Commons:Deletion requests/File:Mali Village Dance.ogv

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File:Mali Village Dance.ogv

Permission (or explanation why their work/performance is not protected) form the composer and the musicians missing. Commons:Licensing#Mali "Copyright is protected for 70 years after the death of the author." The composition maybe is not protected as it is "folklore" (article 9 - if I read correclty) - see en:Djembe#Role_in_the_traditional_ensemble. Saibo (Δ) 00:49, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I took this video myself, and I had permission from the participants do so. I do not believe that there is any copyright issue here. --MichiHenning (talk) 00:52, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, BTW, this isn't a performance. It's simply village people doing what they do. The event wasn't staged for anyone's benefit, other than the participants themselves. --MichiHenning (talk) 00:54, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply - yes, I know that you took it. I am just questioning the music which you have recorded. Did the musicians agree to publish that under CC zero 1.0? --Saibo (Δ) 00:56, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

No, they didn't. The reality is that I had no idea in Jan 2008 that this video might be relevant to the Wikipedia djembe page four years later. For what it's worth, this is a short clip from a much longer video I took that day. I'm not a copyright expert, so I can only report on the context in which I took the footage. What is going on here is part of normal village life. It's really no different from taking footage of people at the markets or on a busy street.

I certainly had permission to take the footage, and no-one placed any restrictions on me as to what I could do with it.

I don't know how to deal with this from a legal perspective. I don't think this is any different from a TV station showing scenes from a, say, New Year celebration with random anonymous people dancing. Certainly, the event was public. Anyone who walks past is welcome to stay and participate. You can take very similar footage in Bamako most days of the week. The music itself isn't a particular composition by the musicians, but traditional. These rhythms have been played for hundreds of years and are part of folklore. I guess a close western equivalent would be something like Auld Lang Syne--MichiHenning (talk) 04:27, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the info! Yes, the music (composition) may not be a problem as said in my initial statement since it may be "folklore" (very old and shared and also explicitly exempted from copyright (if I read the Mali law correctly, since it is French)). For example in Germany musicians' work/performance is protected 50 years (if I understand correctly). As the drummers here e.g. invent / improvise special rhythms (according to the Wikipedia article) in breaks when no one is dancing I would like to assume that their performance could be protected (until we know the opposite).

You mention that it was totally public - usually Freedom of panorama does not apply to sound (it is just for visual impressions). And even if, there is no Freedom of panorama in Mali (which is usable for Commons).

You compare to TV stations: Press and TV usually have more freedom in use of works by other people than we. Also they may just use works knowing that the author will never sue them (we don't do that). Our licenses (e.g. the CC0 under which you have published that video) allow for example that I take the sound from the video, burn it to audio CDs and sell them.

I really would like to keep that video - just I would like to have a justification for this... Maybe someone able to read French can have a look in the copyright law of Mali regarding the rights of the musicians? --Saibo (Δ) 14:10, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I am the bad boy who placed the video on commons main page. First of all: it is nice stuff and I would like to keep it on commons. As MichiHenning noticed the footage including the problematic sound was taken in the beginning of the year 2008 (exactly 2008-01-06). However the law refereed by Saibo is dated from 2008-07-2008 (Loi n° 08 - 024 / du 23 juillet 2008 fixant le régime de la propriété littéraire et artistique en République du Mali). So (in my opinion) it can not be the legal basis to a decision here. At the time the video was taken the law No. 77-46 CMLN of July 12, 1977 was valid. It suggests in article 8 that folklore is part of the national heritage and a permission for use is only needed for commercial purpose. So I don`t see any reason to delete this video but I am not a legal expert... Regards, --Pristurus (talk) 19:12, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. Please not that we require full commercial permission for all our files. See the intro of COM:L. Your comment "permission for use is only needed for commercial purpose" is void therefore and doesn't help us to keep that file. Regarding the new law: we usually apply newer laws as they are mostly retroactive (valid also for the past). However, if you look in the old law: is there a statement about performers' rights? (I cannot read French, sorry). --Saibo (Δ) 03:23, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I had a read of the 2008 document. (I can read a little French.) My reading suggests that the law doesn't even apply:

