Commons:Deletion requests/File:SibeliusAndOrmandy1951.jpg

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File:SibeliusAndOrmandy1951.jpg

This is a recent upload (23 Oct) which fails COM:URAA (the work was not PD on the relevant URAA date, 1/1/1996). Per previous discussion, new uploads which fail the URAA test should be deleted. I'm doing this as a DR to confirm this is agreed; we might want to create a speedy template for the purpose for future uploads. Rd232 (talk) 15:10, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

This photograph is in the public domain in Finland because the photograph was first published before 1966. --Mlang.at.elisanet.fi (talk) 15:24, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Correct - that is not in dispute. But per Commons:Licensing it also needs to be PD in the US, and because of the URAA it isn't (unless we can show the URAA doesn't apply, eg simultaneous publication in the US and Finland, most likely via news agency). Rd232 (talk) 16:35, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

According to the Finnish Copyright Act, that photograph became Public Domain before 1991, and it indeed was Public Domain in 1996 as well. As it is explained: "URAA is a US law that restored copyrights in the U.S. on foreign works if that work was still copyrighted in the foreign source country on the URAA date." Now, that photograph was no longer copyrighted in the foreign country (Finland) on the URAA date. I don't quite understand why you claim otherwise. --Mlang.at.elisanet.fi (talk) 16:42, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Hm, I see now, the tag is confusing and not clear enough and should probably be split: in this case the work is covered by the old 25-years-after-creation rule, so it became PD in 1976. The 1995 law extending the 25 years to 50 years wasn't retroactive. So this photo is PD in Finland and US; it's fine. But the tag should be split I think - I'll raise it at COM:VPC. Rd232 (talk) 19:25, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

•  Question You wrote that the photo was first published before 1966, but the only indicated publication is from 1989. How do you know that it published before 1966? --Stefan4 (talk) 20:48, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
  • There is that, yes. The issues I raised at COM:VPC included the lack of clarity/consistency in Commons documentation on that point: the 25-year rule from 1961 to 1991 (and apparently retrospective..?) was for publication, whereas the 50-year rule from 1991 is for creation. So we're assuming this photo created in 1951 was published before 1966. Is that assumption reasonable? I don't know. Can we prove it was published then? I definitely don't know. Rd232 (talk) 21:05, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

• I think this all proves that we can't create a speedy template for URAA. If an issue is complicated enough to need to be sorted out at a DR, then it shouldn't be speedied. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:28, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

The photograph was published in Finnish newspapers in September 1951. The law (§ 49a:2) specifies the date of creation, not of publication, as relevant. --Mlang.at.elisanet.fi (talk) 08:24, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the information, which seems to remove doubts about the PD status. Do you have a source for the statement (for the possibility that somebody does not believe it, it would be nice to have the name and date for some big paper).

The 49a is in the current law. The relevant laws are Laki oikeudesta valokuvaan (405/1961) and Laki oikeudesta valokuviin (175/1927), which I have not been able to find on-line.

--LPfi (talk) 10:34, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I will need to visit the National Library for that and go through the microfilms. (Ormandy's visit was a well-publishized event.) — The two laws you mentioned are only available in printed publications. I now consider adding them (in Finnish) to my on-line archive when time permits. --Mlang.at.elisanet.fi (talk) 12:11, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

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Kept: . .     Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 23:42, 4 November 2012 (UTC)