Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by Rnieders

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Files uploaded by Rnieders (talk · contribs)

Technical images, photos and schema for a Tijuana airport development plan. No indication that uploader holds copyright to any of these images, probable COM:COPYVIO.

Ellin Beltz (talk) 18:23, 1 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above listed images were produced and created by me, rnieders to build the Tijuana cross-border terminal along the U.S.-Mexico border in 1990-2008. I am listed and quoted in many of the references listed on the Wikipedia article, including the Wall Street Journal (2001) and presented the project in Washington D.C. at the State Department February 2002 and represented the project before the San Diego Regional Airport Authority until 2006. Who can I contact to clarify this issue? Rnieders (talk) 03:16, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Perhaps I can be more clear by splitting the nomination into sections:

Three promotional images with over printing and no sources for the base images.

Two air photos with superimposed images

File:Aero Charter-Nieders Tijuana cross-border terminal concept 1991a.jpg
File:Valenzuela-Nieders cross-border airport concept.jpg For both of these, the question must be asked, what is the source of the air photo that is below the added artwork? Who created the added artwork?

A series of three maps with different base maps and overprinting:

File:San Diego TwinPorts airport proposal 1991L.jpg -- a unique base map, wider line widths and shading.
File:Image 1- Mexicana de Aviacion Tijuana cross-border terminal proposal 1990.jpg -- is titled & captioned in Spanish (eg: Taxiway = Pista de Taxeo & note not USA but the Spanish variant of abbreviation) on a totally different base map than others in this series.
File:Casey_Development-Nieders_Tijuana_cross-border_terminal_proposal_1996a.jpg - another unique different base map than others in this series, leading to the obvious conclusion that not all these maps were prepared by one person.

The following six drawings/documennts appear to be from same or similar software:

And File:GAP Tijuana airport phased master plan 2000-2015.jpg which was stated in the text of the wiki Tijuana Cross-border Terminal article: "In July, 2000, GAP published a 210-page Master Plan for the Tijuana airport (Plan Maestro del Aeropuerto de Tijuana) prepared by AENA."

I also point out that the name of this uploader appears forty-three times throughout the article and article references; possibly too close to subject and too promotional by habit. Ellin Beltz (talk) 04:09, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Forgot to log in when responding have tried to answer questions on images below Rnieders (talk) 06:16, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The images referenced below were originally drawn and then scanned and were prototype images I developed of the terminal, in the first picture the background people were scanned upside down. They were used in the presentation made in Washington DC for the Partnership for Prosperity (Fed2002 and referenced in the article)

 Comment Perhaps I can be more clear by splitting the nomination into sections:

Three promotional images with over printing and no sources for the base images.

The images reference below, an aerial picture was taken from a Cessna 210 and then and airport was painted and airbrushed to give an idea of how the Tijuana cross-border terminal would appear when finished (produced and created by me), but then during the counter-proposal stage of negotiations between Mexico and San Diego, the image was expanded to show a modified TwinPorts rendering and at the center would be the cross-border terminal, this image (as well as the color renderings in the prior group) was published by Caltrans (California Department of Transportation) and is referenced the article.

Two air photos with superimposed images

File:Aero Charter-Nieders Tijuana cross-border terminal concept 1991a.jpg
File:Valenzuela-Nieders cross-border airport concept.jpg For both of these, the question must be asked, what is the source of the air photo that is below the added artwork? Who created the added artwork?

The next set of images was created and produced over a period of 10 years. The Mexicana rendering is in Spanish because it was presented in Mexico City and was hand drawn and was part of a letter of intent, it was the first rendering of the Tijuana cross-border terminal ever made. The Twinports proposal was done almost 2 years and the third Casey Development was computer generated four years later (and also used in the Caltrans article), all were produced and created by me as part of the promotional process.

