Commons:Deletion requests/Template:Euro coin common face

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This deletion debate is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Template:Euro coin common face

[edit]

"reproduction in a format without relief (drawings, paintings, films) provided they are not detrimental to the image of the euro" There are three conditions in conflict with licensing policy: 1) an ideological one ("diametral to the image") 2) a restriction on the format of use ("format without relief") 3) nonderivative ("reproduction"). Moreover, I advise that Commons should accept only pictures for which the source web site displays a clear CC license tag (or has an equivalent release boilerplate for a standard, non-home-brew license). --Rtc 08:10, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • neutral Basically the aim of this kind of license is to avoid people making fake coins ;) So I feel that the restriction about "format" should be not a problem to us. On the other hand, the wording about the detrimental way to use a derivative work seems more fuzzy to me and may lead to more trouble. What are the restrictions about the pictural reproductions of USD coins for example? -- AlNo (discuter/talk/hablar/falar) 14:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep How is the image detrimental to the image of the euro? You can't make a 3D die out of a 2D image. And I take that the 3rd point means no alteration. Most of these images are straight copy from the source. --Chochopk 07:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, actually, if this licence implies that there is no possible derivative work, we should not keep the image as we want them to be freely reusable... -- AlNo (discuter/talk/hablar/falar) 07:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep In my interpretation it's allowed to use such an image to display the coin in general but not to fake the existence of a particular one. I disagree with Rtc on the restriction to CC or comparable since that results again in one image uploaded multiple times to different Wikipediae. --32X 14:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • By "additional work", I was referring to "I disagree [...] since that results again in one image uploaded multiple times to different Wikipediae". His or her justification for disagreeing is not a valid argument in my opinion. — Ksero 13:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please read this. The reproduction rules you linked to only state the cases that are expressly forbidden. The pdf shows in what cases you are allowed to reproduce the design. And those rules are too restricted for the commons in my opinion. — Ksero 18:31, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 'rules' state that you must attribute and defer to the European Central Bank when using these images. It asks only for credit. Which part of the 'rules' are too restrictive? --Theeuro 08:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Images of the euro coins can not be altered in any way shape or form to begin with as is the case with most images of most circulating coinage in the world. The same priciples of image licensing that apply to other images can not be applied to those of the euro coinage. Detrimental in this case refers to defacing the euro coin image istelf. In other words, you can not alter the image in any way shape or form. This does not mean that you can't save it in a different file type. This means that when you save the image, it can't look any different from the original. In the course of saving to .gif format, there are always issues with pixilation, etc. This is not the same thing as defacing the image of the euro coin, and is therefore allowed. 'Non- dirivative' is assumed unless you superimpose the unaltered image of the euro coin atop someone's head for a fun photograph. All images of euro coins no matter the source are in the public domain and can be used for anything provided the text in the current license is present. --Theeuro 21:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wouldn't "detrimental" also include using these images on an "The Euro Sucks"-web site? Also, if I take a picture of a few euro coins, I'm the copyright holder of that image. Thus it's obvious that not all images of euro coins are in the public domain. — Ksero 18:31, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Detrimental in this case refers to defacing the image of the euro coin. So one could not put a scratch into it intentionally without legal consequences. It is against international law to deface any coin. Regarding your picture: you can claim copyright over the picture, so long as appropriate attribution is made and the euro coin is not in any way altered- so the same rules apply to your photograph as they do to the images that are used here. All images of the euro coin are in the public domain. One thing must be clear... images of any and all money are in the public domain by design and definition. Rules apply for images of any and all money that do not apply to other images such as Dover's 1500 Pictures of Celtic Crosses. They are unique and can not be grouped into any categories that here exist. --Theeuro 08:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, obviously. I see no reason whatsoever to delete the euro images. —Nightstallion (?) 07:35, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Buy yourself glasses. I gave not one, not two, no, three reasons for deleting the images. --rtc 16:29, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I presume that Nightstallion doesn't consider the reasons you stated to be valid reasons to delete the images, and I agree. The images as held on the commons abide by all of the criteria set out in the licensing and are hence free for use by any person for any purpose, the licensing criteria for the commons. Bigbluefish 23:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • No, they are not free to modify and they are not free to use for reproduction in a format without relief, and they are also not free to use diametral to the image of the euro. --rtc 07:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Actually, Bigbluefish, they are not free for "any purpose": namely, what rtc has already wrote in text twice. --Iamunknown 20:06, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • They are free to use for reproduction in a format without relief. The idea is that one can not make a reproduction of the coin in such a way that a 3 dimentional product is the result. By this standard, one would not be permitted to make a plaster cast of the coin. That is what is meant by 'releif'. I'm not sure where you are getting your interpretation of this policy from. It seems as though you are not understanding what these terms mean. '...provided they are not detrimental to the image of the euro' means the image itself, the actual picture. It does not mean image in terms of what others think about it. However, if you want to put a red line through the coin, you can not. If you want to replace the portrait of King Albert II with that of Adolf Hitler, you can not. This has nothing to do whatsoever with the terms of use provided by the ECB in using images of the euro coins. This has to do with international law regarding the use of coinage worldwide. To what end are you trying to restrict the use of images of the euro coins? If this is your argument, then all images of all money regardless of nationality must be removed from commons. This problem will not be solved by having someone take pictures of the coins and then upload those pictures to commons, because the same restrictions will apply to those as well. The restrictions apply to all images of all coinage worldwide. Even coinage which is outdated and obsolete are governed by this law. For the purposes of what they are used for in Wikipedia, images of euro coins are allowed to be used. What is so difficult to understand, and what is this argument really about? --Theeuro 08:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • One can not 'derive' any images of any coins of any country unless the image of the actual coin remains intact. This is an international standard, governed by international law. --Theeuro 08:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - as has been said before, "provided they are not detrimental to the image of the euro." is clearly not compatible with the Commons "images and other media files that can be used by anyone, for any purpose". — Ksero 16:28, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, Image in terms of the actual image, not image in terms of what people think about something or someone. The images can be used for anything by anyone. --Theeuro 08:06, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(in response to previous comments): What international treaty(ies) are you referring to? The International Convention for the Suppression of Counterfeiting Currency, and Protocol of 1929? In addition, if pictures of coins and banknotes must be unaltered, what about printing "SPECIMEN" across images of banknotes to signify that they aren't real banknotes (as required by the ECB with images of euro banknotes [1])?
As for the meaning of "image", it might be appropriate to go to the source instead of quoting that simplified pamphlet/poster. From 2001/C 318/03:

