Commons:Deletion requests/Files by Arthur Rackham

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This deletion debate is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Files by Arthur Rackham

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Arthur Rackham was from England. He illustrated books until his death on 6 September 1939. His illustrations are subject to European Union copyright law, not US copyright law, and the copyright on them will not expire until the end of the year 70 years after his death, that is the end of 2009; they will become free (and eligible for Template:PD-old) on 1 January 2010. All images in these categories (Category:Arthur Rackham and its subcategory Category:Rackham´s Wagner) and on these pages (Arthur Rackham and Siegfried), and consequently these categories and pages, should not exist on Commons until 1 January 2010, unless we have proof that he or his heirs relinquished their rights.   — Jeff G. (talk|contribs) 04:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Those images were first published in the United States. Thus they are US works and the copyright has expired in the United States. This is sufficient for Wikimedia Commons. They are, of course, also English works and the copyright has not expired in England - or rather, it did expire and was then restored. This is, of course, unfortunate, but it doesn't prevent us from having the images here. Haukurth 15:40, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep any illustrations which were first published in the US; Delete anything first published in the UK. I don't know how to establish this, but if someone can do so, then let us keep it straight. Patstuart 17:51, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    All the images I've uploaded were published in London by William Heinemann and in New York by Doubleday, Page in 1910 (Rhinegold, Valyrie) and 1911 (Siegfried, Götterdämmerung). If you check the front of the books you'll see both publishers and cities listed, I assume that means they were published simultaneously on both sides of the pond. Haukurth 18:03, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, those images which include year of publication in the US and which are tagged with Template:PD-1923, Template:PD-US-no notice, Template:PD-US-not renewed, or Template:PD-old-50 are exempt from this request; the rest are assumed to still be copyrighted in England through the end of 2009.   — Jeff G. (talk|contribs) 21:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It appears all these images were published simultaneously in the US and UK. (US copyright law considers publication "simultaneous" if done within 30 days of each other.) The Wikipedia article w:Rule of the shorter term says that the EU requires its members to accept this rule for non-EU countries, so I assume the UK considers a work PD if its copyright has expired in the US. Therefore I believe these works to be PD. . . but I'll ask for a second opinion. Quadell (talk) 15:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not in this case. Having been published simultaneously in the U.S. and in the UK makes these images both UK and U.S. works. Hence, in the UK, this is a UK work, and thus no rule of the shorter term ever triggers in the UK for these. (In fact, throughout the whole EU.) Lupo 16:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Corollary: since these are simultaneously published they're UK works and U.S. works at the same time. That means that the UK will treat them as UK works (life+70), and the U.S. will treat them as U.S. works. Thus copyrighted in the UK until the end of 2009. Delete all, and move those tagged {{PD-1923}} or {{PD-US}}, {{PD-US-no notice}}, {{PD-US-not renewed}}, or {{PD-old-50}} back to en-WP. Tag 'em over there as {{PD-US-1923-abroad}} or add {{Do not move to Commons}}, as appropriate. Lupo 16:16, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • What about Das Rheingold, Die Walküre and Siegfried? I put a lot of effort into those galleries and I don't think they would survive on en:Wikipedia. I guess I might put them in my userspace over there. But I still don't see why these need to be deleted. They're US works and they are in the public domain in the US. I thought that would always be enough for Commons. Haukurth 09:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • They're U.S. works for the U.S., but they're UK works for the UK. That makes them copyrighted in the UK (source country) and also in the rest of the EU. :-( They would not survive as gallery pages in mainspace at en-WP, but they could survive as categories. We've done that before, see e.g. en:Category:Edmund Dulac. Lupo 10:34, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • It just seems rather arbitrary. If they'd been first published just in the US, then their copyright status in Europe (and more or less everywhere) would be just the same. But in that case we'd allow them here? Anyway, those captions at the gallery pages took me a while to make because I had to read the operas to figure out the context for each picture. I never got around to the fourth opera. Categories don't handle captions very well. Haukurth 10:47, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • Afterthought: Maybe they'd even survive as gallery pages at en-WP. I remember nobody complained about some gallery pages on some Polish painter. I just can't remember which page it was... if I dig hard enough, I'll be able to find it again. I noticed that in the context of some FP discussion over at en-WP, about a year or so ago. Lupo 10:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Okay, this looks like a job for a bot. Quadell (talk) 04:42, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Do you know anyone at en-WP running a "move-back bot"? User:Bryan can sometimes do it with his bots, but it can still be quite a lot of work since he's not an admin at en-WP and thus can upload locally there only if the images are deleted here first... which may create problems because of the CommonsDelinker, who's gonna remove uses of the images then. (We have other such deletion requests, for instance this one.) Lupo 07:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • I guess nobody ever reads documentation. If the deletion summary contains the string "no-orgullobot", the image will not be orphaned.
            • Making a general movebackbot is quite hard, since there are so many different cases... some need to have a template replaced, others need a template added... and how to know which images are actually needed to be moved back? Anyway, I have some framework on User:BryanBot/movebackbot.py. -- Bryan (talk to me) 16:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • At least one image has already been deleted. - EurekaLott 20:01, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I still think these deletions are a very weird exercise. The images, indeed, are not in the public domain in the UK. Fair enough. And we want images to be PD in their countries of origin to safeguard use by local Wikipedias. Sounds reasonable. But moving the images to English Wikipedia is a very weird result of this logic. It's not as if the English Wikipedia is any less a UK project than the Commons is! In fact, it is to a larger extent a UK project. We'll also want to move the whole thing back here in less than two years. Haukurth 17:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if you prefer not to have them moved to en-WP... we can also just delete them here and restore them in two years. We'll just have to record it somewhere, so it won't be forgotten. Lupo 19:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd prefer a temporary move to en-WP to outright deletion. But I still don't think this makes much sense. Haukurth 10:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kept. I'm using my discretion here, as it's clear that according to the strict letter of our policies these should be deleted until the end of 2009 when they will be allowed back again. I take the view, however, that the huge effort involved in transferring them to Wikipedia, keeping the gallery together, and transferring them all back again would be out of proportion to the benefit (if any) to be gained by such an exercise. Some of these images have been here for two years or more and several are widely used; nobody has complained and it seems hightly unlikely that anyone will do so now since the images are PD in the US already, and in the UK they are in the last 21 months of their 90-year or so copyright period. In the unlikely event of a complaint, the issue can be re-addressed. MichaelMaggs 20:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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