Commons:Deletion requests/Category:Stroop Report
This deletion debate is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.
Nazi images are not public domain in Germany. Although these can be considered PD in the U.S. by virtue of being seized enemy property, they are not eligible for hosting on Commons. See also Commons:Deletion requests/Image:26543e.jpg. --howcheng {chat} 17:52, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Keep The images are PD in US and in Poland - country of origin and first publication. What else needs to be proven? Just being Nazi images does not prevent plenty of images in Hitler category. --Jarekt 18:19, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- The problem is that as Stroop is a German citizen, German law applies, despite the fact that the images were taken in Poland. howcheng {chat} 18:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Keep Jurgen Stroop was nor author, nor the first editor of this photos. There were made by unknown author, and first published in Poland in 1946. According to Berne Covention Art. 5. [1] the place of first publishing resolves the question of law, which should be in effect towards the photo. It is not a matter of nationality or citizenship of an unknown author ( It could be anyone from Eastern troops of SS ( Russian, Latvian, Ukrainian in the commando of Jurgen Stroop - commander of SS troops attacking Warsaw Ghetto in 1943) see- en:Holocaust, see en:Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
The question is resolved by the place of publication ( Poland).
See also: Image talk:The Bochnia massacre German-occupied Poland 1939.jpg with its final conlusions.
Best regards: Andros64 19:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Wait a second. It could not have been published in 1946 because the Stroop Report was compiled before the end of the war. During this time, can one actually say that it was published in Poland such that Polish laws would take precedence when the country was under Nazi occupation? Wouldn't German law be in effect? howcheng {chat} 22:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Unless I'm badly mistaken, Warsaw was never annexed into Germany. So country of photography = Poland. If the first country of publication is also Poland than Polish public domain law would apply, I believe? Just because, say, a Canadian manager hires a photographer of unknown nationality to take a photograph in Nigeria and publishes it in Nigeria, I don't see why Canadian law would apply. Am I missing something here? Durova 00:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- The Polish 1946 book (which I have) was obviously printed after WWII. The original report was not published, it was typed and hand-written in 2 copies, each one quite different. I believe one copy is in US and one in Polish archives.--Jarekt 13:27, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Then I don't see how German law would be relevant. Even if Poland was occupied at the time these were shot, Poland's own laws were applicable. Right? Durova 03:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Wait a second. It could not have been published in 1946 because the Stroop Report was compiled before the end of the war. During this time, can one actually say that it was published in Poland such that Polish laws would take precedence when the country was under Nazi occupation? Wouldn't German law be in effect? howcheng {chat} 22:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment
See also Image talk: Forced labor, workers captured by german police (Poland 1941).jpg with its final conclusions (according to international law - particulary the Berne Covention).
Best regards: Andros64 09:52, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- These “final conclusions” doesn't matter. As always, one of your frieds closed the discussion without any arguments and discussion about the arguments provided by other users. --Polarlys 10:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment - first POV, second - you was the only one agaist ( and perhaps one of your friends :). Third - {{PD-Polish}} is clear in this situation and it has been discussed , resolved - and confirmed many times before.
All the best:
Andros64 10:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
The country of origin rule stumbles on war cases. It seems to me that we usually look on the nationality of the photographer rather than the country were the photo was taken, see US-Gov pictures of the afghan or iraqi wars. Therefore i think that german rules have to be applied.--Wiggum 14:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- It seems to me, like we are splitting hair, arguing about set of images that were some of the most iconic and most reproduced images from WWII, and which are PD in Poland and US. If the unknown author of the photographs ever materialize to claim his copyrights, he can argue his case with Polish Archives, which are in possession of this collection and released them to PD. I do not know anything about German copyright law, but those images clearly fall within template:PD-Polish, which suppose to be valid worldwide and which explicitly covers foreign photographers published first in Poland. I am not a lawyer qualified to argue international law issues here, I just assumed that if an image clearly falls within one of PD templates, than it is safe to invest time and effort to properly research and label it, without a danger of someone coming and deleting weeks of your effort.--Jarekt 17:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, it's just a matter of whether these images are eligible for hosting on Commons. I certainly think they can be hosted locally on pl-WP and en-WP. It was just my impression from en:Wikipedia:Public domain#German World War II images and Commons:Deletion requests/Image:26543e.jpg that the home country was Germany and per Commons rules, the images need to be free in both the home country and in the U.S. It's also not a matter of "we'll do it unless we get caught"; we have principles to uphold here at Commons and all material should be subject to those principles regardless of how valuable/educational/informative they are. howcheng {chat} 20:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment ***The original ( the only one existing copy) of Jürgen Stroop report was transferred to the property of Polish State by US- Army authorities , just after Nuremburg Trials.This original is now in property of Institute for National Rememberance in Warsaw (Poland). The first publication of all photos from this document was made in Poland in 1946. The author of all photos is unknown - and for the reason he was a member of Stroop commando ( with nationality unknown - it was Germans, Latvians, Russians, Ukrainians) he is from the beginning in prosecution for participating in genocide and for this reason he will never in fact be disclosed personally.