Reproduction of all or part of the common face design of the euro coins is authorised without recourse to a specific procedure in the following cases:
- for photographs, drawings, paintings, films, images, and generally reproductions in flat format (without relief) provided they are in faithful likeness and are used in ways which do not damage or detract from the image of the euro;

[...]

I'd say that the word image in that paragraph refers to "image in terms of what people think about something or someone". Coincidentally, this is from the same text, which I think refutes TheEuro's "All images of the euro coin are in the public domain":

The copyright on the design of the common face of the euro coins belongs to the European Community represented by the Commission.

Regarding other currencies, that depends on the country. See for example Wikipedia:Template:Money-US and the other at Wikipedia:Category:Currency_copyright_tags
Regarding "For the purposes of what they are used for in Wikipedia, images of euro coins are allowed to be used", I agree. But let me again quote Commons:Licensing: "The Wikimedia Commons only accepts free content, that is, images and other media files that can be used by anyone, for any purpose"
Also, let me clarify that deleting these images on the Commons doesn't mean that Wikipedia will be devoid of images of euro coins. It just means that images of euro coins will have to be uploaded to each wikipedia (once for each language), possibly with a fair use rationale (for the national side of euro coins). — Ksero 13:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wasn't aware that this was the case. Having said that, it does seem counter-productive to have to upload to each wikipedia.
I'm not sure if you know this but I am employed by the EU as liaison between EBC and EC. It is my duty to provide images and specifications to the public via EC from ECB in the form of PDF files and then those are published in the OJ. It is my job to know what this language means. I was present when the text was written and as the liaison, my signature appears on this document. The particular term 'image' in the case in point refers to the actual image of the coins themselves. The euro has no image in terms of what people think, oficially speaking. Some people hate it others embrace it. Personal opinion and writing about personal opinion is not governed by the ECB. While the EU in general has become what we refer to as the 'union of red tape', it certainly hasn't begun imposing on the personal liberties of its citizens or those of other nationalities.
The International Convention for the Suppression of Counterfeiting Currency, and Protocol of 1929 is not as all what I am refering to. The euro coins are in the public domain. Their images are in the public domain. No single country or entity has any copyright or other image protection rights over those images aside from the restrictions set forth by the ECB, which is again enforced by international law. Printing SPECIMIN across banknotes does little to deter counterfeiting and if one can make a passible euro banknote simply by copying the image of one without SPECIMIN printed accross, then they deserve to spend the money. They have also circumvented no less than 1500 counter measures in place to prevent such things from happening. The coins are what people try to counterfeit the most.
Is there a way to modify or include something within the Commons policy to seperate images of coins from other images? I think this is the only solution we have before us that would make everyone happy. Can Commons not simply add an addendum to their policy regarding such images? There is the concern that other images will be requested a special dispensation or suspension along these lines, but surely coinage and other monetary forms present a unique challenge to the existing policy. I'm not very content at all to accept the notion that what is allowed on Wikipedia is not allowed in Commons. My impression is that Wikipedia would rather have the images exist on Commons in the first place.
I would shudder to think that these articles must go without images simply because a rule must be followed. You know if all the rules were followed the euro would never exist. Germany and Austria were prevented from joining any unions together in any form in 1946. That rule was ammended to allow for them to participate in both the EU and the EMU.
The idea of conforming to a rule simply because said rule is written is not the expected practice of the creative people who contribute to Commons and/or Wikipedia.
Can there be a middle ground to 'be bold' and change the policy? --Theeuro 09:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So you are saying that these pictures are essentially {{Nonderivative}}. No, that can't be changed, and no exception can be made, see Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy. They have to be deleted. --rtc 13:42, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep no real legal problem once the obvious legal warning is taken into account. Michelet-密是力 17:43, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • rtc, this is being ridiculous. Whatever the copyright warning, no licence will ever allow you to make conterfeit money. The objections you raise apply for any kind of currency, and the answer is the same anywhere: as long as reproduction is allowed, it can be used under a free licence, since no authorisation nor payment is needed to reproduce the currency, and you can use it in any kind of derivative work - provide, of course, you are not making conterfeit currency ! but then, this is not an "author's right" issue, but penal lay applied to false monney, of course. The copyright warning is perfectly correct as it is. Michelet-密是力 17:26, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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