Commons:Deletion requests/File:Levantine Arabic Map 2021.jpg

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

File:Levantine Arabic Map 2021.jpg

[edit]

Un Accurate map. There are Several Arabic Accents in this region not just a single one. Many of the areas highlighted don't share the same accent. باسم (talk) 20:45, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know, in the Antakya region, they speak Turkish. there is no use for any dialect of Arabic in the region. what is the source of your information?--Michel Bakni (talk) 20:51, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Support This map does not reflect anything on the ground. For example, it is not possible to distinguish the dialect of the inhabitants of Daraa (Syria) from the dialect of Ramtha (Jordan), which are located within the Hauran Plain, and are separated on this map. Freedom's Falcon (talk) 21:02, 3 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep The file description mentions the sources used to design this map, namely:
  • w:Ethnologue (the standard reference in linguistics, published by w:SIL International, the registration authority for the w:ISO 639-3 international standard for language codes), and
  • the chapter "Levantine Arabic" in "The Semitic Languages" (edited by w:John Huehnergard, a reference in the categorization of Semitic languages). This chapter was written by Kristen Brustad (also the co-author of the "Al-Kitaab" series, the reference book to teach Modern Standard Arabic to English speakers) and Emilie Zuniga.
So these are quality sources. That's why there is no reason to delete this map.
Then, different contributors think this map is not accurate (which may be true, because it's impossible for a linguistic map to be 100% correct: the map is not the territory). But these contributors fail to provide anything else than their own experience. They also fail to provide any alternative source or map.
Regarding Turkey specifically (mentioned by @Michel Bakni: and @Omar kandil: ), here are two additional sources: Cilician Arabic, Antiochia Arabic, and Turkey in the Encyclopedia of Arabic Language and Linguistics.
I also notice that the previous version (File:Levantine Arabic Map.jpg), created in 2018 without Israel, wasn't opposed by anyone.
For all these reasons, this map should be kept as it is and contributors who think this map is inaccurate can for instance:
  • Write an email to Ethnologue, Pr Huehnergard or Pr Brustad to ask them to update their map or book, and/or;
  • Find other sources to upload another map of Arabic dialects spoken in the Levant.
A455bcd9 (talk) 15:16, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
* 1.2% of the population is in acordnece with your map? your map shows that it is a dominated langague in the region (city and courtyside).--Michel Bakni (talk) 19:26, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is not "my map" but a map based on quality sources. This map may have flaws but as far as I know, it is based on the best available references. If you know any other academic references please provide them. Otherwise, it's just your opinion. A455bcd9 (talk) 09:07, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
To be more precise: yes I created this map (so in this meaning it is "my map") but it is based on @Nehme1499: 's map, created in 2018: File:Levantine Arabic Map.jpg (I wonder why you don't ask the deletion of this other map by the way? The only difference is the presence of Israel, and this map is used on many Wikipedias, including the Modern Standard Arabic Wikipedia.) A455bcd9 (talk) 09:09, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
By the way @Michel Bakni: you did not understand the above article: 1.2% is the percentage of Arabic speakers in the whole of Turkey. But in the Antakya region, this percentage is way higher (about 1.6M inhabitants in the Hatay province, and more than 500,000 indigenous Arabic speakers among them according to Ethnologue and the Encyclopedia of Arabic Language and Linguistics, so at least 31%). A455bcd9 (talk) 09:18, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep I don't think it's a good map & certain points such as re: the Hauran plain are correct. I agree that coloring things in such a binary fashion according to modern political borders is overly simplistic. However, several of the arguments in favor of deletion are completely beside the point. The fact that only a large minority of speakers in Hatay are native Arabic speakers has nothing to do with the classification of their dialect; it would be likewise absurd not to color in Israel proper just because the majority of the state's citizens are Hebrew speakers (hence why the map was updated from its previous form, which did not color in Israel proper). Anyway, while I think it is a bad map, it's completely based off of reputable sources. Better sources may be available with which the map can be further refined, but as-is the argument in favor of the map's deletion is not sufficiently justified, in my view. By the way, I echo the critique of Ethnologue, who I think is more at fault here; after all the North vs. South Levantine distinction is theirs & they do basically break it down as is shown on the map. One very important thing to note is that, while there are certainly many Levantine Arabic sub-dialects in the region, this is not what the map is meant to show in the first place. For instance, "Aleppine" Arabic (i.e. which I believe forms a continuum including the dialects of Hatay, etc.) has distinct features that make it similar to Mesopotamian Arabic; however, it still belongs within the North Levantine family, at least according to Ethnologue's classification. It would be great to have a map that distinguishes between these different subdialects, but again that would be a different map with a different core purpose, whereas this is one is merely meant to indicate the distribution of the North & South Levantine dialect families. In view of that, this map is largely accurate, even if I agree that the North / South split is somewhat vague & simply not very informative — but again that's really an issue with how Ethnologue has classified things & the eternal question of language vs. dialect vs. accent, etc. In sum, the map should be