Commons:Deletion requests/Italian CoA

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Italian CoA - again

2,605 images were nominated in the DR below and the result vas "Deleted", But the images was never deleted and it is more than a year ago this debate started:

This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Italian CoA

First of all, it:Wikipedia:Autorizzazioni ottenute/Stemmi is no valid permission (refer to Commons:OTRS and Commons:Email templates). Second, the administration of the muncipality has to release the Coat of Arms as well („È necessario richiedere all'amministrazione comunale competente l'autorizzazione all'utilizzo secondo quanto indicato alla pagina Progetto:Coordinamento/Immagini#Stemmi“), which obviously needs another otrs ticket. Code·is·poetry 19:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Porto Azzurro-Stemma.png
This applies to these other files as well.

I asked about this permission before and got directed to Senpai/Senpaiottolo so I recommend inviting him to this discussion. /Lokal _Profil 23:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete È necessario richiedere all'amministrazione comunale competente l'autorizzazione all'utilizzo IMHO this is not the main problem, because this is not a copyright law. In Italy, a permission is needed to use a coat of arms, but this is not a problem about coats of arms draws copyright, and so Commons can not account for ("This may be regulated by geographical, trademark, or other laws unrelated to copyrights, which Wikimedia Commons can not account for", from Commons:Licensing). But this is a it.wiki problem; there, we use a particular tag; see, for example, it:Image:Loano-Stemma.png. However, I think that the problem is in the http://www.araldicacivica.it permission: they released their draws under GFDL, but I think that they are not enough informed about commercial purpose allowed by this license. So, I believe that a new permission is needed (obviously with a ticket OTRS). Further, on their website AFAIK there is also coats of arms from others website, under "fair use" concept or something like that; see, for example, this coat of arms, without author's name, and this one, with the name of the drawer (Stemma ridisegnato da: Massimo Ghirardi - coat of arms redrawn by Massimo Ghirardi.)--Trixt (talk) 18:48, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Has araldicacivica in fact created any of the drawings or are the just a website collecting arms from other sources. If the later is true then they aren't in a position to release them at all. /Lokal _Profil 23:50, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: It's [1], isn't it? Forrester [[ hate+love letters ]] 14:11, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, also [2].--Trixt (talk) 19:23, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep As for the two reasons (1) I came here from Image:Reggio Emilia Stemma.png and I was wondering about the reason, because Image:Stemma reggio emilia municipio.jpg is allowed, and the graphic image as a derived work similar COA reproductions should be free also. This extends to (almost all) other COA's. Commons must not act "more catholic than the pope". (2) Non-free: not free to show as an image, or not free to be used as a official stamp. We are only concerned with copyright, we just must warn against false offical use, as is generally done for coats of arms. That's the meaning of utilisation in l'autorizzazione all'utilizzo and that's not a reason for deletion. Havang(nl) (talk) 09:23, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is not the problem. For the "cannot use as stamp" we have {{Insignia}}. The problem with these images is on the copyright side, i.e. whether araldicacivica has the right to the images and if they do whether they have actually released them under GFDL for anyone to use. For the first part of that problem we require a) that araldicacivica has themselves drawn the images or been given the images and all rights to them. And b) that they are interpretations of the en:blazon of the coat of arms rather then interpretations of the images used by the municipalities which would make them derivative works of copyrighted images. /Lokal _Profil 21:25, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is a rule that what a national or local government edit, is cpoyrightfree, including the coats of arms. Variants (material, color, variation in form of details within the registered heraldic descrition) which have negliglible added value remain free but it is well-done to acknowledge the maker of the variants (here probably araldicacivica; there are find other sites with coa's. Free copyright is established at the moment the description of the Coats of (lower and higher) governments are registered and officially published by the central governement. I maintain my

Keep.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Havang(nl) (talk • contribs) 11:23, 8. October 2008 (UTC). Sorry, I sign now. Havang(nl) (talk) 14:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry can you please show me the italian law stating that all of their Coat of arms (even on municipal level) are Public Domain. When that is done we also have to show that all of araldicacivicas image are just minor variations (read PD-ineligible) of the official interpretations (i.e. the images the government drew up). If the images have major variations (enough to merit their own copyright) or are new interpretations of the blazon then araldicacivica (or whoever created the image) owns the copyright of it. More info on the last part can be found at COM:COA. /Lokal _Profil 13:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the second point: COA's are defined by their verbal description officially registered (they don't register the images, because they allow for variations). Making a Coat is assembling elements of Coats according to the registered description (Commons has a whole lot of such elements), that's why the designers don't get copyright of the COA. For the first point: My statement indeed is a general one: as a Public Governement (higher or lower) releases something for the Public, (RES PUBLICA) it is Public Domain, and COA's have been released for the Public. I cannot give text of such a law in Italy. As the italian wikipedia has copyright rules also, I consider that an implicit proof that the italian law has forseen in this; I am not in a position to make that proof explicit. But I also see no proof of copyvio in your arguments as you cannot proof that there is a copyrightholder other than the Public (Governement). I close this my third and last plead) by persisting in

Keep. Havang(nl) (talk) 18:11, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are two separate issues here. First, in traditional European-based forms of heraldry, coats of arms are actually defined by their textual description or "blazon". In this situation, many different artistic visual renderings of a single coat of arms (based on its textual blazon) might be considered acceptable versions -- and if you make a new visual rendering of the coat of arms from scratch based on the textual blazon, then you would own the copyright to your particular rendering. (However, the use of the arms might still be restricted in some jurisdictions by non-copyright requirements -- see Template:Insignia.)

