Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Die fünf Kontinente (Jochen Lempert)

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Files in Category:Die fünf Kontinente (Jochen Lempert)

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Freedom of panorama does not apply to interior shots in Germany. Architect was Jochen Lempert, who is still alive.

Lukas Beck (talk) 14:08, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Keep Dieselbe Antwort. Kein Zusammenhang zwischen FOP und 70-Jahres-Frist, öffentliche Unterführung, führe die Diskussion um die Panoramafreiheit bitte an einem angemessenen Ort. NNW 17:53, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Es besteht kein direkter Zusammenhang zwischen Panoramafreiheit und 70-Jahres-Frist. Diese Aussage ist grundsätzlich falsch. Wenn die Panoramafreiheit nicht gilt, was hier meiner Ansicht nach der Fall ist, müssen wir uns an der 70-Jahres-Frist orientieren um die Bilder möglichst früh wieder herzustellen, nämlich eben dann, wenn der Architekt länger als 70 Jahre tot ist. Lukas Beck (talk) 18:03, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nein, in nicht-öffentlichen Innenräumen dürfen wir dann immer noch nicht fotografieren. NNW 18:23, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Natürlich darfst du in nicht-öffentlichen Innenräumen fotografieren und die Bilder sogar veröffentlichen, wenn die 70-jährige Urheberrechtsfrist abgelaufen ist. Lukas Beck (talk) 19:01, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Keep So wie dort und dort und dort. Ich halte das Verhalten des Benutzers für Projektstörung. Bitte suche die Klärung an allgemeinem Ort, und verschone uns mit Beiträgen bar jeder Orts, Rechts- und Sachkenntnis. (Jochen Lempert ist kein Architekt, er hat nur die Fotos geschaffen.) Die Hinterglasbilder befinden sich nicht IM U-Bahnhof, sondern in einer Unterführung zur gegenüberliegenden Straßenseite.

Die Freie und Hansestadt Hamburg führte in Beantwortung einer parlamentarischen Anfrage das besagte Kunstwerk 2018 in einer Liste Kunstwerke im öffentlichen Raum auf (Drucksache 21/13978, S. 12). Explizit heißt es darin, die zuständige Behörde hat eine umfangreiche Inventarisierung von 1.428 Kunstwerken im öffentlichen Raum in Hamburg abgeschlossen. Im Rahmen dieser Inventarisierung wurden nur "Kunstwerke im eigentlichen Sinne erfasst, soweit sie bekannt und zugänglich waren, keine Denkmäler, Brunnen, Gedenksteine, Bauschmuck oder Findling". Diese Kunstwerke sind mit Steuergeldern angeschafft worden und befinden sich im Besitz der Stadt Hamburg bzw. von öffentlichen Gesellschaften der Stadt (SAGA, HVV). Wenn die Eigentümerin amtlich festgestellt, dass es sich um öffentlich zugängliche Kunstwerke handelt, dann reicht mir das aus. Dem Antragsteller steht es frei, bei der Kulturbehörde um eine Änderung dieser Einschätzung nachzusuchen. Hat Benutzer Lukas Beck eine Handlungsvollmacht von Jochen Lempert? Das würde bei einem solchen Vortrag sicher helfen.

TL;DR German law applies, freedom of panorama permits taking photographs of art works which are permanently located in a public place. A public transport like a subway is included in the definition of such public place. Furthermore, the artwork in question was bought in 2007 by the city of Hamburg, which still owns the piece. In a 2018 parliamentary report, the artwork was classified by the city of Hamburg as being "Kunst im öffentlichen Raum", art in a public place. --Minderbinder (talk) 11:09, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Delete Per Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Germany "many academic and extra-judicial commentators argue that publicly accessible station halls, subway stations, and departure halls fall short of the "public" requirement because they are not in the same way dedicated to the public as streets, ways, or public open spaces." So there's zero justification to keep the images since the artwork depicted in them isn't located in a place that is considered by legal experts to be "public." Any arguments otherwise are clearly nonsense. Same goes for the last commenters claim that the artwork is public domain because the Cultural Authority of Hamburg said they are in a public place. It should be obvious to anyone who is being half good faithed about this that "cultural authorities" are not legal bodies, courts, and therefore do not get to determine when or in what instances FOP laws apply. Heck, I can almost guarantee that they didn't even consult lawyers when making their assessment. "Cultural authorities" never do. Why would they? Not like they are the ones who uploaded the images to Commons either. So their opinion has absolutely no bearing on this what-so-ever. At least unless they own the copyright to the work in question, but there's zero evidence they do. The person who did upload the images is responsible for making sure they followed the relevant guidelines and laws when doing so though, and they clearly haven't. So there's no reason to keep the files. --Adamant1 (talk) 06:26, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The artwork in question is situated inside the dedicated public underpass underneath Koppelstraße. That underpath is connected to the open air subway station Hagenbecks Tierpark, but the artwork itself has got nothing to do with the subway station. The situation is similar to Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:U-Bahnhof Steinstraße (Hamburg), except here we don't even have a closed tunnel, but a partial roof over the stairways. A clear keep. --Minderbinder (talk) 20:41, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Where's the evidence it's a "dedicated public underpass"? The difference between this and Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:U-Bahnhof Steinstraße (Hamburg) is that in the later case someone eventually came along with proof that it was legally designated as a public right of way, which I don't see anyone here doing. You certainly haven't. Just because someone in a random parliamentary report said the work is located in a public place doesn't mean the actual path is a legally designated public underpass either. --Adamant1 (talk) 20:48, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Have you ever been to Hamburg, or are you just trolling? I am sure you will follow up with another rant, and then another, as nauseam. I have a feeling your block log will get longer soon. Carry on, then. —Minderbinder (talk) 21:12, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So you don't have any evidence its a legally designated public underpass then? Thought not. Have fun with the personal attacks though. I'm sure the closing admistrator will dexide to keep the image because I was blocked once lmao. --Adamant1 (talk) 21:53, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What a nonsense discussion - of course the entry to an underground station is a "legally designated public underpass". --Reinhard Kraasch (talk) 22:20, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: per nomination. .     Jim . . . (Jameslwoodward) (talk to me) 20:28, 4 August 2023 (UTC) Kept: no, sorry to overrule here, but this is clearly covered by German freedom of panorama. --Reinhard Kraasch (talk) 22:18, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reopened. I probably should not have closed the DR. It clearly rests on a subtlety in the wording of the German law. I don't read German and while Google does a wonderful job almost all of the time, I don't trust it with subtleties like this one. .     Jim . . . (Jameslwoodward) (talk to me) 13:21, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: I'll trust the two Hamburg users here, who apparently know the place, that the passage is not actually part of the railway station and a public path and thus meets the German fop definition of an öffentlichen Wegen, Straßen oder Plätzen even if it is below the ground. While (per de:Panoramafreiheit) there is no consensus about this question in the legal commentary literature (some are in favor, others opposed), I'm not aware of any case law / court decision contradicting this. So if there is one, now or in the future, re-nominate the files if necessary. --Rosenzweig τ 09:41, 29 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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