactly on the images were indeed the Waffen-SS? And how do you know that? Please note that the Waffen-SS has been declared a criminal organization (except conscripts) pr Nuremberg trials, therefore I think it would be important to point out who exactly is considered to be part of this criminal organization on those images once you think that "defamation is not totally accurate".--Termer (talk) 01:06, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's why I said the description has to be expanded - to make clear that while some of the individuals present were Waffen SS vets, not all are. Tabercil (talk) 02:07, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
According to the organizers, by tradition, food from the field kichen is only served to Waffen-SS veterans. We can thus induce, that those eating or waiting in line for food are indeed Waffen-SS veterans or family members. It is also clear, that anyone under 80 years is not a veteran. Many of these people are public figures in Estonia. I do not think we need to start listing names though. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:50, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems I wasn't clear: who out of the individuals present on the images were the Waffen SS vets exactly and how do we know that? And again, vets of the Waffen SS as a criminal organization declared so by the Nuremberg trials. And the bottom line: does the Waffen SS as a criminal organization apply to any of the possible vets on the images in the first place? --Termer (talk) 02:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If I'm not mistaken, the bulk of the individuals present were part of the Estonian SS division, right? That specific group was singled out by the U.S. goverment:
The Baltic Waffen-SS Units (Baltic Legions) are to be considered as separate and distinct in purpose, ideology, activities, and qualifications for membership from the German SS, and therefore the Commission holds them not to be a movement hostile to the Government of the United States.
As for the others that were from different countries (e.g., French, Belgian, etc.), I would presume that by now, any punishments that were to be dealt out by their national governments would have been dealt with by now. If by some chance a specific individual somehow avoided it, it's not Wikmedia's responsibility to deal with it.
Lastly, I've reread COM:D. The section that applies in this case states:
"The file is not realistically useful for an educational purpose. Examples of files that are not realistically useful include... files apparently created and/or uploaded for the purpose of vandalism or attack. Pre-existing designs and symbols that are or have been associated with nationalistic or racist causes are not out of scope solely because they may cause offence. Provided they are legal to host and otherwise fall within Commons scope (e.g. if they could for example be used to illustrate a Wikipedia article on a hate group) they should be kept."
In this instance, the images do fall into Commons scope in that they can conceivably be used to illustrate Wikipedia articles. Tabercil (talk) 04:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Again, who exactly on those images is from the SS division? For the rest sorry but I didn't get it what has your last post to do with anything what is undre the discussion. The reason I have brought this case to communities attention can be found in COM:PEOPLE You should bear in mind that defamation may arise not only from the content of the image itself but also from its description and title when uploaded. An image of an identified unknown individual may be unexceptional on its own, but with the title "A drug-dealer" (read -Waffen SS) there may be potential defamation issues in at least some countries. And last but not least: Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information by Jimmy Wales: Spelled out at W:Living persons: Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion.
Finally, I can't believe it that the user who has been banned from Wikipedia for his ss and nazi obsessions can just bring his agenda freely to Commons instead and we're haveing a discussion about it.--Termer (talk) 05:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
PS. they could for example be used to illustrate a Wikipedia article on a hate group? wait a second please, are you saying that those images represent a hate group? Who says so? That was a very serious remark because it's going further than a label 'SS' or for example a 'drug dealer'.--Termer (talk) 05:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No vote. Have fun - I'm walking away from this request. A lil' reasonableness from either side and I could've closed this out easily. As it is, both of you are entrenched and I don't care to handle this anymore. Tabercil (talk) 05:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it's me but there has been zero communication going on in here. I do not understand your reactions, you comments and your reasons and what is here to vote over. The only thing: yes, you could've closed this out easily by simply renaming the images.--Termer (talk) 06:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but I got an earful from the uploader via email indicating his firm refusal to entertain renaming, among other things. He also states that he felt some of the comments made were personal attacks and asked that they be removed. I've not done that since I felt that, while you've been rather aggressive on this topic, your statements haven't quite gone into the personal attack area. So far we have only 4 voices: you calling for deletion initially, then acceeding to renaming, the uploader firmly saying keep as is with no renaming, a neutral Wikipedian (Pieter Kuiper) saying keep as is with no renaming, and me trying to find a middle ground in all this. Having read through the battleground that was EN on this topic while reading up on W:Wikipedia:DIGWUREN and W:User:Petri Krohn, I do not wish to get sucked into a similar tussle here on Commons all by myself, so I'm stepping back. Tabercil (talk) 15:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reality check - Before anyone says anything stupid, I suggest you view this set of photos by DelfiPressifoto in slideshow mode. Click on the first photo, then on the magnifying glass icon on the the top part of the image. Click Järgmine to view the next image. As I said earlier, these photos are far better than mine. However, they are unfree! -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What's your point? The only thing I can say, agree with you: these photos are far better than yours, and this is only because no living persons on those images have been labeled with the Waffen SS tag either in the file naming conventions or by the image descriptions.--Termer (talk) 06:04, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and/or rename, they seem like boring holiday snaps of young and old people standing around, and given inappropriate picture names and descriptions, we don't even know where and when these pictures were taken, could even be some tourist group/s on different days for all we know. For example, picture Nbr 175 - picture of a young couple sitting on the grass, description:"Estonian Waffen-SS veterans celebrating the 65th anniversary of the battles on the Sinimäed hills in 1944". They look a bit young to be veterans from 1944, was it even taken at the same location, lol. I can only wonder at their horror on discovering their picture posted here with that caption. There are many other similar pictures that should be deleted, while others should be renamed. --Martintg (talk) 01:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Right. Time to put this sucker to bed. I've been trading emails with others on this and I've come to the conclusion that renaming is the only way to go on this. As a result, all will be renamed to "Sinimäed Memorial 2009 - XXX.jpg", where XXX is the original file number. Also, some of the photos can be trimmed away as they seem too tangential to the original purpose of the photo set. As a result, I've deleted 137, 164 & 175. Lastly, the description has been edited to state "Memorial service on the 65th anniversary of the battles on the Sinimäed hills in 1944, where a number of veterans attended including Estonian Waffen-SS members.". And with that, this is closed. Tabercil (talk) 22:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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