Commons:Deletion requests/DPR and LPR flags

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

DPR and LPR flags

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We do not know who is the real and primordial author of these flags. And we can not guarantee that these flags are authentic symbols of DPR and LPR. So in this case we have copyvio or fake symbols. --Yakiv Gluck (talk) 19:27, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

+ see old requests and arguments:

These symbols are real, and obvious derivatives from Russian and Ukrainian symbols.  Keep Fry1989 eh? 23:37, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, they are not obvious derivatives! Did you even try to look at them? --Yakiv Gluck (talk) 00:35, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please explain. File:Coat of Arms of the Donetsk People's Republic.svg for example is the Russian eagle with an orb instead of the Romanov crowns, and the shield in the centre has the coat of arms of Kiev instead of St George. Looks like a derivative to me. Fry1989 eh? 00:15, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This one, for example, has the ribbon with the inscription too. --Yakiv Gluck (talk) 08:41, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
 Keep - Yes, I believe all of us looked at them. The original DPR flag and coat of arms are especially a derivative of the Donetsk Republic organization flag and Russian coat of arms. The original LPR coat of arms is a derivative of the Luhansk Oblast coat of arms. Also, all of the files you've placed on deletion are the same ones that anybody could find in 2014 (for the old ones) or currently on their websites, documents, videos, parades, etc. So I don't understand this naive notion of "we can not guarantee that these flags are authentic symbols". This would also leave an empty space in the infoboxes since all battles include one of those flags. If the no author part is bothering you, go over to the Syrian Civil War articles and check out the dozens of rebel flags that have unknown authors. SkoraPobeda (talk) 00:09, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"The original DPR flag and coat of arms…" — Show me please which of these ten images represent the "original" symbols. All of them? --Yakiv Gluck (talk) 08:41, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What I mean by original is that both the DPR and LPR had a different flag and coat of arms in the beginning of 2014: DPR flag 1, DPR COA 1, LPR flag 1, LPR COA 1, and then it was changed in late 2014: DPR flag 2, DPR COA 2, LPR flag 3, LPR COA 3 (LPR flag and COA was changed 3 times). After the new DPR symbols were created, they were derivatives of the older symbols. So now it seems to me that the white color of the DPR eagle is what's pushing you to delete them. DPR COA 1 and Donetsk Republic flag are clearly derivatives of the Russian COA, which itself has a white variant version. The definition of derivative is something that is based on another source, it doesn't have to be an exact replica. See for example my Ukrainian VDV flag, it's based off of the Russian VDV one. I believe these deletions are counterproductive, because anybody who does a quick search will see that they were/are officially used by the DPR and LPR. SkoraPobeda (talk) 17:08, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
All of these derivative works have some changes (creative elements) introduced by some unknown authors. These changes are the objects of copyright. File:Coat of Arms of the Donetsk People's Republic.svg & File:Flag of the Donetsk Republic (Organisation).svg have the ribbon and the artistic inscription. File:New Donetsk Peoples Republic flag.svg & File:Official Donetsk People's Republic coat of arms.png have the unknown mutant bird which is not equal to free russian mutant bird. And so on. --Yakiv Gluck (talk) 19:51, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Again, the ribbon and inscription changes doesn't make it a non-derivative. I'm seriously starting to think that this whole deletion request is based on POV, citing how you call the double-headed eagle a "russian mutant bird". There is no question about the fact that they are officially used by the DPR and LPR, plus it will affect every single War in Donbass infobox if deleted. This whole copyright issue wouldn't be a problem if there was an official DPR or LPR license, but the closest thing to that for now is the "insignia" license. All of the Ukrainian volunteer battalion flags and other insignia have unknown authors as well, but yet they are protected by the "PD-UA-exempt" license. I would like to invite MrPenguin20, Elevatorrailfan, Butko, Полиционер, Iryna Harpy, and RGloucester to this conversation for their views on this because I feel it is a controversial deletion request. Instead of fighting, it would be a great solution if we were to finally create the DPR and LPR license, as I've tried before and only found a temporary solution, the "insignia" license. SkoraPobeda (talk) 21:05, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Again, the ribbons, the artistic inscriptions, the unknown birds added to free images by unknown authors make derivative works non-free. --Yakiv Gluck (talk) 22:53, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