According to Berne Convention art. 5. [2] in any case of anonymous works the law, shall to be in effect is the law of country of the first publication of photo.
For the reason - the country of publishing is Poland , the clear regulations of Polish copyright law are in effect. See {{PD-Polish}}. See discussion on enwiki about.
Best regards:
Andros64 21:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but why are you assuming that the report was never published in Germany before the end of the war? howcheng {chat} 21:56, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Keep per above. Halibutt 21:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment Answer: Because it was secret report ( made in one copy) delivered by Jurgen Stroop to his chief Heinrich Himmler in course of his duties in June 1943.
Andros64 10:08, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Keep These photos were taken and first published in Poland. So the Polish law appliaed ... Elektron 08:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment Given lack of evidence of publication in Germany, I have to favor first publication in Poland. Without evidence, the claim that an anonymous work may have previously been published in Germany is just as strong as a claim that maybe it was previously published by an unusually advanced herd of cattle. Current U.S. copyright law is practical in treating anonymous works in accordance to whatever publish date or creation date is known (see, for example title 17, chapter 3, section 302c describing conditions when an anonymous author is revealed) [3]. If anyone has reference information on similar copyright law in Poland for the time period in question, I would think it is definitive. b6miller 07:45, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know what in this sentence is unclear for you: "This image is in the public domain because according to the non-retrospective copyright law of July 10, 1952[1] of the People's Republic of Poland, all photographs by Polish photographers (or published for the first time in Poland or simultaneously in Poland and abroad) published without a clear copyright notice before the law was changed on May 23, 1994 are assumed public domain. This applies worldwide. [1] for pictures before 1952 - see similar Polish copyright law 1926-1952 (PDF file)"? Elektron 08:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Keep The author of all photos is unknown --Jaro.p 12:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Keep With respects to the editors who want to err on the side of caution, it really does look like Poland has the right to declare this material public domain. German law doesn't appear to be applicable here. Durova 12:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Keep Trang Oul 21:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Comment "The Photograph Book" (ISBN 0 7148 3937 X) is a book of 500 photographs by 500 most famous photographers. Image:Stroop Report - Warsaw Ghetto Uprising 09.jpg is chosen as a most famous picture by "Unknown" Photographer.--Jarekt 01:29, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Comment I will attempt to summaries the arguments so far:
- History of the photographs:
- All photographs in question are of Polish-Jews taken in 1943 in Poland, during Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, by unknown photographer of unknown nationality, fighting on the German side in SS unit of Jurgen Stroop. The photographer was either German or belonged to one of the Russian, Latvian or Ukrainian units operating in the ghetto.
- Photos were part of the famous Stroop Report to Himmler. The report was typed and hand written in a single official copy and different single known draft.
- "Seized as enemy property by the U.S. government and used by the Office of the U.S. Chief of Counsel for the Prosecution of Axis Criminality as evidence in the Nuremberg Trials." quote from here. As such they are considered Public Domain on English Wikipedia after long discussion here. They are also listed as public Domain by w:United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (see http://www.ushmm.org/uia-cgi/uia_doc/photos/5296 )
- In 1940's the images (and the report(s)) were given to Polish Government, which published them in a book: Stanisław Piotrowski (1948) Sprawozdanie Juergena Stroopa, Warsaw: Spółdzielnia Wydawnicza Książka no ISBN, without any copyright claims. The book is in my possession.
- Only subset of the photographs found in both versions of Stroop Report were uploaded to commons - The ones included in Piotrowski's book.
- Legal status
- The images clearly fall within scope of template:PD-Polish and as such are PD in Poland, and should be PD world-wide
- Wiki commons rules state that images have to be in public domain in US and in "Country of origin"
- Concerns were raised that the country of origin should be Germany instead of Poland, because high probability that unknown photographer was of German nationality; however, according to Berne Covention Art. 5. [4] "The country of origin shall be considered to be: (a) in the case of works first published in a country of the Union, that country". Poland has first known publication of those photographs.
I hope this should put this issue to rest. --Jarekt 16:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Kept as per all of the above. Lewis Collard! (hai thar, wut u doin) 08:41, 16 February 2008 (UTC)