updated to more accurately reflect linguistic distribution (i.e. by not simply drawing lines across country borders & showing more spotty distribution), but it makes no sense to delete it as a whole.AdrianAbdulBaha (talk) 15:04, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree this map (like any linguistic map) is a simplification of reality. It would be amazing to improve it with color shades or dots to show the "sub-dialects" of Levantine. However, I don't know any reliable source that we could use to do that. So we use the current one that could be renamed "Levantine Arabic Map according to Ethnologue" if some people are unhappy with it. But in any case, there is no reason to delete it. A455bcd9 (talk) 17:06, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Support Hello @A455bcd9: it looks like you did not read the book "The Semitic Languages" before because it did not mention the south or north Levantine Arabic "at all" as this map is made of. In addition, the map on page 404 which is titled "THE SPEECH AREA OF LEVANTINE ARABIC" from the book includes the whole Levante in addition to part of Turkey and Egypt nowadays, please find out that in the book. The book is saying clearly in the first sentence in the introduction "Levantine Arabic (LA) is best described as a dialect bundle whose varieties are spoken across the Levant" and not mentioning anything about having south or north as this map is made from.--Sandra Hanbo (talk) 21:24, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I read the book "The Semitic Languages" and I used it to color Israel only. The rest of the map is based on Ethnologue:
  •  Support This map is clearly based on modern political borders, which is clearly inaccurate. Dialects do NOT stop abruptly, but rather change as a gradient. Also, there is no such north vs south Levantine. For example, the dialects spoken in Nablus is much closer to Damascus than it is to the neighboring villages and towns in Palestine. Likewise, southern Lebanon dialects are closer to northern Palestine than to Beirut. Amr ibnu Kulthoum عمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 05:49, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    What you say is true, Levantine (like most dialects and languages in the world) is a dialect continuum. I agree that the classification South vs North has many flows, but it is the one used by most (if not all) Western scholars, and especially by Ethnologue. If you have another source please feel free to use it to create another file. For instance, it would be great to have an image on Wikimedia Commons with the map of the Levant and "rural" vs "urban" vs "bedouins" areas. A455bcd9 (talk) 09:04, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @A455bcd9: This map is inaccurate as there are several dialects for each area and could not be draws this way, if the map is correct why we don't find it in any of the resources above, where as mentioned before the book drawn a map for whole levant Arabic and the others don't draw any thing related to the suggested map. --Sandra Hanbo (talk) 13:40, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    If you create a free account on Ethnologue and click on the above link you'll see what is on these maps:
As I also have free account, I could not find more, but according to this one by example (Jordan and Syria) it is not as commons map, in addition, You can't say that the language of Syrian Arab Republic is North Levantine Arabic like here, it is Arabic, the same for each country in the Arab world, if this website mention the language of any country with "one of its dialects" then it is unreliable and inaccurate.--Sandra Hanbo (talk) 14:49, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi! "Arabic, the same for each country in the Arab world": this seems to me to be an ideological statement not backed by any source. All linguistics sources I checked on the subject confirm the diglossia in the Levant (and the rest of the Arab world): two languages, the official Modern Standard Arabic and the non-official local colloquial/vernacular/variety/dialect. The map on Ethnologue shows the spoken languages in each region and not the official language at the state level. This is the case in many other countries, for instance, in France, French is the only official language at the state level but many local languages are spoken across the territory and each of them has its own "border", which is not official neither strictly delimited and can evolve over time. A455bcd9 (talk) 17:12, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ideological? that's the fact, that's what we as Arabic speaking people believe, and that's how it was for centuries. In short: claiming that every Arabic accent is a separate language is not true and not what the general people believe. Funny how I was able to understand the "Palestinian language" and "Egyptian language" since I was 5! We all know those who are claiming that accents are separate languages are just trying to create a new identity for themselves due to the fact that they connect all wrongs in the Arab world to their cultural heritage and (maybe) government actions (I say maybe because we all know many of these people are more than happy to be ruled by a dictator who gives them false nationalism than a real democrat who would protect the nation's real identity). We are not going to allow our language to be targeted in this manner, no matter who says the opposite. Go ahead and learn some Arabic and contribute with us in building ar.wiki instead of creating new projects that make people laugh when reading them. Don't ping me, I'll repeat the same thing--باسم (talk) 16:23, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi باسم,
You wrote "that's what we as Arabic speaking people believe". That's exactly what I meant by ideology. Indeed, to "believe" means, according to Oxford Languages: "accept that (something) is true, especially without proof."
I do agree that most Arabic speaking people consider that there's one single Arabic language with many different accents. However, there are also several native Arabic speakers who think differently than this majority, for instance: How Arabs Have Failed Their Language and No, Levantine is not a “dialect of” Arabic.
