Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Wandbemalung Katholische Grundschule Windthorststraße

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Files in Category:Wandbemalung Katholische Grundschule Windthorststraße

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There are two problems here:

1) I'm not so sure that German freedom of panorama does apply here. The images show a mural on the side of a school building in Germany. The photos were taken from inside a schoolyard. Whether this schoolyard is "public" as far as FoP is concerned is questionable. It's not like a public park or cemetery that is intended for everyone, it's intended for the use of the schoolchildren, even if the school (like in this case) is run by the city. There's a German legal phrase, “dem Gemeingebrauch gewidmet” (dedicated to public use), and apparently that would need to be the case for FoP to apply. I'm not so sure it is.

2) Two of the images, File:Wuppertal Langerfeld - Katholische Grundschule Windthorststraße 05 ies.jpg and File:Wuppertal Langerfeld Krtek.jpg, show a derivative work of a cartoon mole, Krtek, created by artist Zdeněk Miler, who died in 2011. See the discussion at Commons:Deletion requests/File:Wuppertal Langerfeld - Katholische Grundschule Windthorststraße 05 ies.jpg. Even if freedom of panorama were to apply, there is still the question if these two files are copyvios of this cartoon character.

Rosenzweig τ 09:36, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about the artist's heirs, but he himself defended his copyright quite vigorously in 2005, see [1]. --Rosenzweig τ 12:18, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Keep Freedom of Panorama is Freedom of Panorama. Gruss --Nightflyer (talk) 12:20, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, obviously. But is it applicable here? See my questions in the first paragraph above. --Rosenzweig τ 12:40, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Nightflyer: German freedom of panorama is limited in terms of photographer's location. A photo of a public monument (for example) taken by its photographer from the street is covered by German FOP, but a photo of the same work by the same photographer but he shot it from his apartment block is no longer covered and the sculptor has the right to control his distribution of his photo. Similarly, as Rosenzweig pointed below, the mural was taken from inside the school yard, not dedicated for public use (only use by students). Hence the artist or his heirs can sucxessfully file lawsuits against photographers who commercially used their photos of his work taken from inside the school yard. But it becomes a different case if the photo was taken from outside the fence. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 08:15, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Keep All these paintings are visible from a public street. -- Ies (talk) 15:25, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just writing Keep or FoP-Germany is not helpful because it ignores the question of the very first paragraph: Is freedom of panorama applicable here? @Ies: Were the photos also taken from a public street? --Rosenzweig τ 15:31, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've looked a bit further with OpenStreetMap and Google Earth, also File:Wuppertal Langerfeld - Katholische Grundschule Windthorststraße 02 ies.jpg. The murals are actually located on the back of a building that accd. to OSM is a building of the local Fire Department (or the volunteer firefighters, to be exact). It's just out of frame in File:Wuppertal Langerfeld - Katholische Grundschule Windthorststraße 02 ies.jpg, it would be immediately to the right. Approx. at 51°16′24″N 7°14′52″E / 51.27341°N 7.24769°E / 51.27341; 7.24769. The photos were clearly taken not from the street, but from inside the schoolyard. Per Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Germany#Public: It is important to note that only the view from the public place is privileged: If, for instance, a statue is located next to a public street, photographs of the statue taken from that street enjoy freedom of panorama, but photographs of the very same statue taken from a non-public spot do not. and Whether a place is "public" for purposes of § 59(1) does not depend on whether it is public or private property. Instead, the question turns on its actual accessibility, which, according to the prevailing view, needs to be such that one can infer a (sufficient) dedication to the public. Against this backdrop, many academic and extra-judicial commentators argues that publicly accessible station halls, subway stations, and departure halls fall short of the "public" requirement because they are not in the same way dedicated to the public as streets, ways, or public open spaces. Now is this schoolyard "dedicated to the public"? From the map and photos, it doesn't look like it, there's walls and fences all around, and the only access is from the one street in front of the school. --Rosenzweig τ 16:19, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Keep. Both from the images themselves and the satellite imagery that Rosenzweig provided, this looks like it was taken from a parking lot. It is noteworthy that nearly all the examples which are excluded from "public" in German law (according to COM:FOP Germany) are covered or semi-covered areas. According to 59(1) (translated on COM:FOP Germany) explicitly included areas are "public streets, ways, or public open spaces". A parking lot is not a street, but I believe it fits into "ways" or "public open spaces". IronGargoyle (talk) 19:44, 14 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