Second, there's the question of downloading pre-made coat-of-arms images from Italian government websites and then uploading them to Wikimedia Commons. That's a completely different and separate issue, which is determined by the technicalities of Italian copyright law. AnonMoos (talk) 15:44, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@ Ann Moos, the main issue is not about copyright, but about copyright violation. Someone having copyright of a picture does not include a priory that copying that picture is copyvio. Accidentally, I just got my first OTRS-ticket for a free image, and this sentence of the ticket : I am aware that I always retain copyright of my work, shows that this distinction is known on wikipedia and commons. Havang(nl) (talk) 15:10, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Havang, this is not quite right. Using an image without the explicit permission of the copyright owner _is_ copyright infringement. There is a chance that you are not sued, but it is _not_ OK. In this actual case: If we copy the CoAs and they are copyrighted, we need to be permitted to do it _before_ we do it. We cannot just copy random stuff and later say “Oh, I copied something, I hope it's OK.”. The copyright owner can then sue you for using his material, even if you remove it right away. -- ChrisiPK (Talk|Contribs) 16:50, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I-will-not-add-arguments-after-my-last-plead-so-consider-this-an-off-the-record-answer-to-Chrisi: You too miss my point: There are situations were copying may be allowed without explicit permission of a copyrightholder. Compare it to texte translations: in court, the source-texte overrules the translations. Blason registration and governemental publication may overrule executioners copyrights. The judgment to be made is really whether or not copyright violation occurs. Havang(nl) (talk) 20:41, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This one seems to have gone quiet for some time. Since there seem to be no new info supporting araldicacivica actually being in a position to release this images I'm leaning towards

Delete. It would be nice however to have one or two other voices added to this before I go ahead and delete the 996 (at least) images covered by this deletion request. /Lokal _Profil 01:19, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

[3] reveals 1021 pages (not all are images). /Lokal _Profil 01:25, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

it:Template:StemmiComunaliItaliani suggests that these image might be covered by an Exemption Doctrine Policy on it.wiki. In which case they could be locally uploaded there (and possibly en.wiki too). /Lokal _Profil 01:31, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted. MBisanz ^talk 23:36, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmmm. And what about the other 2077 files this deletion request applies to? Lupo 22:23, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Italian CoA - july 2009

I did a new search and found these files:

The list (2605 entries)

The new debate

As I see it the result was deleted so unless someone can provide good arguments for keep we should finish the job and delete the files. --MGA73 (talk) 09:41, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

People at the Italian WP are informed here. Please leave this deletion request open for at least a week so people have the time to respond. Multichill (talk) 11:09, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was about to nuke all of these some time ago but ended up not doing it since I knew my Wiki break would prevent me from answering the inevitable angry messages. But apart from making sure it.wp are aware (and have the possibility to locally upload if they allow fair use) there shouldn't be anything preventing the deletion of these. /Lokal _Profil 11:14, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just give people some time to let it sink in and maybe add some to it:Speciale:PuntanoQui/Template:StemmiComunaliItaliani or fair use at enwp. Multichill (talk) 11:18, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

These images prerfectily fit our EDP, so we must move them on it.wiki. --Vituzzu (talk) 11:20, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hope you don't mind that I collapsed the list. This way it's easier to see the discussion whilst still being made aware of the massive amount of images affected. /Lokal _Profil 11:22, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No that is super - I knew it was possible but could not find the code :-) --MGA73 (talk) 11:41, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway I noticed that some of the files were SVG-files. I doubt they are from the web page. Any chance we could keep them? --MGA73 (talk) 13:02, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

SVG should have no problems: COAs' descriptions are under PD, not their graphic implementation. --Vituzzu (talk) 17:34, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vituzzu, do you know how long it will take to move them to itwiki? Just so I know when I can start deleting them on Commons. MBisanz ^talk 20:32, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If SVG are ok then someone might want to convert/redraw them to SVG? --MGA73 (talk) 20:35, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We should keep the files. The decision does not seem to be clear to me. In fact it is absolute nonsense to host multiple copies of these files in multiple wikipedias - it's crazy wasting equipment. --Gruß Tom (talk) 20:51, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Before you delete 'em, please give me (and thus the deWP) a chance to transfer them (bot-supported). I guess it'll be doable in a few days (and I guess, a few days more won't matter here). --Guandalug (talk) 21:28, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@MBisanz: in these days I'm very busy but I'm talking with other users in order to decide the way to move back the images, most should be only undeleted (it will take less than reuploading them locally). By the way I think other big wikis which has articles about italian cities would like to transfer the images locally. The first of August? --Vituzzu (talk) 08:31, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree we can wait a few days. But you are very velcome to take a look on the images and see if some are tagged by a mistake. --MGA73 (talk) 12:38, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@Vituzzu regarding SVG: Depends. If the SVG is based on the raster image rather then the description then it's still unfree. The only way to make it free is by doing an independent interpretation of the description.

How is the image transfeering going btw.? Has en, it and de wiki (don't know which other wikis have suitable EDPs) got them?/Lokal _Profil 23:23, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No progress for two weeks. I'm going to delete the images this afternoon, unless I see a big "wait!!!". Multichill (talk) 09:13, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Congratulations for enviable patience... :/ --melos (talk) 09:05, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted no big wait. Huib talk 16:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Commons:Deletion requests/Italian CoA

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Italian CoA - again

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Italian CoA - again

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