Commons:Deletion requests/Commons:Wiki Loves Monuments 2013 in Armenia & Nagorno-Karabakh

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Commons:Wiki Loves Monuments 2013 in Armenia & Nagorno-Karabakh

Nagorno-Karabakh is not a country and it's a part of Azerbaijan Republic but not Armenia. It's a separatist region and it can not participate as a part of Armenia in WLM, because as we can see from wikilovesmonuments.org only countries are participating. Commons:Wiki Loves Monuments 2013 in Armenia page exists. Wertuose (talk) 05:10, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

This is pointless. Only countries? Antarctica is participating to WLM as well. Besides Belgium is participating to WLM together with Luxembourg. Is there a problem with that? No. Because WLM is not about political borders, but cultural heritage and free media. The reason why we help Wikimedians from NK to participate to WLM is because we think it's important to have photos of their heritage in Wikimedia Commons. Unfortunately Wikimedians from Azerbaijan don't have any contact with Wikimedians from NK and it seems that they are not ready to work together. --vacio 14:37, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

WLM is aimed to cultural objects, not to the state power, state administrative or politics. Population of Nagorno-Karabakh is 95% Armenian, also I see some logic in its joining to Armenian contest. Such solution doesn't impedes Azerbaijans to create a list of monuments and upload images from Nagorno-Karabakh also in the Azerbaijan contest. See also Commons:Wiki Loves Monuments 2011 CAT, Commons:Wiki Loves Monuments 2012 CAT (Andorra & Catalan areas) which covered parts of three states (Spain, France, Italy). Instead of useless quarrels, both nations should rather create a list of monuments and taken and upload photos of monuments of Nagorno-Karabakh. --ŠJů (talk) 19:16, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

If your arguments just based on the fact that some territories participated in WLM together with some other territories then you're making a great mistake. Because all that territories are de-jure and de-facto recognized parts or partners of that territories or countries. But Nagorno-Karabakh is disputed area between Armenia and Azerbaijan and it's occupied by armenian armed forces for over than 20 years and all Azerbaijani population expelled. Nagorno-Karabakh is not recognized by any state in the world even by Armenia. Nagorno-Karabakh is recognized by UN as a territory of Azerbaijan Republic and the flag you are using for the territory is unrecognized attribute of the separatist regime of that territory. So if you want Nagorno-Karabakh to participate in WLM and if you think that WLM is not political but cultural event, then I think it should not be a problem for you to add all the Nagorno-Karabakh cultural heritage photos to Commons:Wiki Loves Monuments 2013 in Azerbaijan project.

P.S. Antarctica is a continent with a special treaty signed by 50 UN member countries. It's a special region on Earth. It needs to be explored like Moon or Mars. So Antarctica and Nagorno-Karabakh are beyond comparison. Wertuose (talk) 20:25, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree that relations between nations can be complicated and painful. My country has also some experiences with relations - between Czechs, Germans, Jews, Gypsies - with occupations, wars etc. However, WLM is about photos of monuments, not about political recognition of regimes. From the point of WLM, double coverage of the region means twofold number of photos. The expelled people can upload also photos from the history of the region and its monuments, the current inhabitants can have better access to the monuments nowadays. No need to introduce grudge into the contest. --ŠJů (talk) 22:37, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

 Comment I wish less politics and more free will in Commons. Let the people of Nagorno-Karabakh themselves decide, do they want to participate in WLM with Armenians or with Azers. Taivo (talk) 20:40, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

 Comment Is this really the right venue to decide this, now that WLM is already ongoing? The question is: does this WLM contest actually exist, or not? darkweasel94 05:08, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

@Taivo, people of Nagorno-Karabakh is not just those people who live in that territory nowadays. As I mentioned above Azerbaijani population was expelled from their lands 20-22 years ago and it's more than 50 thousand people from Nagorno-Karabakh and more than 200 thousand from other occupied territories which borders with Nagorno-Karabakh, so this people can't participate in this project, because they have no contact with occupied territories, they can't enter there and take photos. So it's just a provocation by armenian users and following the idea that WLM is not a political but cultural project let's delete Nagorno-Karabakh flag and it's name from the project name. Wertuose (talk) 08:16, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

 Comment Sorry, I did not say, what I mean. I wanted to say: let contributors of Nagorno-Karabakh himself decide, do they participate with Armenia or with Azerbaidzhan. If they are almost all Armenians, then it is logical to let them join Armenia. Taivo (talk) 16:14, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

 Comment There is no problem to include the area of Nagorno-Karabakh to two or more local contests. However, the page Commons:Wiki Loves Monuments 2013 in Armenia & Nagorno-Karabakh contains only a map of Armenia and Commons:Lists of European Monuments/Armenia & Nagorno-Karabakh and hy:ՀՀ պատմության և մշակույթի անշարժ հուշարձանների ցանկ seems also not to include monuments of Nagorno-Karabakh. Monument lists of the Azerbaijan contest seems to cover Nagorno-Karabakh. --ŠJů (talk) 18:44, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh, thanks for bringing this forward. Actually the lists of monents of Nagorno-Karabakh is being created Armenian Wikipedia (we are almost done). I just forgot to add the NK map here in our Commons page. The list that we are making, is based on a list that we have received through the Ministery of Culture of Nagorno-Karabakh. It is the official list of state monuments in this republic with coordinates and other important data. It includes app. 5.000 monuments (the list on Azebaijani Wikipedia containst no more than 20-30 monuments from NK). --vacio 08:16, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

@Taivo, I have many friends from Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan. They were born there in 1980's or after occupation. They are azerbaijanians, some of them also wikipedians, they can participate in WLM with photos of Azerbaijani cultural heritage except Nagorno-Karabakh. So what can you advice them? I can't understand why this deletion request is still not satisfied. Because it's obvious that this project name is just an attempt to demonstrate political convictions of some users. Everyone knows that both of armenian and azerbaijani users want to show their superiority on each other. So I think this is an another attempt by users from Armenia. Wertuose (talk) 04:48, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the point of mentioning a conflict of 20 years ago here. I know a lot of people who fled from Sumgait or Baku in the same time as the Azerbaijani minority fled from Nagorno-Karabakh. Is that a good argument to exclude Azerbaijan from the contest? I really don't see the logic. Also, frankly I don't like the language you use, I understand that you have a certain POV on the political side of the story, but a more neutral wording would be much more appreciated :) --vacio 08:23, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

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Kept: This issue is not going to be decided at a deletion request. Please continue discussion on the talk page. russavia (talk) 12:47, 11 September 2013 (UTC)