Commons:Deletion requests/File:Alexander Calder painted Douglas DC-8 for Braniff AIrways 1973.jpg
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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.
No idea what is in the OTRS ticket, but the claim in the description is a fallacy. Clear evidence is required for the claims being made here. russavia (talk) 10:06, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- I've posted on the OTRS Noticeboard asking for clarification about what the ticket says. —Mr. Granger (talk · contribs) 15:18, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
- The ticket releases it under CC BY-SA 3.0 and GFDL. There is nothing about the claim in the description. Anon126 (✉ ⚒) 17:04, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the information. I've updated the file's licensing information accordingly, and therefore vote to
Keep. —Mr. Granger (talk · contribs) 17:20, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the information. I've updated the file's licensing information accordingly, and therefore vote to
- Ronhjones can possibly provide more information here as to why the OTRS was approved in this state. Mmb777e also needs to provide tangible evidence of the claim made on the image page. The OTRS with the statement does not add up. I'm still in favour of deletion here. russavia (talk) 19:41, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- Why do you still favor deletion? Regardless of Mmb777e's claim, Anon126 has verified that the file is available under a free license. So what reason is there for deletion? —Mr. Granger (talk · contribs) 20:40, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
- This is one that got deleted and then got restored on en-wiki after the ticket arrived, looks like I missed wrong license on the en-wiki version, sorry guys. Ticket is from copyright holder with full name and address. Let's revert to Mr. Granger's last version. Ronhjones (Talk) 01:53, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- Ronhjones does anything stand out to you about this image? The fact it is an air-to-air shot. The fact it is extremely poor quality (looks to me to be upscaled) The fact the uploader is from a historical society. The fact that historical societies generally do not own copyright but exist to preserve materials. It is most likely that Braniff (although a defunct entity) owns the copyright over the image. Seriously, we expect OTRS agents to look at tickets critically, not simply accept any claims that may be made. Now, it could be that the image is public domain if it was not first published with a copyright notice and if it was not renewed, but evidence on this is required. russavia (talk) 06:41, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- This is one that got deleted and then got restored on en-wiki after the ticket arrived, looks like I missed wrong license on the en-wiki version, sorry guys. Ticket is from copyright holder with full name and address. Let's revert to Mr. Granger's last version. Ronhjones (Talk) 01:53, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- It is most likely that Braniff owns the copyright over the image - now read en:User:Mmb777e and that may well be true. But I can't reveal the real name on the ticket as I have not been authorised to do so. I'll ping the user on en-wiki as he's still active, he may want to add some more. Ronhjones (Talk) 15:53, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- Ronhjones like I said, historical societies generally do not own copyright over images they store. I don't know how I can be any more clear about this. Unless Braniff International Airways (or the copyright holder) transferred copyright to the individual or the society (assuming they are legally able to act on behalf of the society), they can't provide it under a free licence. This is evident it is not the case because of the public domain claims. We need to know who the actual author of the work is in order to be able to ascertain any copyright status. C'mon mate, this is basic Commons policies we are talking about here. russavia (talk) 20:20, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- I've left a note on the user's talk page at en-wiki, he's not logged on today, suggest we give them a little while to respond. I'll also e-mail a reply via the ticket to see what we can find. Ronhjones (Talk) 16:22, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- Ronhjones like I said, historical societies generally do not own copyright over images they store. I don't know how I can be any more clear about this. Unless Braniff International Airways (or the copyright holder) transferred copyright to the individual or the society (assuming they are legally able to act on behalf of the society), they can't provide it under a free licence. This is evident it is not the case because of the public domain claims. We need to know who the actual author of the work is in order to be able to ascertain any copyright status. C'mon mate, this is basic Commons policies we are talking about here. russavia (talk) 20:20, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- It is most likely that Braniff owns the copyright over the image - now read en:User:Mmb777e and that may well be true. But I can't reveal the real name on the ticket as I have not been authorised to do so. I'll ping the user on en-wiki as he's still active, he may want to add some more. Ronhjones (Talk) 15:53, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
- Braniff Preservation Group is not a historical society but instead a group that preserves the history of Braniff Airways for the benefit of the Braniff Retirement Groups and for future generations to admire and enjoy. We do won the rights to this photograph. This photo along with approximately 15,000 other Braniff historic photos were purchased at Braniff Airways, Inc., Debtor In Possession, Inventory Dispersion Sale in July 1983, a year an two months after Airways ceased flying operations. At the time of the purchase of the photos, all rights were transferred to me (actually to my Father and then to me). Braniff retained all rights to their photos as company property including ALL Calder, Girard, and Pucci likenesses. Even the Calder Foundation cannot lay claim to any Mr. Calder's work created by him for Braniff. What I received were the files from Braniff's Advertising Department while the University of Texas at Dallas received the Public Relations files. Many times UTD will have the same photo as we do and we have mutually agreed to share the rights but with both having authority to use the picture as either entity feels appropriate. I am not sure if this photo is in the UTD collection but it could. I never release the full resolution of any photo owned by Braniff Preservation Group. I have a Debtor In Possession receipt stating that the photos were sold to my Father for the bid price of $743, which was a handsome sum in 1983. I have offered to produce this for Ronhjones to add to his files. While Braniff did own the original copyright it is now in my control along with the other photos in the grouping from the dispersion. Mmb777e (talk) 03:47, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
- Mmb777e is there any evidence that the copyrights were transferred at the time of the debtor sale. Such sales usually would only transfer the tangible property, not the actual rights connected to that property. Think of an artist who went bankrupt and his painting were sold at auction to recoup debt for creditors; the copyright would not be transferred. Also, there is the additional problem of the 2011 public domain claim. Whilst it's appreciated that you wish to share this photo on Commons, there is simply too much uncertainty relating to the status of this image (and in fact, all Braniff images that your group holds) for them to be on Commons. russavia (talk) 19:09, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
- Braniff Preservation Group is not a historical society but instead a group that preserves the history of Braniff Airways for the benefit of the Braniff Retirement Groups and for future generations to admire and enjoy. We do won the rights to this photograph. This photo along with approximately 15,000 other Braniff historic photos were purchased at Braniff Airways, Inc., Debtor In Possession, Inventory Dispersion Sale in July 1983, a year an two months after Airways ceased flying operations. At the time of the purchase of the photos, all rights were transferred to me (actually to my Father and then to me). Braniff retained all rights to their photos as company property including ALL Calder, Girard, and Pucci likenesses. Even the Calder Foundation cannot lay claim to any Mr. Calder's work created by him for Braniff. What I received were the files from Braniff's Advertising Department while the University of Texas at Dallas received the Public Relations files. Many times UTD will have the same photo as we do and we have mutually agreed to share the rights but with both having authority to use the picture as either entity feels appropriate. I am not sure if this photo is in the UTD collection but it could. I never release the full resolution of any photo owned by Braniff Preservation Group. I have a Debtor In Possession receipt stating that the photos were sold to my Father for the bid price of $743, which was a handsome sum in 1983. I have offered to produce this for Ronhjones to add to his files. While Braniff did own the original copyright it is now in my control along with the other photos in the grouping from the dispersion. Mmb777e (talk) 03:47, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Kept: No copyright issue here. The ticket is explicit about that. Yann (talk) 12:49, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
