Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Statue of Taras Shevchenko, Romny

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Files in Category:Statue of Taras Shevchenko, Romny

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Violation of sculptor's copyright. Ukraine does not allow commercial freedom of panorama. The 1918 sculpture was designed by sculptor І. П. Кавалерідзе (died 1978) according to w:uk:Пам'ятники Ромен. This image under commercial-type Creative Commons license is a copyright violation. Since this sculpture is already in public domain in the United States, the images can be undeleted on January 1, 2049 (70+1 years after the sculptor's death).

JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 08:22, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Keep The source country of this monument is Ukrainian State (and the Ukrainian State kept controlling the city for 30 days, the monument being installed on 27 October and the Ukrainian State losing control of the city mid-December), which, as far as I could find out, was not a part to any copyright treaties, and neither Ukraine nor any other country recognises itself as its successor. As a result, a norm similar to {{PD-RusEmpire}} should apply. This monument is pretty much THE only prominent structure built during times of the Ukrainian State (which existed for just 7 months, entirely during wartime), so this question never arose before — NickK (talk) 19:10, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @NickK how does it applies when the template provides a cutoff date of "7 November 1917", a year before the year of this sculptural work? JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 22:30, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @JWilz12345: I don't say the norm from {{PD-RusEmpire}}, but a similar one does. The logic in {{PD-RusEmpire}} applies to works created in Russian Empire, a recognised state that was not party to any copyright treaty and has no legal successor. This sculptural work was created in the Ukrainian State, a different recognised state that similarly was not party to any copyright treaty and also has no legal successor. This work is pretty unique because a) the state was very short-lived and existed only in wartime, b) most works from 1918 are already in public domain by death of their authors, c) very few of them survived (many were deliberately destroyed by the Soviets), which probably explains why this problem was never discussed before — NickK (talk) 22:42, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @NickK perhaps the state's successor was USSR (Soviet Union) (?). COM:FOP Soviet Union hints that USSR had a non-commercial FoP that was inherited in almost all of current successor states like Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan et cetera. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 22:45, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @JWilz12345: USSR absolutely was not the successor of the Ukrainian State. The Ukrainian State lost a war to the Ukrainian People's Republic, its government emigrated and continued a monarchical dynasty as the Hetman movement (uk:Гетьманський рух). The Hetman movement government-in-exile ceased to exist in 1957 when its last representative died, and it had no legal successor. (At the same time, Ukraine is the legal successor to the Ukrainian People's Republic, and USSR deliberately did not proclaim itself legal successor of any state) — NickK (talk) 22:55, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @NickK then Ukrainian laws apply. Just the similar situation: non-commercial FoP. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 23:00, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @JWilz12345: Can you please explain why Ukrainian laws apply here but not in case of {{PD-RusEmpire}}? — NickK (talk) 23:02, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @NickK the cutoff date itself which is a year before this monument (from 1918). Only works made or published before November 7, 1917 are applicable to the Russian Empire P.D. license. Also, like what you said, Ukrainian People'S Republic won over the war you mentioned, taking Ukrainian State. Then, the successor of Ukrainian People's Republic is Ukraine itself. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 23:08, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @JWilz12345: I don't understand your logic. The Russian Empire lost to (among others) the Ukrainian People's Republic in 1917, the Russian Empire government emigrated and no modern state recognises itself as its successor. Russian Empire works are in public domain. The Ukrainian State lost to the Ukrainian People's Republic in 1918, the Ukrainian State government emigrated and no modern state recognises itself as its successor. Still you think that Ukrainian State works are not in public domain. What is the difference between these two cases? There is nothing magic in the 1917 date from copyright point of view, it is the date of the revolution that the Russian Empire lost. The same date for the Ukrainian State is 1918 — NickK (talk) 23:36, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @NickK haven't you notice the cutoff date on the template? It just means it is invalid for works made after November 7, 1917. And this monument is a 1918 work, that is no longer bound for PD-RusEmpire template. Ukrainian State lost to Ukrainian People's Republic (which was succeeded by Ukraine), so the latter is the successor state and copyright rules of the latter apply. It is highly probable that commercial reusers of this monument will lose in front of Ukrainian courts (with the heirs of the sculptor winning). JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 23:56, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @JWilz12345: International law just does not work this way. Winning a war does not mean becoming a legal successor. USSR won a war against the Russian Empire, but opted not to become its legal successor, instead the government of Russian Empire continued in exile. Ukrainian People's Republic won a war against the Ukrainian State, also did not become its legal successor, instead the government of Ukrainian State continued in exile. USSR eventually won a war against Ukrainian People's Republic, again did not become its legal successor, the government of Ukrainian People's Republic continued in exile but eventually signed an agreement with Ukraine recognising legal succession. Ukrainian State never had such an agreement with Ukraine, nor with any other state. It is in exactly the same position as Russian Empire: had no copyright treaty, has no legal successor.
    On your second point, there is no difference from the point of view of Ukrainian copyright law between works created in Russian Empire and works created in Ukrainian State because Ukraine is not a successor to either. What matters for Commons is the country of origin (in this case: not a part to any copyright treaty) and the US (in this case: in public domain) — NickK (talk) 00:09, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@NickK: So we're saying that his heirs lose on out on copyright protection for this statue because it basically has no country of origin anymore? —holly {chat} 21:47, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Holly Cheng: Yes, and even more. Not just 'no country of origin anymore' but the country of origin essentially was not a part to any copyright treaties and probably even never had a copyright law (not the most important law amid World War I). It is thus unlikely that at the time of creation this work could benefit from any copyright protection, and as such it is also out of scope of URAA or any other restoration of copyright protection. Just like {{PD-RusEmpire}} where this approach seems to be a longstanding practice of Wikimedia Commons — NickK (talk) 22:09, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@NickK you may want to create a template for statues as well as photographs that may fall under this PD status. Perhaps {{PD-Ukrainian State}} (valid for works made between April 29, 1918 and December 14, 1918). JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 22:37, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@JWilz12345: I think this is the only notable work so I would rather use {{PD-because}}. I tried to find another one, the best candidate was Category:Greek church in Yevpatoria but it was built on 30 June 1918 in a very short-lived en:Crimean Regional Government (and is in PD anyway). There are a few more that were inaugurated in 1918 but on unknown dates. Generally the Ukrainian State was not known for erecting anything famous, and most of what they did manage to built was destroyed by the Communists anyway — NickK (talk) 00:05, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I took a stab at creating {{PD-Ukrainian State/en}}. It could be useful if there are any photos from this period uploaded. —holly {chat} 00:13, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: I'm going to accept NickK's explaination here that this is public domain. --Abzeronow (talk) 17:56, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: per discussion. —holly {chat} 18:09, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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