Commons:Deletion requests/File:Map of Siam (territorial cessions).svg

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

File:Map of Siam (territorial cessions).svg

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No accurate Zhu Zi Ling (talk) 22:15, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Before the colonisation by European powers, South East Asia did not know the w:Westphalian sovereignty model of mutually exclusive sovereign territiories with fix borders, but had the Mandala model of overlapping spheres of influence. This map does make sense, because it shows the shrinking Siamese orbit due to the expansion of the colonial powers with their claims to absolute territorial control, who did not accept the overlapping spheres practised by the Southeast Asian powers.
It is based (in principle) on a map printed in a standard work on Thai history by w:David K. Wyatt, a very reputed historian and expert of South East Asia. Therefore, the map is totally legitimate—except for deviations from the source that should be corrected (see below). It should, however, be used with a caption that makes clear that the "territorial cessions" did not affect sovereign territories in direct and exclusive Siamese possession, but merely dependent polities in its outer "Mandala" sphere. --RJFF (talk) 19:22, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment @Zhu Zi Ling: ¿Did you at least bother to read the sources given on the description of the map? --Milenioscuro (talk) 16:19, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I'm absolutely sure that the Siamese never get this far in the North. There is absolutely no historical evidence that the Siam owned so large portion of land in Yunnan, China and Hòa Bình, Sơn La, Lai Châu and Điện Biên Province in Northern Vietnam. The maximum extent of the Rattanakosin Kingdom in the north is to Luang Prabang. During the whole 19th century, the Vietnamese owned a sizable portion of Laos, which they called "Trấn Ninh", as shown on this map (File:TonKin1883.jpg). As a reminder, North Vietnam was not yet colonized by the French at the time (1883). And in this following map which was made in 1887, (File:Cochinch-tonkin.JPG) Xieng Khouang Plateau and Houaphan Province of Laos are still under Vietnamese control. So how is it possible that the Siamese could lose an area that they never own a year later? (other historical map: File:Mission Pavie, Indo-Chine, 1879-1895 - géographie et voyages (1900) (14587063850).jpg ) --段黎志寶talk 21:07, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    For the Burmese part: The Siamese actually tried to invade the Shan States when the Burmese were at war with the Bristish for the second time, but the invasion was pushed back. When the British annexed Upper Burma in 1885, the Shan states were also included and were administered as "Frontier Areas". (see: British rule in Burma#Divisions of British Burma) In history, the Shan States were actually under Thai control for a short time, but that only happened 50 years later during World War II.
    For the Cambodian part: Cambodia already became a French Protectorate in 1863 ("...On 11 August 1863, Norodom signed a treaty acknowledging a French protectorate over his kingdom...", en:French protectorate of Cambodia). I therefore doubt the trustworthiness of your sources. I won't change my mind unless you fix your map with correct data and trustworthy sources. --段黎志寶talk 22:31, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
     Comment Sorry, but wikipedia is not an original source. If you have verifiable books or images, it would be convenient to provide them. Also, if my map has errors, is really necessary to delete it? what nonsense is this? Just having said it on my talk page what errors does it have (as a user already did) was enough. --Milenioscuro (talk) 18:34, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Milenioscuro: I don't think it's nonsense to request a deletion because Wikipedia has no place for incorrect information. But since there is no reason to delete a file used in various Wikipedias according to Commons' policy, you don't have to be afraid that this map will be deleted. However, I still think that the information on this map needs to be corrected, so I'll provide you with the necessary sources. BTW, if you are wondering why you answered Chibaodoanle but another user replied back, it's because my username was renamed yesterday after I requested it on Meta. In addition, the fact that I use Chinese characters as my signature doesn't mean that I am the same person as Zhu Zi Ling. I only see this because one of my map is requested to be deleted on the same day as yours. If I were he, I wouldn't be so stupid that I would answer with an another account.--段黎志寶talk 19:37, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
     Comment @A: So, the first step that should be taken in case of a disagreement, according to you, is to delete files instead than accord with the author of the file or the community on the points in dispute? At least you took the time to read the policies of commons, like this Commons:NPOV for example? --Milenioscuro (talk) 12:27, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Milenioscuro: I'm not the one asking to delete your work. I only give my opinion in a discussion that has already started.--Atalk 12:43, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
     Comment That is not what you have been saying comments above, be consistent with what you say. --Milenioscuro (talk) 13:31, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The border between Viet Nam and this kingdom was the same as today's border! Amazing. --Io Herodotus (talk) 03:45, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: While accuracy issues do warrant inspection and correction, the map illustrates an encyclopaedic topic, and is used in several Wikipedias. Thus it is within COM:SCOPE and there is no policy-based reason for deletion. The best place to continue the discussion would be the image talk page. --Paul_012 (talk) 07:16, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment By the way, are the users Zhu Zi Ling and Chibaodoanle related? It is quite suspicious to me that I have contacted one of them and answered the other.--Milenioscuro (talk) 18:40, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree that the map is inaccurate and does not completely match the cited sources. I already informed the creator about my doubts some time ago. In the map printed in David K. Wyatt's A Short History of Thailand (2003), the Shan States (pink territory north of Thailand marked with "1893"), are not mapped as a lost territory of Siam. Moreover, there is no indication of any cession by Siam to Britain that took place in 1893. Thirdly, I do not know of any reference that Britain ever annexed the so-called "Chinese Shan states" east of the Nam Lam river. I hope that User:Milenioscuro is able to perform this correction. I would strongly favour a corrected version over a blunt deletion of this otherwise excellent, highly needed map that is used in many Wikipedia articles in several languages. --RJFF (talk) 18:45, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: in use. --P 1 9 9  ✉ 15:57, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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