A series of three maps with different base maps and overprinting:

File:San Diego TwinPorts airport proposal 1991L.jpg -- a unique base map, wider line widths and shading.
File:Image 1- Mexicana de Aviacion Tijuana cross-border terminal proposal 1990.jpg -- is titled & captioned in Spanish (eg: Taxiway = Pista de Taxeo & note not USA but the Spanish variant of abbreviation) on a totally different base map than others in this series.
File:Casey_Development-Nieders_Tijuana_cross-border_terminal_proposal_1996a.jpg - another unique different base map than others in this series, leading to the obvious conclusion that not all these maps were prepared by one person.

The next six images, were created by CADD, (line drawings) and printed, they were done in 1991-2 as part of the counter-proposal, the printed pages were scanned and then text added explaining the different proposals, this was created and produced by me and originally in Spanish, as for being mentioned so many times, that can be changed, but I originated the concept and kept it alive from 1990-2007, and that is why I also give names of the key players and dates from the originating concept, the negotiations, the counter-proposals, the reports, to the current Tijuana cross-border terminal footprint under construction and supplied so many references. It was not a simple project, no one wanted to spend neither the time nor effort to make this happen, and Mexico-US politics is at times very difficult to understand without presenting the background. This was a lifetime of work, it is hard not to be specific and almost all of it done at my own personal expense. I am no longer involved with this project and I hope it was not a mistake and wasted effort writing this article on the Tijuana cross-border terminal 108.202.3.119 06:04, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The following six drawings/documennts appear to be from same or similar software:

And File:GAP Tijuana airport phased master plan 2000-2015.jpg which was stated in the text of the wiki Tijuana Cross-border Terminal article: "In July, 2000, GAP published a 210-page Master Plan for the Tijuana airport (Plan Maestro del Aeropuerto de Tijuana) prepared by AENA."

I also point out that the name of this uploader appears forty-three times throughout the article and article references; possibly too close to subject and too promotional by habit. Ellin Beltz (talk) 04:09, 2 December 2014 (UTC)108.202.3.119 06:04, 2 December 2014 (UTC)Rnieders (talk) 06:16, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: for now I assume good faith but the question is not exactly who created the images but who owns the copyright. Was the contact for this a work for hire or was Rnieders an employee? If the former then it is necessary to determine whether the copyright was contracted to the commissioning organisation as is normil or was the copyright retained by the author in their contract. Corporate authorship is the usual situation for employees so the employer usually owns the copyright. Either way the uploader could have someone in authority at GAP email the OTRS Team verifying the situation and who owns the copyright. Good luck. Ww2censor (talk) 17:38, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your consideration. To clarify the issue of whether I was an employee when these images where created. From the start, I had an ownership interest in the land (Martinez Ranch) where the original cross-border terminal was suppose to built from 1990 until 1993 when the property was foreclosed during the economic recession. The working relationship was based on a "teaming effort" in which each individual contributed their value/expertise, no one was paid, each member covered their own expenses. I created the promotional material. After the foreclosure, I continued to promote the project teaming with Rodolfo Ramos Ortiz (Aero Charter) in Mexico City, and after he died in a car accident, I teamed up with Gilberto Valenzuela in Mexico City and later with Casey Development in San Diego when we were again trying to build the project in 1996 but SACSA failed to meet the acquisition deadlines and PEMA properties then acquired the new cross-border terminal site (Martinez Trust, not to be confused with Martinez Ranch). Everyone covered their own expenses, no one was paid, no LLC was created as we were all working on spec, meaning that if the project got off the ground, then a LLC would be created as was the case when the Mexican strategic partners and EGI, who finally acquired the Martinez Trust (I started the land negotiations and presented them with an 80 page booklet in Los Cabos, Mexico in 2006 which included the images in question). The Otay-Tijuana Venture LLC was created in 2008 after the acquisition of Martinez Trust to build the cross-border terminal. The initial Presidential permit application in 2000 for the Tijuana cross-border terminal was also in my name and Casey Development, again in a teaming effort and spec project, everyone works independent but towards a common goal. My designs and work always remained my property, it is what gave value to my portion in the teaming agreements that were generated over 18 years. After the acquisition the Mexican strategic partners decided to create their own terminal design and hired Ricardo Legoreta and I no longer have any interest in the project.Rnieders (talk) 18:36, 2 December 2014 (UTC).[reply]