That being said, individual opinions (including yours and mine) on the status (accent, dialect, language, etc.) of varieties of Arabic don't matter for this map and for this request. Wikipedia is based on reliable sources. This map represents the view of Ethnologue (the standard reference in linguistics) and of the vast majority of (Western?) scholars. So it deserves being on Wikimedia Commons for this reason.
You are free to disagree with these scholars and to develop another point of view. You are also free to find other sources and to upload another map presenting these sources' alternative point of view. However, there's no place here for such a debate. I find it extremely surprising that you do not seem to understand that as I see on your profile that you're an administrator on the ar.wiki and on Wikidata... A455bcd9 (talk) 09:50, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@A455bcd9: Arabic is a single language, no matter what any group of people or organization say. We, the speakers and the children of this culture are the ones who determine what is acceptable and not. We will not allow anyone else to tell us otherwise. Yes, I'm an admin, and I will defend my language and culture with all my heart. We won't allow this stupidity to go on anymore--باسم (talk) 09:59, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks @باسم: for your clear answer. Just to be sure that I understand your point well, by "stupidity", do you refer to projects such as the Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia and the Moroccan Arabic Wikipedia? Or entries in the Wiktionary for Arabic "dialects"? Or is it just that in the case of this specific map you do not want the opinion of scholars who argue that there are several Arabic languages (instead of just accents and dialects) to be displayed on Wikipedia or any other Wikimedia projects such as Wikimedia Commons? A455bcd9 (talk) 10:13, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@A455bcd9: i thought my answer was clear--باسم (talk) 10:52, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@باسم: I'm sorry, I wasn't clear myself, the first part of your answer was indeed really clear but I wondered what the last sentence ("We won't allow this stupidity to go on anymore") was exactly referring to. That's why I asked you in my previous message what you meant. So did you refer to projects such as arz.wiki and ary.wiki, and/or to the ajp entries in en.wikt, and/or to the mention on Wikimedia projects (such as this map) of some scholars' opinions who argue that Arabic accents are separate languages? A455bcd9 (talk) 11:24, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @باسم: , did you have any time to read my message? I'd love to know your opinion. Thanks! A455bcd9 (talk) 10:17, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Arabic dialects are not languages, These are accents, I was wondering why we do not have the same thing for English or French as Texan English or Quebec French or even every language has separate accent in the same country, Why are you insisting on Arabic dialects to call them languages and not looking at yours to call it language??!! and again according to your resource mentioned above the map is not accurate and in Arabic studies which should be looking for to know about this language there is nothing called northern or southern levantine language. --Sandra Hanbo (talk) 16:48, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Sandra Hanbo: , I'm afraid you do not understand what this request is about. This request is NOT about the status of Arabic varieties as accents, dialects, or languages. And by the way, I do not defend the point of view of this map. I do think that there are many issues in this map, including the classification of "Northern" vs "Southern" Levantine. I do not say that this map represents reality. This maps represents the view of Ethnologue, the standard reference in linguistics, and the registration authority for the ISO 639-3 international standard for language codes. These international organizations decided that there were two languages in the region: ajp (South Levantine Arabic) and apc (North Levantine Arabic) and we represent the geographical distribution of these two languages according to these organizations on a map. That's it. Nothing more. That's why this map has to stay on Wikipedia/Wikimedia, whether you like it or not, whether you disagree with it or not. And whether it's true or not! Because "Truth" is not the criteria used to decide whether an image should be uploaded on Wikimedia Commons or not.
Then you (and others) are free to create many other maps presenting alternative points of view, based on other reliable sources (or on the same ones if Ethnologue changes their view on the subject). That's how Wikipedia works. Censoring alternative points of view from established scholars because you disagree with them is not how Wikimedia projects work I think.
Do you understand my point of view? A455bcd9 (talk) 17:16, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep I went through the resources cited and there's a clear delineation between the Northern, and Southern Levant. That said, given the sources, there's still reason to think it's not the best of maps given that there's a spectrum of dialects, and also a distinction between urban and rural pronunciation noted in "Idioms and Idiomatic Expressions in Levantine Arabic" by Elham Alzoubi. Anyways, here are more references supporting the map. The North, especially Lebanon, was more French influenced, thus the ة (taa marbuta) is pronounced with an é sound. They say medinay instead of medina."Mastering Arabic 2," 2nd edition, Wightwick and Gaafar, p. 106. Another example is the سوّى and عمل distinction to express to do. "Syrian Colloquial Arabic: A Functional Course," Liddicoat, Lennane & Rahim, p. 235 --Barce (talk) 23:50, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep No reason to delete, the map is fully-sourced. North and South Levantine are "macro dialects" which include other dialects. Showing the distinction between the two is not incorrect, even though the map could obviously be made more detailed. Nehme1499 (talk) 11:24, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: THe map is widely used, so policy forbids deletion on these grounds. Note that using  Support in a DR is confusing -- to you support keeping or deleting? Please use {{Vk}} and {{Vd}} instead. .     Jim . . . (Jameslwoodward) (talk to me) 16:11, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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