• The event on the video is not an artistic work in the sense of this law. It is villagers going about their daily lives.
• The event is not a performance. It is not staged, there is no entry fee, anyone who walks past can participate, etc.
• The music at the event is not an original composition or artwork in the sense of this law (which is mostly concerned with protecting things such as documents, compositions, movies, and other original creations.) The music is traditional and has been played like this for hundreds of years all over southeastern Mali and northeastern Guinea. It is folklore.
• The three people playing drums at the event aren't musicians in the sense of the law, that is, people who produce, compose, or perform music in the sense of creating a "work". (The three guys are actually peanut farmers. They are the ones who happen to play drums when the villagers decide to have a party.)

I'm not a lawyer and not fluent in French. But, as best as I can tell, this law doesn't apply to the video.

The context in which all this happened was that Sega Cisse, an acknowledged master drummer, invited me to his village so I could experience the traditional village life. I was encouraged (and even repeatedly reminded) to take images and video while I was there. One thing these people passionately care about is their culture, and the danger of losing it because, in the large cities, the village traditions are rapidly being forgotten. Sega (like many other masters) wants to preserve that culture. (You can see him here.) I know from my conversations with him and the people at the village that they'd be thrilled if they knew that a little piece of their culture is being preserved and made available to people world-wide. I know, in terms of copyright law, this means nothing. But it illustrates that I definitely took the footage with the consent (and encouragement) of the participants.

It would seem unlikely that someone would want to sell the footage or the sound from the video. The video was taken with a still camera at 640x480 resolution, and the sound captured in mono by the built-in microphone. I can watch hours of similar footage every week on Bamako television. (Again, I know that doesn't affect the copyright discussion, but I don't think sale of the material is a realistic concern because the material is of low quality and far better quality material is broadcast daily in Mali.)

I would like to ask that the video not be removed until someone with good knowledge of legal French and some legal background can look at this to provide another opinion.

In the mean time, I will forward the video to one of my contacts in Bamako who can talk to Sega. It might be possible for Sega to actually ask the three drummers involved to give permission. (I'm not sure at this point how feasible this is. Sega is 76 or 77 by now, and I don't know how often he goes back to his village. But, if he does, I have no doubt that he will get permission from the musicians.) Assuming that the musicians do give permission, am I correct in thinking that this would solve this entire problem? --MichiHenning (talk) 07:07, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, if the musicians would agree to publish that video usable for everyone for every use it would be more than okay. Also do not fear that the file will be deleted early - it won't. Thank you for your comments! To reiterate: the question is not if someone would like to sell the video or the sound of the video - the question is: can we make sure that someone could do without the need to hope that "the copyright owner will not bother to sue or cannot afford to" (COM:PRP). That is the requirement also laid down in COM:L. Your reasoning may be true that the act we see in the video is no "work of music" but more like a sports activity and that the drummers are no musicians (performers) and do therefore not get a protection of their "work" by the law. I am interested to see what others (especially French-speaking) users think. You do not need to ask Sega before that. Cheers --Saibo (Δ) 18:34, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments and clarification! I have sent an email to my contact in Bamako to see whether Sega and the musicians can be reached. If the consensus after review of the act is that the video is OK, everything is fine. If the consensus is that the video is not OK, I'll have at least a head-start on trying to get permission. --MichiHenning (talk) 01:18, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

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Deleted: One does not have to be a professional to create works that have a copyright. The drummers here probably have a copyright in their work. Ironically, that copyright would not exist except for this recording -- works that are not fixed (written down or recorded) do not have a copyright. There may or may not be a copyright in other parts of the work. It has been six months, so permission is probably not coming. .     Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 15:08, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Restored after further discussion, see File talk:Mali Village Dance.ogv .     Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 11:51, 12 September 2012 (UTC)