With regards to GAP which owns the Tijuana airport, I was an employee of theirs for about 4 months in 2001 and was hired as the project manager for the project during which time I created a promotional brochure. I contacted Wikipedia:Media Copyright Questions and they made very clear I could not upload the contents nor use the promotional brochure cover as it was the property of GAP. When I resigned from GAP, GAP still owed three months worth of consulting work done before I was "hired" for which they never paid. When GAP refused to develop the project, the project then came under the direction of ASA, Mexico's airport authority. After leaving GAP, I again promoted the project independently meeting directly with ASA and that is when the U.S. State Department contacted me and asked that the project be presented at the Partnership for Prosperity. After presenting the project in Washington DC, I flew to GAP's headquarters in Guadalajara and asked them to reconsider the project but they were adamantly against the project which was reported in the San Diego Union-Tribune (Lindquist, Diane (July 23, 2002). "Otay airport terminal plan called 'dead'". San Diego Union-Tribune). When Washington DC (Partnership for Prosperity) refused ASA's request to fund the master plan for the Mexico City airport (so that Mexico could privatize meaning sell the airport), ASA dropped the Tijuana cross-border airport project. ASA then wanted nothing to do with the US, this is what I mean by the politics behind the scenes no one knows about as all these meetings were private and I was physically in all of them as I carried the project. It took a lot of effort to revive the project after that and then it was almost killed by land speculators. When the project first started in 1990, the land was at 3 million dollars, in 2008 it closed at 34.5 million. It was not a simple project. Rnieders (talk) 19:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Some of these images were previously deleted from Wikipedia as not fair use, please see the discussion page which covered

File:Mexicana de Aviacion cross-border terminal proposal 1990.jpg
File:SANDAG bi-national airport proposal 1990.jpg
File:Aero Charter cross-border terminal proposal 1991.jpg
File:San Diego TwinPorts US-Mexico airport proposal 1991.jpg
File:ASA Tijuana cross-border passenger terminal proposal 1991.jpg
File:ASA Tijuana airport expansion proposal 1992.jpg
File:Casey Development cross-border terminal proposal 1996.jpg
File:GAP Tijuana cross-border brochure cover 2001.jpg
File:GAP cross-border terminal and bridge 2001.jpg

