Commons:Categories for discussion/2020/02/Category:ČSTV

Category:ČSTV

	Category:ČSTV	Move to/Rename as	Category:Czechoslovak Union of Physical Education
	Category:ČSTV	Move to/Rename as	Category:Československý svaz tělesné výchovy
	Spell out words in category names; will be immediately clear to a much larger number of users
	Josh (talk) 19:48, 13 February 2020 (UTC) (revised) Josh (talk) 01:40, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

•  Oppose @Joshbaumgartner: Proper names should be not ad hoc translated if the English version is not widely established. Generally, we don't traslate Einstein to Onestone, nor Belarus to White Russia, to make the names "immediately clear to a much larger number of users". On the contrary, such translations make the identity of named subjects more hidden. As you can see in the contained images, the organization was known primarily under this abberviation. If you can see a logo or title "ČSTV" in any photo, you don't need to know Czech to understand that the category ČSTV is the right category for the photo. The relation between "ČSTV" and "Czechoslovak Union of Physical Education" is more hidden and less clear. The full name a bit vary (the words "a sportu" sometimes were used and sometimes not), while the abberviation was widely used, stabilized and very known brand (see here or here). The proposed English translation can help as an additional explanation, but definitely doesn't help to identify the organization. Similarly, the Czechoslovak national bus operator was very known as ČSAD, and this abreviation was very rarely read as full words. Similarly as en:NASA is widely internationally known under this abbreviation, and less under its full name. Some organizations as cs:Čedok or cs:Svazarm were named always as abbreviations, although they have also their explanations (Československá cestovní a dopravní kancelář, Svaz pro spolupráci s armádou). en:LEGO is also never translated to English as "Play Well" to be "immediately clear". Nobody would recognize the brand under such translation. The Danish abbreviation LEGO is more clear for all, although hardly anybody knows origin and original meaning of the name. ČSTV is very similar case. "ČSTV" was on cards and badges and hiking fingerposts, not "CUPE". --ŠJů (talk) 23:17, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Then Category:Československý svaz tělesné výchovy a sportu or Category:Československý svaz tělesné výchovy if it's a formal name. - Themightyquill (talk) 07:45, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

@ŠJů and Themightyquill: I am fine with that. Any problem with the updated proposal above? Josh (talk) 01:39, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

@Joshbaumgartner: As explained above, the full name a bit vary (the words "a sportu" sometimes were used and sometimes not), while the abberviation was widely used, stabilized and very known brand (see here or here). Note that even on the membership card, the full name of the organization is not mentioned at all. Similarly, the Czechoslovak national bus and truck operator was widely known as ČSAD, and this abbreviation was very rarely read as full words. Some organizations as cs:Čedok or cs:Svazarm were named always as abbreviations, although they have also their explanations (Československá cestovní a dopravní kancelář, Svaz pro spolupráci s armádou). ČSTV is very similar case. "ČSTV" was on cards and badges and hiking fingerposts (i.e. on most of images which would be categorized here). It's not very practical to force users to first look up the literal meaning of that acronym somewhere if they want to categorize something.

But it is true that for the younger generations who did not experience and remember the communist regime, it may not be so self-evident anymore, and they could confuse this abbreviation with, for example, Czechoslovak Television (ČST). Thus, the category could be moved to Category:Československý svaz tělesné výchovy and a soft redirect from the abberivation should be left. Btw., the logo and the abbreviation was inherited and used also by "Český svaz tělesné výchovy" (1990–2013) but IMHO there is no content to be categorized from this period yet – the category was originally intended to cover both periods of the brand, the Czechoslovak one as well the Czech one, continuously. --ŠJů (talk) 02:09, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

@ŠJů: Well it is true that brands are an acceptable exception to the 'no abbreviations' rule if said brands are better recognized/publicized in their abbreviated form--see Category:NBC. Especially given that in this case the CSTV was carried over for different wordings after the Velvet Revolution, I think there is a good case to be made for this category to remain unchanged. If it is renamed, I would of course want the redirect to remain in place, that makes perfect sense. I will leave the proposal up there, but I'm fine with the category remaining as is if no one else has a strong case to make for a change. Josh (talk) 02:21, 15 July 2022 (UTC)