Commons:Deletion requests/File:De la Grandière amiral 05097.jpg

From Wikimedia Commons, the free media repository
Jump to navigation Jump to search
This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

File:De la Grandière amiral 05097.jpg

[edit]

1917 painting by an artist that we don't have a deathdate for, Undelete in 2038 when PD-old-assumed kicks in. Abzeronow (talk) 16:55, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1917 date is from https://www.historicvietnam.com/monograph-of-saigon-parish/admiral-pierre-paul-de-la-grandiere-by-mascre-souville-musee-du-quai-branly/ Abzeronow (talk) 16:57, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Where did you get 1941 from? That might be a good clue for me looking through birth, marriage, and death records online. I have access to some French census records. He did a painting of Pierre-Paul de La Grandière (1807-1876), if it was done from life, it would have been in the 1800s. Do you think Mascré-Souville is the family name? It looks like other have been using Mascré (given name) Souville (family name), I can't find him in the French records using either combination. He may be Mascre (family name) of Souville (location) --RAN (talk) 02:12, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A painting by Mascré-Souville is dated circa 1927-1941 on https://www.frieze.com/article/fraught-future-ethnographic-museum, 1941 could not be in the possible range of creation if he were dead. 1870s as the start of his career is possible but a bit of a stretch. Abzeronow (talk) 15:32, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See comment below. 1927–1941 was the reign of King Sisowath Monivong of Cambodia, who Mascré-Souville also painted, which is likely the reason for that dating. The painting Frieze is showing is of Sisowath I, his father, but painted from a photograph, probably at the same time. From what I'm seeing "Mascré-Souville" is the surname. There are two instances of auction houses or collections giving "Charles" as a first name, but the largest collection of his work lists him simply as "Mr. Mascré-Souville" with a question mark for his given name. —Tcr25 (talk) 15:09, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • See also: Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Mascré-Souville Since no institution that we have Identifiers for, over the past 100 years, has been able to figure out who they are, perhaps we should assume they used a pseudonym and "PD-EU-no author disclosure" would apply. We have access to birth, marriage, and death records for France as well as the French census. None of the paintings remained with the artist, they all appear to have been with the sitter or the sitter's institution. If they had remained with the artists, never seen by the public, we would have known who the artist was, and had a death date. Most EU jurisdictions have a clawback from the public domain if the creator becomes known and has died less than 70 years ago. --RAN (talk) 16:27, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Even if we accept an Anonymous in the EU license for these paintings, we'd still need to know when they are made available to the public. If it was after 1938, URAA would have restored the U.S. copyright for them. Abzeronow (talk) 16:37, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Comment All these paintings are in the Musée du quai Branly having previously been part of the Musée national des Arts d'Afrique et d'Océanie collection, which existed from 1931 to 2003; nothing in the inventory numbers indicates an acquisition date. The museum dates them to "late 19th Century to first third 20th Century":
There are two paintings listed from between 1927 and 1941. These were previously in the collection of Ministry of the Overseas, which appears to have assigned the different date to Mascré-Souville's work. The 1927–1941 dates are the reign of Sisowath Monivong (who is the subject of one of the paintings), which may explain the given date of creation. The one mentioned above is of his father, Sisowath of Cambodia (d. 1927), and is described as having been made from a photograph, not from life.
There is one painting attributed to "Charles Mascré-Souville" at the Alexandre Vassiliev Foundation dated to 1926. (This is the only work I'm finding, assuming it's the same artist, with a definitive date of creation listed.)
I tried searching several major auction houses (Christie's, Sotheby's, Barnaby's, etc.) and none showed any works by Mascré-Souville having appeared in upcoming or past auctions; no results for them in MutualArt, Invaluable, or ArtNet either. Proantic has one landscape attributed to Charles Mascré-Souville, but the style is a bit different and there are no further details about the artist. —Tcr25 (talk) 14:54, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the information, Tcr25. First third of the 20th century essentially ends around 1933 or 1934 and late 19th Century gives us a start of circa 1880 (circa 1870 if we want to stretch a little). At least this gives us a date that we can restore all of these if deleted. Abzeronow (talk) 15:43, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: as per above. Unlikely to be still under a copyright. --Yann (talk) 17:56, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Deletion_requests/File:De_la_Grandière_amiral_05097.jpg&oldid=797876219"