Subsequent to that process, comments were left by Mr. Nieders on another editor's talk page which may be informative to the sources of these images: " 3 of the images I do own, the 3 others where given to me while I was involved in the negotiations and were also given to the media for promotion of the project, is that not fair use? .... Stefan2 from Sweden says they all must be deleted as they are not fair use, even though they came from public entities, such as the City of San Diego and the San Diego Association of Governments and appeared in news print. .... The images not owned by me where from promotional material and I was the project manager of the project and presented the project before the U.S. State Department..." The remainder is available here. I also have a lot of airport development background but continue to doubt that these images were the personal work of the uploader as confirmed by his own statements above. Ellin Beltz (talk) 03:05, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The images to which Stefan2 is making reference to were all taken down by my own request rnieders as they were incorrectly uploaded under fair use and that is clearly indiacted in the very link you make reference to here. I did not hide any facts from Stefan2 and stated where they came from (the ASA booklet, the Sandag booklet and the City of San Diego) I NEVER stated they were created and produced by me, on the contrary I gave reference to how I got them and who they belonged to. The reason I uploaded those picture and so stated, was I thought the reader would get a better understanding by seeing the actual images, Stefan2 stated that he felt that was not necessary and since I was not the owner, I could not use them. I agreed to that and requested that those images be taken down. I also requested that my own images be taken down as they were incorrectly uploaded under Fair Use. I then uploaded MY OWN images created in the 1990s as shown in the link here and images created during the counter-proposal process in which I wrote and produced the documents and images. Those images are the images I uploaded to Wikipedia Commons. Every airport is unique, they are based on designs which cannot be visualized only through words. I also added a large number of newspaper references as support in which both my project (Tijuana cross-border terminal) and designs were mentioned (e.g. Wall Street Journal August 1, 2001 reference 2 in the article) and my US copyright on "KeyIssues TwnPort/ASA Proposals" registered with the U.S. Copyright office TX 489 448, September 1991, which I own and produced, reference 16. I complied with Stefan2's request and suggestions, I also contacted Wikipedia:Media Copyright Questions with regard to the GAP brochure I produced while at GAP in Mexico, and they made clear I could not use any of it as GAP was the owner, and I acknowledge that. I have complied to all suggestions and requests made by Stefan2 but now my words have been taken out of context. My images and renderings were NOT produced nor created nor owned by ASA, SANDAG or the City of San Diego. So to say that my images must all be taken down because they are not fair use, ignores the fact that I complied with Stefan2's request and that I acknowledged my own images were incorrectly uploaded under Fair Use. I asked for help and clarification and complied with the suggestions because I did not understand the Wikipedia process. I then uploaded ONLY my own images under Common Use again as indicated in here, meaning I surrendered my own copyright on my own material and made them public. Now you recommend that they all have to be taken down because they are not Fair Use and give a statement taken out of contect? The Tijuana Cross-border terminal article changed as people added suggestions. As for the statement "doubt that these images were the personal work of the uploader as confirmed by his own statements above" that is simply not true and is not supported by the link here. I disclosed the source, DID NOT present the pictures of ASA, SANDAG or the City of San Diego as my own, I asked for help in correctly submitting information and now I get attacked. Making reference to the the link you suggested here, I stated "Thank you for all your help, I dug out my old files and found replacement images which I own so that there is no issue about copyrights. They were all in Spanish and my disks from 1990-3 tried to convert them to word 2010, no success, had to recreate everything." I further stated "I have also requested that all the files/images I uploaded incorrectly be deleted. I do not know if I can do it or the administrator has to. But I have found all the images which I created for the negotiations and which I own, those I will load to commons. Thank you for your guidance Rnieders (talk) 13:11, 26 August 2014 (UTC). Why was this left out when you use my words? Images are important to understanding the article. That I presented the project before the U.S. State Department, 2002, is that in doubt? That I met with Bob Filner in 1991 and presented the project, is that in doubt? Do you want me to send you the documents? Are the references in doubt or has anyone read them? Do you want to know the airport people I dealt with reference to the Tijuana cross-border terminal, e.g. BAA, Lufthansa Consulting, ADP, Flughafen Frankfurt Main AG, GE Capital? I was very specific with names, and periods and references, could one single person do that if they were not there??? Why the attacks and taking statements out of context Rnieders (talk) 15:03, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually Mr. Neiders, despite the foregoing, the one thing you have not stated is who owns the copyrights to the images. I see conflicting claims of production and ownership for a series of engineering drawings, derivative works of both air photos and 3-D drawings.

Let me add some specific points here.

(1) Oblique air photos like that are nearly impossible to get in a small plane. The image shows no distortion from front to rear suggesting it wasn't a hobby camera and hobby plane used. You say above that the photo was taken, but you do not say by who.

(2) Engineering drawings have boxes in the corners which say who produced, date, location, client name and so on. Those are absent.

(3) Multiple line styles, color backgrounds and labeling (plus information from Wikipedia captions you wrote) show that there were at least three authors of the line images.

(4) Color 3-D renderings (little airplanes and people walking) are not done by amateurs but by architects - no architectural firm's name is listed. Notice the changing reflections in the flooring between the 'pavement' render and the 'polished floor render' and you'll see this wasn't just something doodled on a napkin by an amateur.

(5) The images of the cross border terminal that look like posters also do not fit within Commons guidelines on uploads.

(6) Your statements are self-contradictory: Please see the various explanations given for File:SANDAG San Diego-Tijuana bi-national airport proposal 1990.jpg which was uploaded to commons with a claim of own work but which was previously removed from Wikipedia for no fair use. You were told you could not upload GAP images, yet here is File:GAP Tijuana airport phased master plan 2000-2015.jpg, and so on.

