Commons:Deletion requests/File:Emblema Junta de Castilla y Leon.png

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File:Emblema Junta de Castilla y Leon.png

Coats of arms are not part of {{PD-SpanishGov}} Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 05:25, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi Magog the Ogre

I don't understand the reason you have proposed this file for deletion.

You say that Coats of arms are not part of {{PD-SpanishGov}}. But this image is regulated in a legal disposition: DECRETO 119/2003, de 16 de octubre, por el que se aprueba la Identidad Corporativa de la Junta de Castilla y León.

In fact, this is not a coat of arms, but the logo of the government of a regional administration.

--Aibapas (talk) 06:03, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

@Aibapas: there are two parts of creativity in a coat of arms: the definition and the representation. It sounds like the definition is not copyrightable under Spanish law, but the representation might be. I am certainly open to evidence to the contrary. Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 05:01, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

@Magog the Ogre As I previously said, this is not a coat of arms, but the logo of the government of a regional administration.

Castilla y Leon is a region (territory) with a blazon.

Junta de Castilla y Leon is the government of Castilla y León regional administration. Its logo takes into account the region blazon. But, as you can see defined in DECRETO 119/2003, de 16 de octubre, por el que se aprueba la Identidad Corporativa de la Junta de Castilla y León, it is a logo, not a coat of arms. --Aibapas (talk) 06:27, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

@Aibapas: it doesn't matter what we call it; if it has a definition and a representation, then the essay is applicable. Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 23:23, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

@Magog the Ogre If the problem is the license, it should be changed. The sentence used in similar cases in Spain are "I, the copyright holder of this work..." but in all examples I have found the logos of regional (or national) governments or region blazon, they haven't been uploaded by the authority that manages it. For example, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Escudo_de_Castilla_y_Le%C3%B3n_(institucional).svg, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Logo_Gobierno_de_Espa%C3%B1a.png, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Escudo_de_Castilla_y_Le%C3%B3n_-_Versi%C3%B3n_her%C3%A1ldica_oficial.svg.

Anyway, I ping @LMLM: as the user that modified the copyright. Maybe he can explain better this issue. --Aibapas (talk) 06:51, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi, @Aibapas: and @Magog the Ogre: . It does not matter if it is a CoA or a logo. It is a part of a ruling disposition of the Goverment of Autonomous Comunity of Spain, Castilla y León. So, it is not subjected to "intellectual property", as {{PD-SpanishGov}} says. Legal and ruling dispositions in Spain are published in official gazettes. In this case, the official gazzete of Castilla y León is the Boletín Oficial de Castilla y León. More information here. And the image takes part of DECRETO 119/2003, de 16 de octubre, por el que se aprueba la Identidad Corporativa de la Junta de Castilla y León, published in BOCyYL on Wednesday 22th of October of 2003. So, as a part of a ruling disposition is not subjected to intellectual property. It does not matter if is a CoA, a logo, a photograph, a graphics,... {{PD-SpanishGov}} does not mean 'only text'. Same case that Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by LMLM. LMLM (talk) 10:53, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

@Aibapas: that you've found other copyright violations on Commons means only that those should be deleted, not that this should be kept. See w:WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.

@LMLM: It is a stretch to say that any work by the government is a "legal disposition." With some notable exceptions, we have normally seen that similarly written copyright laws around the world only apply to a narrow definition of a legal document and/or disposition. In fact, the page you linked on Spanish Wikipedia takes the same view; nowhere on that page does it say that all works by the government are free.

My point remains; the definition of the coat of arms is likely free, as it is a legal matter. The representation is not. Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 05:03, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

@Magog the Ogre: I did't wanted to say that they were violations (although they may be so). --Aibapas (talk) 06:53, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

@Magog the Ogre: I did not say that 'any work by the government is a "legal disposition."' Obviously not. For instance, anyone can find a lot of works done by Castilla y León government at www.jcyl.es. But only the "disposiciones legales o reglamentarias y sus correspondientes proyectos, las resoluciones de los órganos jurisdiccionales y los actos, acuerdos, deliberaciones y dictámenes de los organismos públicos, así como las traducciones oficiales de todos los textos anteriores" are not subjected to intellectual property. More information about “disposiciones legales o reglamentarias y sus correspondientes proyectos":

Por un lado tenemos las “disposiciones legales o reglamentarias y sus correspondientes proyectos” como manifestación del poder legislativo. La LPI se refiere no sólo a las normas que puedan ser elaboradas por el Congreso de los Diputados, sino a todas las disposiciones de carácter normativo de nuestro ordenamiento dictadas por quienes tengan la facultad legalmente atribuida para ello. Así, por ejemplo se deben incluir las leyes elaboradas por los parlamentos autonómicos, las ordenes ministeriales, las normas urbanísticas municipales, etc. Hay que tener en cuenta que estas normas son publicadas en el Boletín Oficial correspondiente, y dado que tienen alcance general son públicamente consultables.

— Javier de la Cueva, David Maeztu y Andy Ramos, lawyers, experts in intellectual property and Internet [1]

Google translation:

On the one hand we have "legal or regulatory provisions and their projects" as a manifestation of the legislature. The LPI refers not only to rules that may be developed by the Congress of Deputies, but to all provisions of normative character of our system dictated by those with the authority legally attributed to it. So, for example to include the laws made by the autonomous parliaments, ministerial orders, municipal planning regulations, etc. Keep in mind that these rules are published in the corresponding Official Gazette, and are of general application since they are publicly searchable.

In this case, it is a Decreto (en:Decree) signed by the President of Castilla y León and the 'Consejero' of Presidency and published in an Official Gazette. As you can see here (a law published in the Spanish Official Gazette), both (President and Consejero) has the authority to dictate legal and ruling dispositions in Castilla y León.

All this regardless of if it is a CoA, a logo, a map, or text. --LMLM (talk) 08:45, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

@LMLM: I think we're talking past each other here. I am not disputing that the definition of this COA is public domain. However, unless the specific drawing of this image came out of a disposición, it is not public domain as well. Do you see my point? If so, can you show that the representation (*not* the definition) falls under this clause? Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 17:19, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

@Magog the Ogre: Have you seen the representations included in the decreto (decree)? All the representations are not subjected to intellectual property, because they are part of the decree. And there is no enough originality in changing grays into colors when the equivalences are included in the decree. --LMLM (talk) 18:28, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

@LMLM: No, I did not. I withdraw this DR (not prejudicing other DRs). Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 13:15, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

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Kept: emblem was in fact drawn as part of a government decree. --Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 13:16, 30 January 2016 (UTC)