Commons:Deletion requests/Template:PD-Ottoman Empire
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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.
The notion that Ottoman works are public domain applies to the US only, by the virtue of {{PD-1923}}. However, they're all still copyrighted in Turkey, the legal successor of the Ottoman Empire (unlike the Russian case), so per Commons policy they cannot be hosted here. Liliana-60 (talk) 23:40, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
Keep I'm not sure what the difference is between this template and {{PD-1923}} or {{PD-1996}} which also refer only to the US. Often it is necessary to combine a US-only template (such as {{PD-1923}}) with a non-US template (such as {{PD-old-70}}) to tell why a work is out of copyright in both the US and the source country. For an Ottoman work first published in 1923, you can't use {{PD-1923}}+{{PD-old-70}}, so you would need {{PD-Ottoman Empire}}+{{PD-old-70}} instead. The template remains useful until the end of 2018. --Stefan4 (talk) 23:56, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- Did you even read the deletion request? -- Liliana-60 (talk) 01:35, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- Yes. Did you read what I wrote above? {{PD-1923}} tells that works published before 1923 are in the public domain in the US whereas {{PD-Ottoman Empire}} tells that works published until mid-1923 are in the public domain in the US. Notice the difference? --Stefan4 (talk) 01:56, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps historians of Turkey could enlighten us, but it seems that the Ottoman empire had definitely ceased to exist before 1923. The last of its institutions, the sultanate, was abolished in 1922. I don't know if there's such a notion as "an Ottoman work first published in 1923". -- Asclepias (talk) 02:19, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- The infobox at en:Ottoman Empire says that it existed from 1299 to 1923. --Stefan4 (talk) 03:25, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- Did you even read the deletion request? -- Liliana-60 (talk) 01:35, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- Comment: The reasoning of the user who worded this template was not sufficiently explained. From a U.S. copyright perspective, a work published at the time of the Ottoman Empire would be PD-1923. And for the "PD in the country of origin" aspect of the Commons policy, it depends how we interpret it and we would probably refer to the copyright laws of the modern countries now covering the territory, including the successive versions of those laws. The template includes this sentence: "The Ottoman Empire did not recognize international copyright so works published there are not protected by copyright internationally." It would be useful if we could have the full reasoning of the user for that statement. The situation might be more complex than that, based on clues from the treaty of Lausanne, for example its article 90. -- Asclepias (talk) 02:19, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- No, the law is retroactive, per article 1 of transitional provisions: Unless otherwise determined in the following articles, the provisions of this Law shall also apply to works first disclosed to the public on the territory of the Republic of Turkey or entered in the register prior to the entry into force of this Law. This provision shall apply even where the Copyright Law of May 8, 1326 (1910), did not apply to such works or products. -- Liliana-60 (talk) 11:24, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- Keep unless there is some very specific valid explanation of why other countries should or do recognize a retroactive Turkish law. Furthermore, many works created within the Ottoman empire were created in territory which never became part of post-Ottoman Turkey, so that Turkey has no authority to legislate about them (except under strange legal theorizings that would be even more bizarre than a retroactive law). AnonMoos (talk) 11:39, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
- Why they should? Because Turkey is a member of en:Berne Convention. Remember the fuzz about {{PD-Soviet}}? Yeah, same reason applies here. Granted, you are right about the "works released in seceded parts of the Ottoman Empire" part, but those are under jurisdiction of other modern countries and need to use their templates (like {{PD-Lebanon}}, {{PD-Syria}} etc.). -- Liliana-60 (talk) 12:26, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, I am convinced that there was retroactive legislation; (which of course only served big corporate copyright owners).
Delete the template (but it should not result in many deletions - most is {{PD-anon-70}}. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 13:01, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, I am convinced that there was retroactive legislation; (which of course only served big corporate copyright owners).
- Why they should? Because Turkey is a member of en:Berne Convention. Remember the fuzz about {{PD-Soviet}}? Yeah, same reason applies here. Granted, you are right about the "works released in seceded parts of the Ottoman Empire" part, but those are under jurisdiction of other modern countries and need to use their templates (like {{PD-Lebanon}}, {{PD-Syria}} etc.). -- Liliana-60 (talk) 12:26, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
- Keep unless there is some very specific valid explanation of why other countries should or do recognize a retroactive Turkish law. Furthermore, many works created within the Ottoman empire were created in territory which never became part of post-Ottoman Turkey, so that Turkey has no authority to legislate about them (except under strange legal theorizings that would be even more bizarre than a retroactive law). AnonMoos (talk) 11:39, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
- No, the law is retroactive, per article 1 of transitional provisions: Unless otherwise determined in the following articles, the provisions of this Law shall also apply to works first disclosed to the public on the territory of the Republic of Turkey or entered in the register prior to the entry into force of this Law. This provision shall apply even where the Copyright Law of May 8, 1326 (1910), did not apply to such works or products. -- Liliana-60 (talk) 11:24, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
- Keep The Ottoman Empire did not recognize the international copyright agreements. Turkey is not the only successor of the Ottoman Empire and it is not always possible to know where a work was created. The Ottoman Empire ceased to exist in 1923. Turkey signed Berne Convention in 1952.--Abuk SABUK (talk) 00:44, 18 March 2012 (UTC)