 Keep Flags and coats of arms at first are blazons. And any people can create images depended on blazons. For example, see Category:Flags of Ukraine and try to find flags from official documents or flags from real authors. According to Andrey Purgin, Fyodor Sergeyev (1883–1921) is author of tricolor, which is used as flag of DPR and flag of organisation «Donetsk Republic». See video from Supreme consil of DPR where he is talking about this. So tricolor also in public domain as {{PD-old}}. Files on Commons are combined from public domain elements. Authors who made derivative works are known. You can see them in the descriptions of files. Also you can see sources od public domain elements in descriptions. Flags are authentic. See descriptions of blazons and prooflinks in wikipedia articles: ru:Флаг Донецкой Народной Республики, ru:Флаг Луганской Народной Республики, ru:Герб Донецкой Народной Республики, ru:Герб Луганской Народной Республики; see coats of arms and flag on official site of DPR. See examples of using: , , --Butko (talk) 12:14, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
>Fyodor Sergeyev (1883–1921) is author of tricolor.
which of them? There are a lot of different flags. And I don't think a terrorist Andrey Purgin is the authority source anyway.
>Also you can see sources od public domain elements in descriptions.
But we can't see sources of additional elements. It's because they came not from free images. --Yakiv Gluck (talk) 01:50, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Судя по вашим именам, все вы говорите по-русски, нет смысла что-то переводить. Вопрос вот в чем: стоит ли вообще обсуждать авторское право и подлинность предлагаемых к удалению символов ДНР, ЛНР и организации "Донецкая республика" в контексте истинных мотивов участника Yakiv Gluck, ярко выраженных словосочетанием "terrorist Andrey Purgin". При таких мотивах всегда найдется сто причин что-то выставлять на удаление, было бы желание. А что-то доказывать в таких ситуациях - зря тратить время, ибо какие-то авторские права на символы Донбасса, равно как и подлинность этих символов автора инициативы удаления изображений на самом деле не интересуют. Это совершенно очевидно.
P.S> Ну, кстати, вот это изображение: File:Flag of the Donetsk People's Republic.svg действительно можно удалить, ибо такого флага у ДНР действительно никогда не было, также у ЛНР никогда не было вот такого флага: File:Flag of the Lugansk People's Republic.svg (был похожий флаг с белым орлом со скипетром и державой) --Nicolay Sidorov (talk) 13:31, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Nicolay, rather than questioning any contributor's good or bad faith in nominating these flags for deletion, I think this has provided an opportunity to demonstrate that COPYVIO is inapplicable for this series of flags and emblems and be done with it. This has been a yo-yo issue for some time with renominations cropping up every few months. It's been demonstrated that copyright is a non-issue and, on the strength of this being demonstrated, a final decision will mean that we don't have to revisit it yet again. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:32, 7 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
 Keep there are sources. --Panam2014 (talk) 13:05, 20 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
 Keep They are reliably sourced and verifiable. They're most certainly not a random collection of original research signifiers. Every article they're used on has had multiple editors checking on updates, ensuring that they're correct. The RS and V is amply evidenced on the talk pages and talk page archives of English language Wikipedia. As regards the question of being derivative works, I believe that Butko's list of arguments are compelling reasons for retaining them, and that this should supersede any concerns over some 'unknown quantity' copyright violation. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:13, 24 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
ok, all these images are verifiable. Good. But then all of them are the copies of copyrighted non-free images. Because all of these "symbols" are results of [creative] work of some [unknown] authors. And all of them consist of not only free elements. --Yakiv Gluck (talk) 01:31, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, I can't re-render Micky Mouse and claim copyright: he's already under copyright by Disney (or whatever that multinational distribution company call themselves now). The emblems used for the DPR and LPR, as examples, are pre-existing, non-copyrighted emblems created way before the concept of 'copyright' even existed. Re-rendering such symbols doesn't give the artist copyright over the symbol. No one has reinvented the symbols, just replicated them... and replication of symbols or emblems that's been around for a few hundred years can't be a copyright violation, even if they're made up of a few composite emblems/symbols. It's like saying that the re-rendering of a rune or a Cyrillic letter of the alphabet is a copyright violation... In fact, even the fonts used are freeware fonts. I hope that makes sense. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:18, 25 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

'Kept Per discussion. Drawing a flag or a coat of arms from a blazon does not infringe on previous renderings from the same blazon. See COM:COA .     Jim . . . . (Jameslwoodward) (talk to me) 11:37, 16 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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