Commons:Deletion requests/File:UNRA sl.jpg

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

File:UNRA sl.jpg

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We need a better source than "Nazi propaganda image" and also some evidence of actual publication before 1951 to justify the {{PD-Ukraine}} tag. If this is not provided, the image should be deleted per the precautionary principle. Rosenzweig τ 08:27, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This image can be found also on scholarly sources like this one.[1] Mhorg (talk) 10:07, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So it was published in 2014? That is not before 1951. --Rosenzweig τ 12:29, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The photo of the signs on the arch is reprinted in the book "Stepan Bandera, The Life and Afterlife of a Ukrainian Nationalist, Fascism, Genocide, and Cult" written by Grzegorz Rossolinski-Liebe, published by Columbia University Press in 2014. The archival photo was authenticated and provided to the author by Marco Carynnyk. Marco Carynnyk - currently Chair of Ukranian Studies at the University of Toronto - is an internationally recognized scholar in matters related to the Holocaust, with a specialization in the genocidal incidents perpetrated in eastern Poland and western Ukraine/Galicia 1929-1947. 70.26.83.246 16:00, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And what does all that have to do with copyright? --Rosenzweig τ 17:21, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The photo is from before 1951 and the reproduction of a photo itself (only 2-dimensional) is not copyrighted. --Treck08 (talk) 12:54, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See fig. 19 on page 199 in Grzegorz Rossolinski: „The Life and Afterlife of a Ukrainian Nationalist: Fascism, Genocide, and Cult“ (dissertation, 2014, ISBN 978-3-8382-0686-8, ISBN 978-3-8382-0604-2), review on hsozkult.de. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Treck08 (talk • contribs) 13:47, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
All of that is still no evidence at all for publication before 1951. --Rosenzweig τ 13:59, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You would like to say, that there's a „Heil Hitler!“ in the today's Ukraine after 1951? After WW II, Zhovkva was part of the soviet union, first, what they did after the victory over the nazis: They smashed all the nazi-shit. Zhovkva was liberated by the troops of the Red Army on July 23, 1944. That was before 1951. --Treck08 (talk) 14:17, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You clearly don't understand at all. It's not about when the photograph was taken. It's about when it was first published and about solid evidence for that first publication. --Rosenzweig τ 14:54, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The file is on wikimedia since 2012. There was never a problem, until you tried to see one. At other files, you aren't so rigorous. --Treck08 (talk) 17:09, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The book from 2011 ISBN 9789637730610 (ushmm.org) used the photo as title, source see last page 280: from “http://www.vilnaghetto.com/gallery2/v/shoah/album38/Ukrainians_Welcome_Hitler.jpg.html” (archive.org). --Treck08 (talk) 18:58, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
2011 is still not before 1951. --Rosenzweig τ 11:00, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - We need a better source than "Nazi propaganda image (??) - nonsense. This is not copyrighted, it's from 1941 Żółkiew, occupied Poland (today Zhovka Ukraine) The photograph is a public domain since it's older than 70 years. Refer to Polish Copy Rights. - GizzyCatBella (talk) 08:43, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@GizzyCatBella: If we wanted to use a tag like {{PD-Poland}}, we'd need some evidence that either a) the photographer is Polish or b) that the photo was published for the first time, before May 23rd, 1994 and without a clear copyright notice, in Poland or simultaneously in Poland and abroad. Or else some evidence that the known (Polish) author died over 70 years ago, or that it actually is an anonymous/pseudonymous (Polish) work and was first made public over 70 years ago (Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Poland). Do you have any evidence for these circumstances? If yes, please do tell. --Rosenzweig τ 11:00, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

According to Rossolinski-Liebe who printed this picture in 2014 in his book Stepan Bandera (fig. 19, p. 222)[2] it was "courtesy of Marco Carynnyk". Carynnyk is a Toronto based scholar who worked on “The Pogroms of June-July 1941”.[3] Unfortunately we are not given information about where he got this photograph from. There were many people taking photos in these days, he could have found it anywhere in a public or private archive without a clear copyright notice. So we can assume that nobody knows who made this photo, or else we should ask Carynnyk.--Jordi (talk) 18:53, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Carynnyk most likely got it from the vilnaghetto.com web site, see his September 4, 2008 forum entry there. --Rosenzweig τ 09:56, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. That seems to indicate that it was first published, anonymously, in this 2014 book. Since the book was published in Germany, German copyright terms would apply as far as Commons is concerned, but I don't think that really makes a difference, since both Germany and Ukraine have 70 year terms for works that were published anonymously. A 2014 anonymous publication would enter the public domain in 2085. --Rosenzweig τ 19:36, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It must have been published before that though when it was first uploaded to ru.wp in 2009. So 2014 was most likely not the first publication. --Rosenzweig τ 19:39, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It was published on the cover of a 2008 Russian book; the full text PDF of this book is here (via [4]). Using reverse image searches with TinEye and Google Images, 2008 is also the earliest in which I could find it on the internet (various mostly Russian blogs). Since our file here has a 2007 save date in the Exif data, that's perhaps the time it was first digitized. --Rosenzweig τ 20:11, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I temporarily forgot that Treck08 had referenced and linked a page from 2007 above, with October 18, 2007 as the date for this photo. The save date in the Exif data is September 24, 2007. So 2007 is the earliest publication we could find so far. --Rosenzweig τ 20:27, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it's not so important anymore, but I scanned the first version of the image with Forensically. On the inscriptions, the blocks are uneven. Look at the buildings or the sky, there is no such thing. The same thing happened with the frame. And most importantly, this image was edited through Photoshop 7 in 2007. Also, the text on the thumbnail is much clearer than the rest of the details, which may indicate that this text was substituted there. It may be a fake. Keneris (talk) 20:05, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: per nomination and discussion. --Ellywa (talk) 18:24, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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