Reading through the vast quantity of resume information you repeat doesn't improve my understanding of just exactly who owns the copyrights to these images - originally claimed as fair use, but removed from Wikipedia due to false claims and now claimed as own work. I too could dig out old floppies from 1980s projects and make copies, that doesn't mean I own the copyright. Please just stop with the biography and the list of "famous" people you know long enough to answer the very simple question that started all this. Who owns the copyright to these images? Anything else is fluff.

As for how you wrote the Wikipedia article, that's not at issue here. Someone else started it, but you've been the major editor of a story in which you are the major player and you are cited 42 times. You added a pile of images under fair use - multiple editors tried to explain to you why they did not fit fair use and you turned around and put most if not all of these images on Commons as own work. So far we agree and I do not dispute any of that.

However, you seem to be confused as to the requirements of Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons for free hosting for your images. Please read COM:L for Commons licensing descriptions. Commons does not have "fair use"; images must be own work of uploader or properly licensed at source. I see no sources, and based on the foregoing discussions, I do not believe all these images were created by a single person. In fact based on the ever-changing series of statements of where these images came from, I'm asking all other editors to consider COM:PRP here. Ellin Beltz (talk) 15:34, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The image you use as an example from the SANDAG San Diegot-Tijuana bi-national airport proposal, the one that was deleted came from the SANDAG brochure, Stefan2 referred to it as a map. I created a different map to show the proposal, the mistake was using the same description, BUT it is not the same image. To create images, does not require engineering documentation, these were not made to scale, they were computer drawings used to show the concept. I am will respond tonight, the plane is now boarding, I am at the San Diego airport trying to respond to this. Rnieders (talk) 17:27, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The question you ask, who owns the copyright, I do. The files you keep referring to that were deleted, you can check that that after asking numerous times, I did agree with Stefan2 and then I asked that they be taken done, as also indicated in the Keizers' talk page. That you claim I simply turned around and uploaded the same files back up, is not correct. The images that I did not own, e.g. the ASA, SANDAG, City of San Diego, those I did not use again, I uploaded my line drawings, the mistake I made was using the file names again. I was told I could not use the GAP images from the booklet I created for them, I did not use them. The GAP image with the development plan 2000-2015 was not created by GAP, it was a synopsis of the 210 page master plan and was created after I left GAP and the work I did prior working for GAP and work I did on my personal time and was not paid for, is my own work. GAP did not exist until 1999, most of my work was done well before that. I use GAP as part of the image descriptor, just as Aero Charter is used in the image description, just as Valenzuela is used in the image description. That I know "famous people," very few people outside of of the Mexican government know who these people were, but they were the key people. While you have a tremendous amount of experience with the Wikipedia process, I do not. I uploaded the images incorrectly and admitted that, asked for help, and tried to upload them correctly, I stated where those images came from, that is what started this process of "doubt", I re-uploaded only the images I own under common use, the ones I own and have used from 1990-2007. They were not engineering drawings, they are line drawings to show a concept. Please read the Wall Street Journal article which is linked (August 1, 2001). "San Diego Airport May Cross Border". Error: journal= not stated. Wall Street Journal. Retrieved on 17 November 2014. also found in the the Tijuana cross-border terminal article, it is the second second reference. The Wall Street Journal is not a tabloid and the article may clarify some of your doubts, because whatever I write you will suspect as you have already asked "all other editors to consider COM:PRP". The Wikipedia editor who created the page,Keizers, lives near San Diego, he can review what I have done. I will be back in San Diego December 26.Rnieders (talk) 14:17, 4 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: I think that the entire discussion below misses an important point -- we do not know who User:Rnieders actually is. These have had enough public exposure so that it is clear to me that they require OTRS licenses, probably from several different parties. Several also fail [[COM:ADVERT]. . Jim . . . . (Jameslwoodward) (talk to me) 18:50, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Restored some per this request. Natuur12 (talk) 19:26, 21 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by Rnieders

Files uploaded by Rnieders (talk · contribs)

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