Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Traffic Signs Manual (UK) (Volumes)

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Files in Category:Traffic Signs Manual (UK) (Volumes)

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During enquires into the status of Rail Alphabet and BR double arrows logo, an e-mail back from the National Archives, raised concern that the Transport typeface and certain related materials might not be Crown Copyright (with respect to additional design rights), despite them appearing on a large number of road signs in the UK, and being practically ubiquitous.

This nomination is thus on the precautionary principle unless someone higher up then me is willing to to get an official OTRS from the Department of Transport and National Archives.

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 11:09, 22 May 2017 (UTC) [reply]

On hold - clarification has been sought from relevant parties.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 13:29, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Unless explicit OTRS provided confirming relevant design elements (i.e the diagrams in the Schedule) explicitly and entirely crown copyright and thus covered by OGL etc., Furthermore the response to emails in OTRS tickets, 2017052210014402, 2017052210016428 seemed to indicate an incompatibility between OGL and Creative Commons licensing, and a need to check the status, despite the relevant document source indicating OGL status. I suggest you direct further concerns in the direction of the following contacts (psi@nationalarchives.gsi.gov.uk, TRAFFIC.SIGNS@dft.gsi.gov.uk), because I have so far had no response from the latter on the issue raised.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 00:36, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: The copyright issue does not exist, for two very important reasons. The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act (1988) is quite clear that regardless of the copyright within a typeface, no copyright infringement occurs when the typeface is used to create imagery, such as the files listed in the deletion review, so the underlying OGL licence is valid and no other copyright exists in these images. Additionally, typeface protection in the UK, also under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act (1988) is for a maximum of 25 years, Transport font pre-dates this, but out of an abundance of caution, assuming a new copyright may have been created when the new act came into force, 25 years from 1988 takes us to 2013 (or 1 January 2014 as a likely date) when the Transport font (once again) passed into the public domain. I'm closing this DR for those two reasons. Design Rights, if they were to exist, would not apply to road signs due to their commonplace nature at the commencement of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act (1988) which specifically excludes commonplace designs. --Nick (talk) 20:16, 26 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Files in Category:Traffic Signs Manual (UK) (Volumes)

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DR requested as these originated with Highways England and not DfT directly.. Even though that Agency was mailed around the time of upload there's still been no confirmation that these are in fact as OGL, as good faith would sugggest. Per Fae's comments about OGL applicability to documents otherwise marked Crown Copyright, these will have to be removed without a further clarification or direct confirmation of OGL status.

ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 23:43, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Keep: I don't understand the reference to Highways England. The title page of each volume lists "Department for Transport/Highways Agency", but while Highways England is the successor to the Highways Agency, there's an important difference between them: the Highways Agency was part of the Department for Transport (and hence a government department), while Highways England is a separate company. In any case, the files appear on https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/traffic-signs-manual, which says at the bottom "All content is available under the Open Government Licence v3.0, except where otherwise stated". In the absence of some other statement, the manuals are under OGLv3. The only possible problem is that Part 2 include the TSO logo, which is probably not covered by OGLv3. I think it's below the threshold of originality, but if it isn't then maybe it should be removed from the file. --bjh21 (talk) 12:26, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
See Page 3 of the document ( which is the pre OGL crown waiver) That's the issue related to what Fae raised on something else. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 09:49, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@ShakespeareFan00: You're quite right; I hadn't spotted that. The copyright page of each volume says "For any other use of this material, apply for a Value Added Click-Use Licence" and that obviously means we can't rely on the blanket OGL statement for gov.uk and we need to look deeper. The Value Added Click-Use Licence stopped being issued on 2009-12-01 and "Most information that was previously regarded as value added [could then] be re-used under the PSI Click-Use Licence."[1] The exceptions were the members of the Information Fair Traders Scheme[2], which didn't include any of the organisations mentioned on the title page. So from 2009-12-01, these volumes of the Traffic Signs Manual could be licensed under the PSI Click-Use Licence. The PSI Click-Use Licence was then superseded by the OGL, and "Any information subject to Crown copyright that was available for re-use under the PSI Click-Use Licence may now be re-used under the OGL."[3] That seems to me to add up to a definitive statement that these volumes of the Traffic Signs Manual are now licensed under OGL. --bjh21 (talk) 12:25, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Bjh21: Thanks. If you could also review the current 2018 set on.gov.uk as well, much appreciated, because they would be something nice to have on Commons/Wikisource if possible. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 12:56, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've updated the "Permission" section on each file to summarise my reasoning above. --bjh21 (talk) 15:14, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Withdrawn but without objection if it gets re-nominated at a later date.ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:10, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: Withdrawn by nominator. --Missvain (talk) 22:44, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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