Commons:Categories for discussion/2019/11/Category:Communes in Romania

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Category:Communes in Romania

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Summary: The subcategories of this category need a clear distinction between communes and villages.

Current situation: In Romania, villages are organized in communes, which are themselves organized in counties. Further documentation: en:Administrative divisions of Romania.

As of current date, the naming convention for Romanian communes and villages on Commons is:

  1. communes go by the following title: <commune name>, <county name>.
  2. villages go by the following title: <village name>, <county name>.
  3. multiple villages with the same name in a county are disambiguated using the commune name, e.g. <village name> (<commune name>), <county name>.

As of current date, the categorization convention for Romanian communes and villages on Commons is (with the exception of one county):

  1. communes are categorized in [[Category:Communes in <county name> County]]
  2. villages are categorized in [[Category:<commune name>, <county name>]] and [[Category:Villages in <county name> County]]

Problem: When a commune and a village (which are two distinct entities) share their names (which is almost universal, because communes are usually named based on their seat village), the same category contains files and categories related to the commune and files and categories related to the village.

Example featuring the problem: The problem is beautifully illustrated on Category:Cozmești, Iași. What happens here:

What should be done: The commune and the village should have distinct categories.

Proposed solution: A solution to this problem was already implemented for Category:Communes in Moldova by yours truly, and for Category:Communes in Suceava County by Musichistory2009. Steps:

  1. New category should be created to represent the commune: <commune name> commune, <county name>. It should be categorized in [[Category:Communes in <county name> County]]. It should contain files and categories related to the commune, as well as categories of villages belonging to said commune.
  2. The contents of existent category <village name>, <county name> should be properly re-categorized to include only files and categories regarding the village. Category should be categorized in [[Category:<commune name> commune, <county name>]] and [[Category:Villages in <county name> County]].
  3. The Wikidata item for commune should be updated with the newly created commune category: <commune name> commune, <county name>.
  4. To the Wikidata item for village, links to the <village name>, <county name> category should be added (they are currently set at the commune's Wikidata item).
  5. Wherever possible, commonscat templates should be corrected or added in Wikipedia articles.

Example featuring the solution: Category:Bosanci commune, Suceava. What happens here:

  • Category is linked to the Wikidata item about the commune (d:Q12724565). The Wikidata item about the village (d:Q848206) is linked to its dedicated Commons category: Category:Bosanci, Suceava.
  • Category contains files and categories related to the commune: commune's location, commune's CoA, and categories of the commune's villages.
  • Files and categories related to the village are placed in the village's dedicated category.

Community input: Please review the reported problem and suggested solution, the working examples (Category:Communes in Moldova, Category:Communes in Suceava County), and let me know whether we should put the effort to apply the solution and, if yes, is there something to add/alter to the solution. Thanks. Gikü (talk) 11:38, 25 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is something I have in plan for 4 years, I'd be happy if this happens. Relevant previous discussions/work: ro:Discuție_Proiect:Localitățile_din_România#La_Commons and User_talk:Strainubot#Categories --Strainu (talk) 12:08, 25 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I created the category in 2011 to support categorizing a downstream image geographically; I claim no insight into the political organization of Romania and have no views on the correct outcome. Cheers, Mackensen (talk) 16:54, 25 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have no particular problem with the proposal, but the "problem" as stated isn't a problem. A church in a village in a commune is also in the commune. So putting the church directly in the commune category isn't a problem (unless the village subcategory exists). A problem is if we have a category for the county and a category for the village, but a church outside the village goes into the village category with the same name. - Themightyquill (talk) 13:29, 26 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Themightyquill: I agree, we should not get too invested with categorizing trivial items like a landscape image; but eventually a commune's location map would find itself in a different category than village's entrance sign if the solution is adopted. Gikü (talk) 00:34, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Gikü: One tweak I would make would be instead of using the format <commune name> commune, <county name>, I would use <commune name> (commune), <county name>, as 'commune' is strictly disambiguation and so should be in (). Josh (talk) 19:17, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshbaumgartner: Thank you for the input. I feel that brackets in this context are reserved to disambiguate a homonymous villages between communes in the same county (<village name> (<commune name 1>), <county name> vs <village name> (<commune name 2>), <county name>). What I also think, but am not too sure of it, is that 'commune' is not exactly disambiguation here and brackets are thus not needed, just like they are not needed for Category:Alba County. Gikü (talk) 00:34, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Gikü: In the case of Category:Alba County, the word 'County' is part of the name (hence it is capitalized), and thus as you point out it does not need (). Were it to be 'Alba county' (lower case county), in that the name is really 'Alba' with 'county' added to describe it further, it should be named 'Alba (county)' (if there were other Albas). So really it comes down to that with these communes. Take the example of Category:Cozmești, Iași. The name is simply Cozmești per en and ro labels on Wikidata, so the 'commune' part should be in () as 'Cozmești (commune)'. This is also true for the village (Cozmești (Q2718462)), which should be 'Cozmești (village)'. ', Iasi' can be added if there are other Cozmestis out there to distinguish from. Now, if both Wikidata items and both Enwiki and Rowiki (and the other wikis I saw that have articles for them) are wrong about the names of these places, and indeed the proper names are 'Cozmești Commune' and 'Cozmești Village', then you would be right in that they should be written that way without (). Of course, in that case, the Wikidata entries and articles on the various Wikis should be changed to reflect that reality, and probably need a more concrete reference clarifying the names to make such a change. As for the case where you have two villages with the same name in the same county (different communes), just use '<village>, <commune1>, <county>' and '<village>, <commune2>, <county>' to differentiate them, no need for () at all. Josh (talk) 00:58, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshbaumgartner: For uniformization purposes, would you advocate for applying such a standard to the subcategories of Category:Communes in Moldova and Category:Communes in Suceava County as well? (e.g. Category:Broșteni (Drăgușeni), Suceava -> Category:Broșteni, Drăgușeni, Suceava; Category:Drăgușeni commune, Suceava -> Category:Drăgușeni (commune), Suceava; Category:Drăgușeni, Suceava -> Category:Drăgușeni (village), Suceava.) Gikü (talk) 01:27, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Gikü: Yes, I would agree with those changes. Josh (talk) 01:47, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Joshbaumgartner: 's suggestions make sense to me. We might allow more input before applying this to Moldova, though it looks like Gikü has created a lot of that organizational structure. -- Themightyquill (talk) 07:02, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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