File:Wuppertal Langerfeld - Katholische Grundschule Windthorststraße 04 ies.jpg shows the place the photos were taken from. This is not "a parking lot", it's the schoolyard. --Rosenzweig τ 12:10, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I see asphalt, entrances to an building, and a distinct lack of playground equipment. Even if it was a schoolyard, kids go to play in schoolyards outside of school hours all the time. So why would a school yard not count as a public open space? IronGargoyle (talk) 14:42, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The place you see in File:Wuppertal Langerfeld - Katholische Grundschule Windthorststraße 04 ies.jpg directly continues the right side of File:Wuppertal Langerfeld - Katholische Grundschule Windthorststraße 02 ies.jpg, only that File:Wuppertal Langerfeld - Katholische Grundschule Windthorststraße 02 ies.jpg was taken from the street outside the fence, while File:Wuppertal Langerfeld - Katholische Grundschule Windthorststraße 04 ies.jpg was taken inside the fence (at roughly the coordinates I've given above, that's the approximate camera location). And I've discussed the "dedication to the public" problem in the paragraph above: From the map and photos, that schoolyard has walls and fences all around, and the only access is from the one street in front of the school. While it may be publicly accessible at times (when the gate is open), it's questionable if it is "dedicated to the public" the same way a street is. Now walls and gates are not an absolute impediment, graveyards routinely have them and are closed at night and yet they are routinely considered places where German FOP is applicable because they are seen as places "dedicated to the public". A schoolyard however is meant for the pupils of that school, not really the general public. --Rosenzweig τ 18:37, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I see no evidence of a fence from any of the satellite imagery or pictures themselves. There are trees overhanging the entrance from the road and a building immediately behind the paved area next to the church. IronGargoyle (talk) 19:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The fence is clearly visible in File:Wuppertal Langerfeld - Katholische Grundschule Windthorststraße 02 ies.jpg. And where do you see a church in any of the pictures? There is a church (St. Raphael) to the Southwest, but it's on the other side of the road street, not visible in any of the images, and it's not where the images were taken. --Rosenzweig τ 21:12, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. I meant to say school. I know it's a Catholic school and my brain just made the automatic association to call it a church. IronGargoyle (talk) 01:29, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the files again, I have to correct one statement: You can see the church in File:Wuppertal Langerfeld - Katholische Grundschule Windthorststraße 03 ies.jpg. That one is taken from inside the schoolyard behind the school building, looking the other way towards the street. You can see the fence between the schoolyard and the street, the church is visible in the background. In the right part of the image, you can see the wall closing off the schoolyard in the background. The back of the firefighters building with the mural (closing off the schoolyard in that direction) would be to the left in this image (but is not visible). And you can see a small part of the wall closing off the schoolyard to the east in the background of File:Wuppertal Langerfeld - Katholische Grundschule Windthorststraße 04 ies.jpg and another small part in the background of File:Wuppertal Langerfeld - Katholische Grundschule Windthorststraße 02 ies.jpg. --Rosenzweig τ 01:55, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Got it. I do note that the fence seems to have a permanent entrance to the street (not gated). See my comment below about public use to drop kids off at school. IronGargoyle (talk) 15:41, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
 Delete, clearly taken from private property where FoP does not apply. --Krd 12:47, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But private property is not what matters. It matters if that area is dedicated to public access. The satellite imagery seems to suggest that the paved area with access to the school entrances is connected to the nearby road. IronGargoyle (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not dedicated to public "access", but dedicated to the public public use. As in: general public. --Rosenzweig τ 21:12, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
While there is a fence, there is also a permanent entrance in the fence. The general public can and will use the space for other purposes which are different than the student uses. For example, parents will drop off and pick up their children from school. The uses that occur do not have to be unlimited. For example, many uses of a cemetery are prohibited. IronGargoyle (talk) 15:33, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if it's really important for the "dedicated to the public" (or not) question, but there is no "permanent entrance" in the fence. There are two gates. They are opened on the photo, but both have closing sections that are ajar in the photo (look for the handles). --Rosenzweig τ 23:58, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, yes, I see it now. IronGargoyle (talk) 01:03, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: per discussion. Deleted the category as well, which is now empty. --Ellywa (talk) 09:48, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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