Commons:Categories for discussion/2024/09/Category:Magic

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This discussion of one or several categories is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

Category:Magic

[edit]

this probably needs to be split between Category:Fantasy Art contents and actual beliefs and both cats could maybe be in one parent cat. Prototyperspective (talk) 17:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I had a look, and there is a need for some organisation here. Initial thoughts: To get an idea of where to start, I checked en: wiki, they distinguish between
  • Magic (supernatural): beliefs and actions employed to influence supernatural beings and forces
  • Magic (illusion): also known as stage magic, the art of appearing to perform supernatural feats.
  • Magical thinking: illogical conclusions based on correlated events - for which we have a category.
I think this may be a good distinction to start with when sorting through this. Other main category under "Magic" could be Magic in fiction rather than "fantasy art" which is a genre in itself? -- Deadstar (msg) 08:32, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for looking into it, good points.
I suggest making this a disambiguation category and having several categories in there:
Do you agree? If not, please explain why and if so could you help a bit with recategorization? Prototyperspective (talk) 09:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Prototyperspective: That looks good! One note - I realised Category:Magic (illusion) exists already, and I'm not sure changing it to "performing arts" is clearer? It can always be changed again anyway. I can help with recategorisation :) So:
-- Deadstar (msg) 08:14, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Forgot to talk about Category:Magic in art. The art could relate to the supernatural or the illusion or the fiction, so I don't think it's a subcat of Magic in fiction. Magic in fiction (i.e. related to books or stories) is more likely a subcat of Magic in art. I updated the above proposed structure. -- Deadstar (msg) 08:22, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't notice that, thanks.
  • The title of Category:Magic (illusion) is a separate subject and it could be discussed/moved at another point. Currently, it has the same name as the WP article. That article's lead has Magic, which encompasses the subgenres of illusion, stage magic, and close-up magic, among others, is a performing art in which audiences are entertained by tricks, effects, or illusions so it clearly suggests that illusion is only one subtype of it and I think performance art is a better classifier of it.
  • Good point about Magic in art. Also performance art is also an art but what is meant there in terms of the scope is visual arts. However, I had the structure as proposed as I intended for the cat scope to only be about art about magic in fiction, not e.g. medieval paintings of alleged sorcery. I suggest Category:Magic in fiction -> Category:Magic in fantasy art. An additional cat Category:Magic in art could be created as a parent cat of that which also contains artworks that are subcats of Magic (supernatural belief) or Magic (illusion).
Prototyperspective (talk) 11:37, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Prototyperspective: Oh, I see what you mean about performing arts. So what do you think of the following (and it can always be rejigged anyway):
-- Deadstar (msg) 08:11, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed this structure makes most sense, thanks. Just one change: Magic in fantasy art should not be a subcategory of "in fiction" because fantasy art isn't necessarily part of fiction, e.g. it can be just some artworks without a fictional story or fictional world. (Some Middle-earth fan art works would be in both cats.) Whether or not in fiction cats are adequately placed as subcats of in art cats would be a larger scope discussion for another time. Often, at least in many languages, "art" is understood as to refer to visual arts like sculptures and paintings even when things like novels and worldbuilding are also art – one could however address this by having a cat like "Magic in visual arts" as a subcat of Magic in art. Prototyperspective (talk) 18:01, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

<----undenting

I think we agree. Let's get started :) -- Deadstar (msg) 12:27, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Prototyperspective: In related matters - do you think these categories should be merged? Category:Incantations and Category:Magic words. Also pinging @Taylor 49: who marked it as a possible dupe. I think they may be? (and I would open a separate discussion page for it, but what's the merge-cat template?!) Thanks -- Deadstar (msg) 08:36, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mergers are also discussed with the CfD ("for discussion") template. I don't think they are duplicate since they have separate ENWP articles but probably one should be in the category of the other. Prototyperspective (talk) 12:45, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for pinging. Indeed there are not only 2, but at least 3 articles on en wikipedia:
I still propose that Category:Incantations and Category:Magic words should be merged. Those who claim that they are different are kindly asked to elaborate on the difference between them. My principle is still: Can you establish a rule that can be followed, and gives answer to the question "Should I put the object into cat A only, cat B only, or both?" If objects seem to be distributed purely randomly into those two, then they probably should be merged. Existence of 2 or 3 or even more articles on en wikipedia is a fact that cannot be changed soon or easily, but does not stipulate existence of same number of cats.
Category:Magic is indeed messy. Agree into splitting it into Category:Magic (supernatural belief) for widespread belief but inherently impossible phenomena, and either Category:Magic (performing arts) (Category:Magic (performance art)) or Category:Magic (illusion) for illusion of magic but phenomena in fact perfectly in accordance with natural laws. Those two should link to each other but NOT be subcat/parent of each other. Everything else should be subcat of one of those two. I can see that both Category:Magic (performing arts) and Category:Magic (illusion) already exist. Is there a difference between them that be be defined reliably, or can they be merged too? Taylor 49 (talk) 17:56, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for joining in Taylor 49 - Just with regard to your point about performance art/illusion - Prototyperspective made the following point above, explaining that they are not the same, and I agreed with the assessment and created Category:Magic (performing arts) as the main category: The title of Category:Magic (illusion) is a separate subject and it could be discussed/moved at another point. Currently, it has the same name as the WP article. That article's lead has Magic, which encompasses the subgenres of illusion, stage magic, and close-up magic, among others, is a performing art in which audiences are entertained by tricks, effects, or illusions so it clearly suggests that illusion is only one subtype of it and I think performance art is a better classifier of it. No further insights from me re: incantations. -- Deadstar (msg) 18:14, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding incantations why don't you discuss this on Wikipedia? There more people see it and may elaborate. Prototyperspective (talk) 19:33, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is now ok for the moment, category:Magic words is now under Category:Incantations. If you feel strongly about this, @Taylor 49: , perhaps open a cfd for Magic words? The relevant parts of this discussion can be pasted there. -- Deadstar (msg) 09:14, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Original move mostly ✓ Done per above discussion. Should Category:Magic actually be a disambiguation category? -- Deadstar (msg) 11:38, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

YES. ✓ Done. I still think that Category:Magic (performing arts) and Category:Magic (illusion) is the same thing, but I do not intend to merge them now. Taylor 49 (talk) 15:24, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks all! -- Deadstar (msg) 15:27, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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